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Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,12:31) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 12 2009,12:22) CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 10 2009,11:05]
Hi CA:What I mean by saying that the Protestant bible will do, is that after reading the Appocrypha and most of what the early church Fathers have had to say, they don't add anything to what I can understand from the protestant bible.
Perhaps Macabees I does add some history regarding Antiochus Epiphanes, the descration of the temple, and the feast of lights.
Other than that when I have a question about something God has said, I ask him about it and he gives me the answer within the protestant bible.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote What I mean by saying that the Protestant bible will do, is that after reading the Appocrypha and most of what the early church Fathers have had to say, they don't add anything to what I can understand from the protestant bible. I could say the same thing about the book of Philemon. Why don't you tear that one out? But whether you personally get anything out of a book of the Bible is irrelevant as to whether it should be there or not. Or do we all have the power to take scissors to our Bibles (like Thomas Jefferson) and cut out the parts we don't like?
Quote Perhaps Macabees I does add some history regarding Antiochus Epiphanes, the descration of the temple, and the feast of lights. And perhaps Esther has some history about the Jews during the captivity, but why not can that one too?
Quote Other than that when I have a question about something God has said, I ask him about it and he gives me the answer within the protestant bible. So really what you're saying is that you hear from God on a personal basis SOOO WELL that you don't really even need the Bible at all. Right?
Did you ever wonder why what YOU think God is saying to you is far and away different and opposite to what someone else thinks God is saying to them? Where did you adopt the idea that you are your own subjective arbiter of what is you, what God is saying, what God is not saying, etc?
I'm not at all trying to be funny. That is a real question.
Hi CA:God has shown me that he plans to use me as a Bishop in the church, and if he confirms, what I teach with the same type of healings and miracles that He did in the ministry of Jesus and of the Apostles, then it will be Him saying that what I teach is correct, and that is what matters.
I don't see God confirming what the Catholic church teaches with those types of miracles and healings.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 12 2009,12:56) CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 12 2009,12:22]
CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 10 2009,11:05]
Hi CA:God has shown me that he plans to use me as a Bishop in the church, and if he confirms, what I teach with the same type of healings and miracles that He did in the ministry of Jesus and of the Apostles, then it will be Him saying that what I teach is correct, and that is what matters.
I don't see God confirming what the Catholic church teaches with those types of miracles and healings.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My desire is for God's best for you and your family as well. Bless you!You may be unaware of this, but it is the Protestants who were cessationists and said that miracles and healing weren't for today. We have always believed that miracles and healings are for today. We have seen them consistently up until the present day. The Catholic church is filled with mountains of stories of the miraculous.
But the real point is that many people see miracles and vastly disagree on a myriad of points of theology.
I, myself, have seen many many miracles worked in response to believing prayer. So now does that make you want to agree with me? I hope not. At least I hope you don't agree with me based upon that. There needs to be a much deeper reason for your faith than that.
Do you agree?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,13:01) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 12 2009,12:56) CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 12 2009,12:22]
CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 10 2009,11:05]
Hi CA:God has shown me that he plans to use me as a Bishop in the church, and if he confirms, what I teach with the same type of healings and miracles that He did in the ministry of Jesus and of the Apostles, then it will be Him saying that what I teach is correct, and that is what matters.
I don't see God confirming what the Catholic church teaches with those types of miracles and healings.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My desire is for God's best for you and your family as well. Bless you!You may be unaware of this, but it is the Protestants who were cessationists and said that miracles and healing weren't for today. We have always believed that miracles and healings are for today. We have seen them consistently up until the present day. The Catholic church is filled with mountains of stories of the miraculous.
But the real point is that many people see miracles and vastly disagree on a myriad of points of theology.
I, myself, have seen many many miracles worked in response to believing prayer. So now does that make you want to agree with me? I hope not. At least I hope you don't agree with me based upon that. There needs to be a much deeper reason for your faith than that.
Do you agree?
Hi CA:My faith is based on an inimate and personal relationship with God, my Father through my Lord Jesus, and I am here to glorify him through the life that I live in obedience to Him.
The magicians of Pharoah did many so called miracles, and so, as the book of revelation tells us, will the False Prophet.
But the types of miracles and healings are those which a magician cannot duplicate such as in the following scripture:
Quote Jhn 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day(Or as the Catholic church would say, because he doesn't believe in the “Trinity”or because he is not subjected to the authority of the Pope). Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Jhn 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is.
Jhn 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes.
Jhn 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Jhn 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
Jhn 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 12 2009,15:32) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 12 2009,13:01) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 12 2009,12:56) CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 12 2009,12:22]
CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 10 2009,11:05]
Hi CA:God has shown me that he plans to use me as a Bishop in the church, and if he confirms, what I teach with the same type of healings and miracles that He did in the ministry of Jesus and of the Apostles, then it will be Him saying that what I teach is correct, and that is what matters.
I don't see God confirming what the Catholic church teaches with those types of miracles and healings.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My desire is for God's best for you and your family as well. Bless you!You may be unaware of this, but it is the Protestants who were cessationists and said that miracles and healing weren't for today. We have always believed that miracles and healings are for today. We have seen them consistently up until the present day. The Catholic church is filled with mountains of stories of the miraculous.
But the real point is that many people see miracles and vastly disagree on a myriad of points of theology.
I, myself, have seen many many miracles worked in response to believing prayer. So now does that make you want to agree with me? I hope not. At least I hope you don't agree with me based upon that. There needs to be a much deeper reason for your faith than that.
Do you agree?
Hi CA:My faith is based on an inimate and personal relationship with God, my Father through my Lord Jesus, and I am here to glorify him through the life that I live in obedience to Him.
The magicians of Pharoah did many so called miracles, and so, as the book of revelation tells us, will the False Prophet.
But the types of miracles and healings are those which a magician cannot duplicate such as in the following scripture:
Quote Jhn 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day(Or as the Catholic church would say, because he doesn't believe in the “Trinity”or because he is not subjected to the authority of the Pope). Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Jhn 9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is.
Jhn 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes.
Jhn 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Jhn 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
Jhn 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote But the types of miracles and healings are those which a magician cannot duplicate And those are the precise types of miracles I am speaking of. They've been going on in every generation since Christ's ministry. Maybe you've got some history to read.
Your point is so well taken, though, that I must ask you to consider that Jesus said that MANY would come on that day and say, Lord, Lord did we not….do miracles….
You see, you are quoting from a Catholic book: the Bible.
I feel sad that you aren't distressed over not being able to establish any authority for what books belong in the Canon of Scripture. As far as you're concerned, the Bible could have fallen out of the sky. You can't defend the canonicity or inspiration for the book you base your whole life upon.
Wow. I think I need a minute…
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:23) So no one can support Sola Scriptura, eh? Then I guess there is almost no point to most of the threads on this forum. Amazing.
2Tim 3:15-17 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to give you the wisdom you need for salvation through faith in Christ. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work.Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 14 2009,13:57) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,07:23) So no one can support Sola Scriptura, eh? Then I guess there is almost no point to most of the threads on this forum. Amazing.
2Tim 3:15-17 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to give you the wisdom you need for salvation through faith in Christ. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Thought you'd quote this one. Its the best anyone can find. But does it say that Scripture is the ONLY authority?“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
The fact is that this passage (or any other) DOES NOT EVEN HINT at Scripture being the sole (only) rule of faith. It says that Scripture is:
1. Inspired
and
2. Profitable (or beneficial)
But in no way does it teach that Scripture ALONE is all one needs to determine the truth about faith and morals in the Church.
As a former Protestant Pentecostal pastor and evangelist I had to admit that Sola Scriptura is unreasonable, unbiblical, and self-refuting.
You must admit that this Scripture doesn't make some exclusive claim about Scripture. The question is…
Will you?
The Protestant appeal to the sole authority of Scripture to defend sola scriptura is a textbook example of circular reasoning, and it betrays an essential problem with the doctrine itself: It is contrary to reason. One cannot prove the inspiration of Scripture, or any text, from the text itself. The Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, the Qur’an, the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, and other books all claim inspiration, but this does not make them inspired.
Closely related to this is the question of the canon. After all, if the Bible is the sole rule of faith, we first have to know which books are included in the Bible. Many books were believed to be inspired and, therefore, canonical in the early Church. How do we separate the wheat from the chaff? The Protestant must use the principle of sola scriptura to answer the question of the canon. It simply cannot be done.
Many Protestants say, “The Holy Spirit guided the early Christians and helped them gather the canon of Scripture and declare it to be the inspired word of God, as Jesus said in John 16:13.” That answer is more Catholic than Protestant. John 16:13 does tells us that the Spirit will lead the apostles, and by extension, the Church, into truth. But it has nothing to say about sola scriptura or the nature or number of books in the canon.
Historically, the Church used sacred Tradition outside of Scripture as its criterion for the canon. The early Christians, many of whom disagreed on the issue, needed the Church in council to give an authoritative decree to settle the question. Those are the historical facts.
Imagine a Catholic making a similar claim to demonstrate that Mary is the Mother of God. “We believe the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and guided the early Christians to declare this truth.” Would the Protestant respond with a hearty amen? No. He would be more likely to say, “Show me where it says in the Bible that Mary is the Mother of God!” The same question, of course, applies to Protestants concerning the canon: “Show me where the canon of Scripture is in the Bible!”
You can't do that.
You can't even show me one Scripture that says “Scripture is the ONLY authority for what we believe and do”
Can you?
Hi CA,
You have discarded the authority of God's word altogether in favour of mere befuddled men?
Why?CA……..while it doesn't even Hint that it is the sole source , it doesn't Hint that is is not either , that is just you way of giving support to you tradition built faith, which scripture does not support. We are told we are washed by the Word of GOD. your trying to steal the Apostles writings as some Catholic teachings is as false as any lie ever told, there was (NO) Catholic Church when those words were written and they certainly were (Not) written to any Catholic at all, they were written to the various Churches by the apostles of there day, and not so much as ONE was a Catholic or a Protestant either. To claim them as your Catholic writings is simply a lie. The Catholic have there own bibles they use and even prohibited the people from having Bibles and torching them and burning them if they had any, but your denial of these Historically proved (FACT) is only to be expected from The Catholic organization. The Catholic Church has caused the lose of many lives Millions as History has proved, They have stoled and plundered the poor of every nation on earth. Without a doubt they are the GREAT WHORE Spoken of in REVELATIONS. IMO
gene
Quote CA……..while it doesn't even Hint that it is the sole source , it doesn't Hint that is is not either O…but THAT is where you are wrong. Scripture claims that it must be received in connection WITH Oral Tradition:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” – 2 Thess. 2:15
Notice it says “traditions”:
1. “by word” (Oral Tradition)
and by
2. “our epistle” (Sacred Scripture)
What traditions of the apostles do you follow that weren't written down, but passed on orally? If you don't follow any, you aren't being Biblical.
Hi CA,
Sorry they do not let it get dusty but read parts of it ceremonially at the masses.
Sit down for Paul and stand up for Jesus, then explain it all away in favour of tradition.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 13 2009,00:12) Hi CA,
Some will say Lord Lord we did miracles in your name but will not be known by him.
Yea, Nick:He said you who work iniquity.
Hi CA:
You say:
Quote Your point is so well taken, though, that I must ask you to consider that Jesus said that MANY would come on that day and say, Lord, Lord did we not….do miracles…. Yes, Jesus also said:
Quote Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. I wasn't around when those who decided what books were to be included in the Canon and which were not, but I can certainly tell by the principle that I have already stated, that precept must be upon precept and line upon line, whether or not something in the scriptures that we have lines up with God's Word or not, and also, I have the priviledge of going to God in prayer and asking Him if He said something that someone says that He said was said by Him or not.
In this way, I can never be deceived by those who claim to be sent by Him.
Quote 2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Quote Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: The doctrines of the Catholic church tell me that no, the popes do not come to us by His authority. And, He is not confirming what they teach, because He cannot confirm a lie.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,12:08) I wasn't around when those who decided what books were to be included in the Canon and which were not, but I can certainly tell by the principle that I have already stated, that precept must be upon precept and line upon line, whether or not something in the scriptures that we have lines up with God's Word or not, and also, I have the priviledge of going to God in prayer and asking Him if He said something that someone says that He said was said by Him or not. In this way, I can never be deceived by those who claim to be sent by Him.
I guess not. In that case you can only deceive yourself.If you are your own rule for what books belong in Scripture, how can I argue with you or guys like Luther who think that James doesn't belong in the Canon.
How can you know for sure whether you have the right canon of Scripture? Your answer: I pray about it and God tells me.
Lame! (and entirely unreasonable)
Hi CA,
Rather than take the risk of self deception you have chosen to follow Rome's theologians?
Seek ye first the kingdom.Quote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,12:08) In this way, I can never be deceived by those who claim to be sent by Him.
“And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!” – Rom. 10:15You are essentially saying, “but God, I don't WANT you to send me someone (a “man”). Just talk to me personally.”
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