Son of God?

Participant

Hi t8,
The same as for messenger.

Number 4397
Transliteration:
mal'ak {mal-awk'}
Word Origin:
from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
TWOT:
1068a
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1

Total: 214
Definition:
messenger, representative
messenger
angel
the theophanic angel

But all messengers are not angels.

January 16, 2009 at 2:16 am#117827

Participant

To all………John was a messenger sent from God. Jesus was also a messenger sent from God to, so why do you believe Jesus prexisted and John did not. They were both messengers sent by GOD. There is no scripture showing any preexistent operation of Jesus anywhere. If there is show it, Kerwin and Meerkat both have it right, Jesus existed only in the plan of God until He was brought forth, from His brethren as moses said , not from so preexisting state, as false Christianity assumes.The Lord will raise up from among you Brethren a prophet like unto me unto Him shall you heed. Jesus was not brought forth from a preexistence as most False Christianity teaches. IMO

love and peace to all……………….gene

January 16, 2009 at 2:27 am#117828

Participant

Gene.

If the word messenger means messenger, then it doesn't have preexistence or no existence meanings built in.

January 16, 2009 at 2:27 am#117829

Participant

GB,
Indeed God did send prophets.
But then He sent His Son.

Lk20
9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.

11And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

12And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.

13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

January 16, 2009 at 2:28 am#117830

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2009,12:55)

But all messengers are not angels.

But not all mal'ak are mal'ak?

What are the 2 words you are using if the above is not the case?

January 16, 2009 at 2:34 am#117832

Participant

Hi t8,
One word but two or more meanings

Total: 214
Definition:
messenger, representative
messenger
angel
the theophanic angel

January 16, 2009 at 2:41 am#117834

Participant

OK.

And that is my point.

Translators decide which meaning we are to believe. Generally heavenly creatures are angels and human creatures are messengers, with Christ being a messenger.

But Paul teaches us to question all things and that means not relying on translators to decide the meaning for us.

It also opens up new meaning to the Angel of the Lord because that could mean Messenger of the Lord and is not necessarily pointing to a seraph or cherub.

January 16, 2009 at 2:44 am#117837

Participant

Hi t8,
Then could these speak of angels?

2 Corinthians 8:23
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Philippians 2:25
Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

January 16, 2009 at 2:47 am#117839

Participant

Hi T8,
So you agree the first messenger in Mal3 is the man John?

January 16, 2009 at 3:14 am#117850

Participant

Yes John is a man. Men can be messengers/angels.

January 16, 2009 at 3:25 am#117852

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 16 2009,13:27)

Gene.

If the word messenger means messenger, then it doesn't have preexistence or no existence meanings built in.

t8……….i agree with that also, just because you say messenger of the new covenant does not imply preexistence of any kind. T8 , brother is you go through it real so and think about what scripture says and with God's help you will come to see Jesus did not preexist in any form what soever pryer to His berth here on earth.

peace and love to you and yours…………….gene

January 16, 2009 at 3:40 am#117855

Participant

I have scriptures that say he existed. You have nothing to say that he didn't. God wouldn't require me to deny these scriptures, would he?

Jude 1:25 
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and 
authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now 
and forevermore! Amen.

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1:3 
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was
made that has been made. 

John 8:58 
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was
born, I am!"

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for
the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and 
the bright Morning Star."

Micah 5:2 
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among 
the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will 
be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from 
ancient times."

Hebrews 1:1-2 
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the 
prophets at many times and in various ways, 
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, 
whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he 
made the universe.

Philippians 2:5-11 
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality 
with God something to be grasped, 
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a 
servant, being made in human likeness. 
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself 
and became obedient to death even death on a cross! 
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave 
him the name that is above every name, 
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in 
heaven and on earth and under the earth, 
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the 
glory of God the Father.

Colossians 1:15-16 
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers 
or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

John 1:3 
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was 
made that has been made. 

Proverbs 30:4 
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has 
gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has
wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all 
the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his 
son? Tell me if you know!

Scripture is clear that he created all things through the son. It is also clear that he created all things by his Logos, so which one is it? In addition, scripture says that the Logos became flesh and it just so happens to be Jesus. So there is the answer.

God created all things through Jesus and the Logos, and Jesus is the Logos in the flesh. Can you see that Jesus was the Logos that was WITH God?

It's a no brainer. You don't need to be a scholar to see the obvious truth here.

January 16, 2009 at 4:17 am#117860

Participant

t8……..Scripture is also more clear that God Created everything by himself and alone , you know this, it has been posted here many times, How do you deal with them do you just throw them out of your bible if not then please explain them to us. Because what your saying, other scriptures say the opposite to what those scriptures say. So help us out an give us you reasons for the counter dictions. Before we move on to the rest lets deal with these first. her is just one Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the heavens (ALONE); that spreadeth abroad the earth (BY MYSELF). Lets deal wit this one t8 before we move on to others. Now (ALONE) AND (BY MYSELF). can not mean someone else can it.

If you can come to accept this scripture it will go a long ways in resolving the issue.

peace to you …………………….gene

January 16, 2009 at 4:21 am#117861

Participant

t8……..and no scripture you posted say He preexisted in any form what so ever. You have to slightly force the text to say that. Don't you think that such a issue would have been a big part of the gospel, and thoroughly explained in great detail if it were true.

peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

January 16, 2009 at 7:01 am#117879

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 16 2009,15:17)

Scripture is also more clear that God Created everything by himself and alone

OK, then how do you explain the following:

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

I think you need some balance in your argument.

Surely it is correct to say that God is the one who created all things, and yet he does that through other things. e.g., Eve was created by God but through Adam.

I wouldn't say that Adam created Eve, but that she was made through him.

Now look at what it says about Christ.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Can you see it now? Or will you stick to your pre-defined belief? Remember that the universe is older than 2000 years.

January 16, 2009 at 7:11 am#117880

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 16 2009,15:21)

peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

OK, fair enough. None of those scriptures say that he pre-existed (in that exact term).

They say:

God made the universe through him
He is before all things
Without him nothing was made that has been made.
Was in nature God and took on flesh
His origins are more than 2000 years ago
He is both the Root and the Offspring of David
So Gene. I admit to saying that it is not written that Jesus pre-existed (in that exact term), now can you come to the party and admit that it does say the above points.
Do you agree with the points or deny them?
Please let your yes be yes and no be no. After your answer, feel free to expand.
Do you agree with these points?

January 16, 2009 at 8:09 am#117881

Participant

Hi t8,
The word is translated as Messenger nearly 100 times in the OT.
How many do you think should rather be ANGEL?

January 16, 2009 at 9:27 am#117888

kerwin

Participant

Quote

T8:

Actually that is an assumption on your part.

If I was going just by the one scripture I quoted from Hebrews I agree with you since I answered the question asked and the other answer would be that Jesus was a special angel (non-human servant of God).

Quote

T8:

I have never taught that Jesus is a cherub or seraph, so in reference to them being called messengers, I am not lumping Jesus in that group.

If you look at the context of Hebrews it is obvious the writer was not speaking of human messengers. Context is how we determine what particular definition for a word is appropriate.

Let’s look further on in the same chapter of Hebrews where it is written:

Quote

Hebrews 2:5-9(NIV):

5It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
7You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
8 and put everything under his feet.”
In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

It is not angels the writer compared Jesus to but mankind so he obviously is not a special angel since this Hebrews 2:6-7 is referring to mankind in general and not Jesus specifically.

My point is that many are misinterpreting scriptures often because they do not understand the context under which a particular message was taught. I have certainly been there and sadly am probably still there on some passages though I pray that opens my mind to true understanding on them.

Take John 1:1 which is often used as evidence that Jesus is God. One question is the word “Word” even talking of Jesus or is it just speaking of God’s righteousness. Jesus is called the image of God and he is in that he reflects God’s righteousness for God lives in him just as Jesus lives in those that believe and so obey his teachings.

There is also this to consider and that is that Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb and before he was conceived an angel told her to name him Jesus.

Quote

Luke 2:21(NIV):

21On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

January 16, 2009 at 10:30 am#117890

kerwin

Participant

Quote

Seeking:

Regarding this quote, do not the following passages imply an existence prior to human conception?

They do not. We in this time are unfamiliar with the context that the listeners in the first century were completely familiar with and language can be tricky even when you know the context. The question to be asked is whether these passages can be interpreted differently.

I addressed the ones from John in my post to T8 so I see no need to address them again here so let’s look at another one.

Quote

COL.1:13-17(NIV):

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The English in this scripture is atrocious at least as far as pronoun use and/or punctuation. In the first sentence “he” is obviously God and “Son” is being acted on while in the second sentence “He” becomes that “Son” and for the third we switch back to God. We know the second sentence is speaking of Jesus because God is being acted on. The third sentence is more vague as is the forth since we do not know whether “he” is Jesus or God though I would say it is God because of Acts 17:24-28. I am not good enough at English myself to describe how to more appropriately write such a complicated paragraph. I looked at other versions of scripture and they disagree on punctuation use. I thing the New Jerusalem bible translates this scripture more correctly but then my English is not up to the challenge.

Quote

COL.1:13-17(New Jerusalem Bible):

12 giving thanks with joy to the Father who has made you able to share the lot of God's holy people and with them to inherit the light. 13 Because that is what he has done. It is he who has rescued us from the ruling force of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son that he loves, 14 and in him we enjoy our freedom, the forgiveness of sin. 15 He is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation, 16 for in him were created all things in heaven and on earth: everything visible and everything invisible, thrones, ruling forces, sovereignties, powers — all things were created through him and for him. 17 He exists before all things and in him all things hold together,

The only question that remains is what the writer meant by stating Jesus is the First-born of creation. We know he is certainly the first born of the new creation since he is the one by which everyone else is created. I also mentioned he is the archetype of creation which could also be referred to as the first born of creation. Still I favor a third possibility which is the writer was merely stating that Jesus is the Messiah. I favor that possibility because it is a major message of the gospel and it includes both the other possibilities. I cannot say that your own possibility is incorrect except that is does not seem to jar with other scriptures such as Hebrews insistence appeared in these late dates.

Quote

Hebrews 9:26(NIV):

26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

January 16, 2009 at 5:13 pm#117895