Son of God?

[kerwin]

From reading what you have written about Jesus and his title Son of God I get a different definition from scripture. You seem to believe he is a special being that preexisted his conception on earth. I read your argument to support your belief but have to disagree since the scriptures you quoted can be interpreted in a different way than you seem to understand them.

Hebrews tells us quite plainly that Jesus did not start his ministry in these last days so he could hardly have been the one to lead Mosses.

Quote (“Hebrews 1:1-2(NIV)”]1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways @ 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.[/QUOTE)

We are told that it was an angel of God who led the Hebrew people and that God was in a pillar of cloud. Exodus wrote: 19 Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel's army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them,

We know that Jesus is not and angel because we are told just that in Hebrews.

Quote (“Hebrews 1:5(NIV)]5For to which of the angels did God ever say @ “You are my Son; today I have become your Father[a)

“? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

We know from scripture that a man credited with righteousness is called a “son of god” and Jesus was more than credited with righteousness but so are the angels that have not fallen. Since we know this we also know there is more to the title Son of God than not sinning. The more is that Jesus is the archetype of a righteous man upon which all others are derived. I would also be fair to say he is the archetype of man which is why the title Son of Man is also appropriate.

This is the idea that Jesus was attempting to impart to the Jews who idolized Abraham when he said “before Abraham I am.”

[SEEKING]

Regarding this quote, do not the following passages imply an existence prior to human conception?

“You seem to believe he is a special being that preexisted his conception “

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (COL.1:13-17NIV)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. (JN.1:1-2)
on earth.”

JN 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

JN.1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……….i believe you have it right , where it say that is was Christ that followed them in the wilderness< (the word Christ is Christos or anointing and the angle had the anointing on He also, this verse was not talking about Jesus the Christ, but just the anointing, which is may times confused with Jesus in the new testament, when in fact its not meaning Jesus at all but the Spirit of GOD.

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi and welcome KW,
SON OF GOD is just a title for Jesus?
Lk1
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

[meerkat]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2009,07:14)

Hi and welcome KW, SON OF GOD is just a title for Jesus? Lk1 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Nick,

That says Jesus will be “called” the Son of God.

The meaning of calling is G2564
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): – bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

It seems to align with what kerwin is saying.

I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God – however I believe scripture says that it happened after Jesus was anointed, appointed, that he was not pre-existant as a being, he was always in the plan that God had.

If as you imply that Jesus was already existing as the Son of God spiritually, Mary would have been told that her future child the Son of God and not bidden, named, called forth.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……….All who have the Spirit of GOD and sons and daughters of GOD. AS scripture plainly says, “no you not that your (ARE) the sons of GOD”.

peace and love and welcome to the site………………………gene

[meerkat]

Hi Kerwin,

I agree with what you are saying, good post.

I have noticed that in the phrase interpreted as “Before Abraham was, I am” the word was is actually G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): – arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

It has the idea of things coming to pass not a past tense as was is, so what Jesus was saying in John 8:58 was before Abraham becomes, I will be – it has more to do with the spiritual context of Jesus being the first fruits, then Abraham will be raised after Jesus not before – that is why Abraham rejoiced to see (in the future) Jesus day because he spiritually could not be raised until Jesus was raised.

The pharisees did not understand (see) what Jesus was saying they thought that Jesus was saying that he was physically alive before Abraham but he was saying that Abraham understood (saw) Jesus day.

[GeneBalthrop]

meerkat…………….i also see it that way to, Jesus was to be before Abraham in Rank and position.

love and peace to you and yours………………………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
Of course the Son was sent into the world.[1Jn4]

[NickHassan]

Hi mk,
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

I AM surely signifies not just being before, or just being in the future, but just being.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi MK

Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 16 2009,06:36)

The pharisees did not understand (see) what Jesus was saying they thought that Jesus was saying that he was physically alive before Abraham but he was saying that Abraham understood (saw) Jesus day.

I see. So you think the Pharisees did not understand the meaning of the word “was”, even though it was their own language?

I think the Pharisees knew full well what Jesus was saying.

WJ

[meerkat]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2009,09:43)

Hi MK Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 16 2009,06:36) The pharisees did not understand (see) what Jesus was saying they thought that Jesus was saying that he was physically alive before Abraham but he was saying that Abraham understood (saw) Jesus day. I see. So you think the Pharisees did not understand the meaning of the word “was”, even though it was their own language? I think the Pharisees knew full well what Jesus was saying. WJ

so why did Jesus say to them you do not understand what I am saying to you?

John 8:43

It is the spirit that gives life the flesh profits nothing

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Of course Jesus was not just CALLED the Son of God.
He is the son of God and we need to believe it and listen to the holy one of God.

[Proclaimer]

Before Abraham was, I am.

Can you say the same thing?
The answer would have to be yes, if you do not believe that he pre-existed.

So in that case, what would be the point if it applies to all.

I don't think this verse is cryptic at all. It is quite easy to understand.

Before Abraham, I am.

Do you not use the words “I am” in everyday language to identify yourself?

e.g., Q: Are you here? A: I am.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 15 2009,22:34)

We know that Jesus is not and angel because we are told just that in Hebrews.

Actually that is an assumption on your part.

First off, it says to which of the angels, and then points to the son. This can equally be read as him not being an angel and being an angel too. Try reading it with the understanding that he is an angel and it also makes sense.

Secondly scripture calls Jesus an angel.

Malachi 3:1
“See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking  will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

Almost without exception this passage has been interpreted to refer to two messengers – John the Baptist as the first messenger (or angel) “preparing the way” and the Lord Jesus Christ as the second “messenger (or angel) of the covenant”. It  is also quoted in Matt.11:10.

NOTE: The word for angel (messenger) in the OT is mal'ak {mal-awk'} – hence Malachi.

Matthew 11:10-15,
“This is he, of whom it is written, 'Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You'.

John 13:16
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

The reality here is that the word 'angel' means 'messenger' and Jesus and John were both messengers. Messengers can be men, cherub, seraph, or whatever God chooses. More often than not, translators use the word “angel” when it is a being from heaven, and messenger when it is a “man” – hence why we usually think that all angels are always beings from heaven.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Are all messengers angels?
2 Corinthians 8:23
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Philippians 2:25
Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

[Proclaimer]

Hi Nick.

The word angel in the OT is {mal-awk}. This word is applied to men and heavenly beings. That is my point. So in the usage of that word, Jesus is indeed an angel {mal-awk}.  

I have never taught that Jesus is a cherub or seraph, so in reference to them being called messengers, I am not lumping Jesus in that group.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 16 2009,08:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2009,09:43) Hi MK meerkat,Jan. wrote: The pharisees did not understand (see) what Jesus was saying they thought that Jesus was saying that he was physically alive before Abraham but he was saying that Abraham understood (saw) Jesus day. I see. So you think the Pharisees did not understand the meaning of the word “was”, even though it was their own language? I think the Pharisees knew full well what Jesus was saying. WJ

Hi MK

Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 16 2009,08:44)

so why did Jesus say to them you do not understand what I am saying to you? John 8:43

Why would you quote this scripture out of its context? Abraham was not even mentioned until the 52nd verse.

Here is the context of what you quote…

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for “I came from God and now am here“. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. John 8:42, 43

What they did not understand at this point was that Jesus was claiming his pre-existence by coming from God.

Once he said….

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jn 8:58

Then they understood he was claiming to exist before Abraham and took up stones to kill him.

This all confirms what he had said earlier in John when he said…

“For I have come down from heaven” not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. Jn 6:38

And…

What if you see “the Son of Man ascend to where he was before“! Jn 6:62

This is so clear.

Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 16 2009,08:44)

It is the spirit that gives life the flesh profits nothing

True! Was Jesus merely flesh?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger[4397], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger [4397]of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Number 4397
Transliteration:
mal'ak {mal-awk'}
Word Origin:
from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
TWOT:
1068a
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1

Total: 214
Definition:
messenger, representative
messenger
angel
the theophanic angel

So the word is used of John, a man, in the first part and he was not an angel.

mt11
10″This is the one about whom it is written,
'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'

Mk2
2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,

Lk1
76″And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS;

WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;

John is a messenger and not an angel.

Can you offer any support verses [in the theme of 2Cor13.1] to prove the idea that Jesus is an angel and not a messenger?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 16 2009,11:21)

So the word is used of John, a man, in the first part and he was not an angel.

Please excuse me for answering your question with a question, but what is the OT word for 'angel'?

[Author]

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