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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 18 2009,17:30) T8…….The problem you have with the word (through) it can equally be (FOR) or (by) the same word is used interchangeably through out scripture as i recall.
To Gene.Colossians 1:15-16
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.You say that it means by or for. Well the above verse has 'by, for, through'. We also know that it wouldn't say “all things have been created for Him and for Him, would it?
So given your thinking, you appear to be trapped by your own understanding, because you must believe that:
- it cannot be 'by' because you do not believe that he actually created the universe.
- It cannot be 'through', because you have already stated as much.
The problem you have is that you need to make them all say “for”, but that is impossible because “for” is already used, so what of the other/s?
Now if you are open minded enough try the following search results. They list scriptures with the words “Christ AND through”. Notice that they all make sense as “through” and not much sense as “for”.
http://www.biblegateway.com/quickse….sion=31
e.g., John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.For the law was for Moses? No the law was for God's people and came through Moses. Likewise truth isn't for Christ rather through him for us.
Can you see from this example at least one reason why I cannot accept your teaching/doctrine and not just me Gene, but others here too.
T8……..my point was the the word Through can be equally exchanged for by or for as the GREEK Shows, So why would you say through , when others scriptures show plainly GOD said He created everything (ALONE and BY HIMSELF), so logic would tell you they were forcing the text to force the idea of Preexistence of Jesus as Trinitarians believe. You cant have it both way T8, This was a major issue with you and WJ, and in this case WJ was right in saying there was no one with GOD when He created everything, his problem is he thinks Jesus was that one GOD who did it, which we know is not true. T8 you cant have it both ways, but if you realize GOD did create every thing (FOR) Man and that includes Jesus also , then the scripture firts the complete Bible.
Love to you and yours T8…………………………gene
I did look up the Greek word “eis” that is translated “for” and found out it has several possible translations which include 'into, unto, to, towards, for, among ' Of course your bias like that of the translators will determine which one of the choices you use.
A possible translation of Colossians 1:16 would thus be:
Quote 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created 'on account of' Him and 'to' Him. I have no idea what the first two words, “for by”, were translated from though Gene seems to be saying they were translated from one word that has either the definition “for” or “by”. If someone word kindly supply that word or words I would be appreciative.
I do have a question though and that is why do you think this statement applies to Jesus since the various translators of different versions of the bible seem to have trouble deciding what the proper English punctuation is and proper English punctuation is how we know who the pronoun “he” refers to.
You really do need to be inspired by God to properly translate scripture and the writers of the NIV do not express confidence that they are so guided. Considering they are an alliance of different sects with different doctrines I would not believe them if they so claimed. In fact I do not believe anyone based on their own claims about themselves but seek a gospel that is both rational and one that does not contradict. The trinity doctrine is full of contradictions as is anyone that claims Jesus is God. That is why even its supports claim it is beyond reason.
I was reading the bible this morning and God led me to this scripture which is certainly relevant to this thread as it tells us what the title Son of God means.
Quote Romans 1:2-4(NIV) the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now I am skeptical about the translators’ choice to use the word “nature” as Trinitarians have the math logically absurd doctrine that Jesus is 100% man and 100%. It is absurd because someone can only be 100% total and not 200%. Still that is not the issue here. This scripture clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God because he is possessed by the Holy Spirit.
This is confirmed elsewhere with the words:
Quote Romans 8:14-17(NIV): because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Since Jesus is declared The Son by the Holy Spirit that lives in him, so too are those who choose to believe in him declared sons by the Holy Spirit they receive through belief that he is the Messiah.
To get back to the Trinitarians and their belief in the dual nature of Jesus they are obviously confused about Jesus and the Holy Spirit as they attribute both the nature of Jesus himself and the nature of the Holy Spirit to Jesus alone. They therefore get 200 percent because there is two individuals who each have 100% of a particular nation and not one being with 200%. I hope they abandon that false doctrine and come to the truth that is in God.
Hi KW,
Rom1
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Surely this reflects what Peter said in Acts 2
” 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. “
And Ps2
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Also Prov 30.4
Altogether embarrassing retrospective proof to the Israelites that they had missed the expected Messiah, the Holy one of God, the Son of God.
Knowledge about who Jesus is does not save anyone but obedience to his command that we must be born again.
Quote Nick Hassan: Surely this reflects what Peter said in Acts 2
I will have disagree with you on that one as we know “the wages of sin is death” and since Jesus “did not sin even though he was tempted as we are” his death was truly unjust and so death could not keep a hold on him. It is true that he lived by the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit that God gave him and that allowed him to live a life without sinning and it is the same Spirit that makes him God’s Son but otherwise I do not see a link.
Quote Nick Hassan: Altogether embarrassing retrospective proof to the Israelites that they had missed the expected Messiah, the Holy one of God, the Son of God.
Psalms 2:6-12 and Proverbs 30:4 are indeed testimony that God has a Son who he made King but I do not see how that explains what the title Son of God means.
I will have to say though that the words from Romans 1 and 8 I quoted earlier do give another way of looking as what the angel said to Mary in Luke 1:35 though I would not of reached that conclusion by reading the NIV translation of that verse alone. In fact I had always assumed it meant the Jesus had no father but God. The same is true of Adam though and so that interpretation would not make him unique while one based on Romans 1 would.
Quote Luke 1:35(NIV): 35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Quote Nick Hassan: Knowledge about who Jesus is does not save anyone but obedience to his command that we must be born again.
I have to disagree since believe in certain knowledge about Jesus is necessary at the time of being immersed in water. The question is whether belief in this particular knowledge is necessary. All I can say is that you must believe God’s promise through Jesus that you will be set completely free from servitude to sin upon being immersed in water for the miracle of being reborn in spirit to take place. If lack of knowledge damages that faith then it can be costly. Obviously some people were led astray to strange beliefs about Jesus and I see no evidence they were instructed to get reimmersed though they were corrected.
Paul asked the question “did you receive the Holy Spirit when you were immersed”. If the answer is “no” them you should get immersed in water with the belief of the true gospel in your heart. I have been immersed twice without such faith and can certainly say I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in my life though I strive to do God’s will. That is why I am searching for true believers and why I was attracted to Heaven.net by the article about how stopping sinning. The question I have yet to answer is whether I will find what I am looking for here or whether I need to keep looking.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 23 2009,04:50) T8……..my point was the the word Through can be equally exchanged for by or for as the GREEK Shows, So why would you say through , when others scriptures show plainly GOD said He created everything (ALONE and BY HIMSELF),
Actually the words are very similar. If I need to get from New Zealand to Canada, I will most likely pass by or through the USA.The point is that the same word by/through when searched on brings up scriptures like “through the eye of a needle”, “through one man sin entered the world, and through one man righteousness entered”.
I thought that you were arguing that God created the universe 'for' Jesus. Are you now also saying that God created the universe 'by' Jesus? If yes, how exactly do you understand that if you cannot use the word “for” which was already used in that verse I gave you?
We both believe that God created all things “for” Jesus, so no point in expanding on that one.
To kerwin.
This word is used quite a lot in scripture.
http://www.biblegateway.com/quickse….sion=31'Through' seems like a fair understanding of that word from those verses.
Also think of Eve. Did God create Eve?
Yet he did so through Adam or by Adam.My point being that if God created all things alone, then that would have to also include Eve , and yet he made her through Adam which obviously then doesn't nullify the fact that God created all things alone. Do you see my point? Only God created Eve, and he did it by or through Adam, and yet God still created Eve alone.
In case you can't see what I am saying, here is another example.
If God created my son through me and my wife, then can I claim to be the creator or am I simply the channel by which the creator created my son? And understanding this, my question to you and Gene is as follows:
“Is God the exclusive creator of my son?”
If yes, then creating 'through' or 'by' doesn't negate the fact that God created all things himself does it?
There is no contradiction is there?
T8…………While i understand what you are saying , you have to take into account GOD Said He created all things (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF. And if He did it (ALONE) then nothing else counts, so then why say He did it (through) Jesus. You say that because you are predisposed to believe Jesus preexisted. Your example of God creating Eve through Adam, does not actually work T8, because Adam had no part in the creation process He was unconscious and played no part in the process himself. And God created EVE (FOR) Adam, no by or through Him, His purpose was (FOR) ADAM. To position Jesus as playing an active role in the creation process Just is not scriptural. God alone created all thing for mankind and that includes Jesus also. If Jesus played and active role, what was it and why is it not mentioned by Him or anywhere else in scripture. They problem we have is these translation are forcing the text to lean toward the trinitarian ideologies of Preexistence of Jesus. T8 if you would just back off of the whole thing of prexistence and Juts take another unbiased look , it would all fall into place for you, with what you know you should easly be able to see it. God did not send a prexisting Son Here from some superhuman existence, there would be no purpose for Him to do that. And if he did we could never say He was exactly like us, that just wouldn't be true and so a separation would always exist between Jesus and Us. It simple would make no sense for God to do that T8.
IMOlove and peace to you and yours………………………….gene
Kerwin regarding your original post:
Hebrews 1:1-2(NIV) “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.”
These verses can only be taken one way unless you spin the verses to mean something else. Every English version of the Scriptures say the same thing. That being that Christ was there in the beginning. In fact, all through out the Scriptures we see that Christ was there in the beginning. You speak of Hebrews telling us about Jesus' ministry and him not being able to lead Moses, but you leave out the fact that if he was leading Moses out he was not here on earth in a flesh body. He was not here ministering.
Secondly, you say, “we also know there is more to the title Son of God than not sinning. The more is that Jesus is the archetype of a righteous man upon which all others are derived. I would also be fair to say he is the archetype of man which is why the title Son of Man is also appropriate.” You are so wrong and its sad. He is the Son of God, because he is the Son of God. He is the one and only Son of God, we are basically adopted into the family and become sons of God. (Note the Capitalization of Son)
Thirdly, when Jesus calls himself I Am he is calling himself God. Just as God told Moses that he was the I Am, so Christ is saying the same. That is why the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Their again is not other way to take that verse, unless you take it out of context to mean something else, which you have done here. Jesus is God in the flesh, and the Scriptures wholeheartedly agree, if you read all the Scriptures and not just pick and choose, like a “one verse Vern does.”
We have example after example of Christ being the only Son of God. Remember a little verse from Sunday School, John 3:16 ring a bell, or Matthew 3:17 when the Spirit comes upon Jesus like a dove and a voice from heaven? What does the voice say remember? “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Jesus was more then a human man, if is was only human then he would not be perfect. Romans 3:23 says “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” speaking of all human kind, and verse 24 says, “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”. So if Christ is only a man, then how can he save himself through his own blood, since Messiah had to be with out blemish or blame? Truth is because he IS the true Son of God, who is worthy of our praise and someday every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus as Lord and Savior! What a Glorious day that will be!
————–
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32 KJV)The Truth:
Quote Every English version of the Scriptures say the same thing. That being that Christ was there in the beginning.
So you do not believe in the immaculate conception since conception means “the event that occurred at the beginning of something” according to Princeton WordSearch 3.0. He either began in Mary’s womb or before not both as Trinitarians and others insist. God is not illogical no matter how much you accuse Him of it.
The Truth:
Quote In fact, all through out the Scriptures we see that Christ was there in the beginning.
If Jesus was the Spirit of God then I would agree with you but he is not the Spirit of God though the Spirit of God does dwell in him and through him the Spirit of God will come and live in those who follow the true gospel of Jesus our Lord..
The Truth:
Quote You speak of Hebrews telling us about Jesus' ministry and him not being able to lead Moses, but you leave out the fact that if he was leading Moses out he was not here on earth in a flesh body. He was not here ministering.
Why do you say that the angel of God that led the Hebrew people through the desert was not ministering?
The Truth:
Quote : He is the Son of God, because he is the Son of God.
Using a word or term to describe itself is rather silly to say the least. Romans 1 tells us that He is the Son of God because the Spirit of God lives in him and elsewhere it tells those that truly believe they are sons because through faith is Jesus the Messiah they have the Spirit of God live in them.
The Truth:
Quote Thirdly, when Jesus calls himself I Am he is calling himself God. Just as God told Moses that he was the I Am,
This is one of those silly arguments trinity supporters come up with. I suppose you believe every time someone states “I am” in scripture they are saying that they are God.
The Truth:
Quote Jesus was more then a human man, if is was only human then he would not be perfect.
So you do not believe that Jesus was tempted even as we are but without sin. In fact you are blaming God for being unjust as He created man and if man cannot do as God commands it is God’s fault. Scripture actually states we will be set free from servitude to sin through faith in Jesus Christ. John 8:34-36 and Romans 6:17-18. Believe that since Jesus did it for himself he can do it for you.
I have answered enough of your post as I do not want to go on and on and I have said enough to point out several flaws in your arguments. You have obviously allowed Satan to influence your beliefs and I hope you repent and truly seek God’s righteousness and holiness. It is for that hope that I debate what the title Son of God means since in order to stop sinning you have to believe that Jesus was tempted even as you are but without sin.
Hi TT,
You say
“Thirdly, when Jesus calls himself I Am he is calling himself God. Just as God told Moses that he was the I Am, so Christ is saying the same. That is why the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Their again is not other way to take that verse, unless you take it out of context to mean something else, which you have done here. Jesus is God in the flesh, and the Scriptures wholeheartedly agree, if you read all the Scriptures and not just pick and choose, like a “one verse Vern does.”He did say he is the Son of God.
Scripture says God was in him reconciling the world to Himself.[2Cor5]
He said he was going back to his God and to our God [jn20]God Who was in him sometimes spoke in the first person as with the rebuilding of the temple in 3 days[Jn2]
He was not in himself and going back to himself was he?
Hi KW,
You say
“Paul asked the question “did you receive the Holy Spirit when you were immersed”. If the answer is “no” them you should get immersed in water with the belief of the true gospel in your heart. I have been immersed twice without such faith and can certainly say I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in my life though I strive to do God’s will. That is why I am searching for true believers and why I was attracted to Heaven.net by the article about how stopping sinning. The question I have yet to answer is whether I will find what I am looking for here or whether I need to keep looking. “The apostle Philip baptised ithe eunuch in water but did not lay on hands.
He left that role in his ministry to others but it does show the priorities of God.We have the sure promises of Lk11 if no anointed man is able to lay hands on us.
Lk11
9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Hi TT,
You say
“We have example after example of Christ being the only Son of God.”
Jb38
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Gen6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Jb1
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.Ps89
6For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
TT………….Remember when Jesus said to Lazarus's sister ” Did i not tell you that if you only believed you would see the glory of God”, now notice what He said (immediately) after the statement, Father the only reason I said that was so they would believe that you sent me, now ask yourself why would Jesus have said that if He were GOD Himself, He said it because Had He not said that to the Father , It would appear He was allowing them to think He was the GOD that was going to raise Lazarus. So he made it clear to GOD the FATHER why He said it.
love and peace to you and yours…………….gene
Nick Hassan:
Quote The apostle Philip baptized the eunuch in water but did not lie on hands.
He left that role in his ministry to others but it does show the priorities of God.I am assuming you have gone off topic for this thread which is about what the title Son of God means and are now speaking about baptism and the laying on of hands.
From what I understand from reading scripture the laying on of hands accomplishes several things but in the instance you are speaking of it seems to be bestowing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These gifts are not the rebirth in spirit so could well be considered less important. From what I understand the laying on of hands is not always necessary as in some cases the gifts come previous to the time of baptism or even during.
I am of the opinion that at the present time God has withdrawn the gifts from mankind since scripture tells us that such a time would come and it mentioned a person who sounded like they were a true Christian who denied they were a prophet but insisted they had been a farmer since their birth.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 27 2009,05:37) TT………….Remember when Jesus said to Lazarus's sister ” Did i not tell you that if you only believed you would see the glory of God”, now notice what He said (immediately) after the statement, Father the only reason I said that was so they would believe that you sent me, now ask yourself why would Jesus have said that if He were GOD Himself, He said it because Had He not said that to the Father , It would appear He was allowing them to think He was the GOD that was going to raise Lazarus. So he made it clear to GOD the FATHER why He said it. love and peace to you and yours…………….gene
It is quite simple. He was showing them God's glory. He is part of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit, or Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ refers to himself as God many times, and is referred to as God. So when he calls himself the I am, the Alpha and Omega, or when Thomas calls him God and he does not tell him different he is not calling himself God. How about when the Pharisees are going to stone him, because they believe him to be calling himself God. Then you have him being called Emmanuel, God with us. King of kings and Lord of lords, notice the first “Lord”, it is the Greek word for the name of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 27 2009,05:25) Hi TT,
You say
“We have example after example of Christ being the only Son of God.”
Jb38
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Gen6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Jb1
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.Ps89
6For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?You have given examples of us, adopted sons. Note when speaking of Christ it is always capital “Son”, when speaking of us it is lower case “sons”. Singular and plural words are also used.
You have given examples of us, adopted sons. Note when speaking of Christ it is always capital “Son”, when speaking of us it is lower case “sons”. Singular and plural words are also used for Son and sons. Here is an example for you though:“…At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” – Matthew 3:16b-17
*notice again the singular capital “Son”
Hi KW,
Are the angelic sons shown in Jb38 adopted?Yes Jesus is the unique monogenes son but not the only son scripturally.
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