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CA…………So much for the Flem Flam ,Where is your scripture proofs You think you Have , What others Catholic and TRINITARIAN writers say is useless we want Scripture not some Published works of APOSTATE CHURCHES, were not novice Here but you seem to be, not having any scripture proof for your assertions. IMO
gene
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 05 2009,11:02) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 04 2009,13:56) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 04 2009,12:29) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 04 2009,12:19) Hi CA: One more question on this topic. Do you not go to the bible when someone asks you about a doctrine that the church teaches in order to explain and justify what the Catholic church believes to be the truth?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Another great question.Not exclusively, no. The reason is that the proper interpretation of Sacred Tradition (includes Scripture) is to be found in the church's councils, fathers, and magisterial documents. Another reason is the inherent fragmentary nature of Scripture. It was never written to be a catechism as such. It is an inspired group of writings. It is a primary source we appeal to since this group of writings has it's origin in the apostles of the Lord. It is they upon whom the church was built, not Scripture.
So I do appeal to Scripture alone temporarily when talking with Protestants to show the interpretation the church has arrived at. But I seek to do this while pointing out the intended place it has in the Church. (This necessarily rejects Sola Scriptura)
Thanks again for seeking to understand my position. I really appreciate that.
Hi CA:As for me, I will stick to Sola Scriptura. That is where God directs me to find my answers to the questions I may have regarding anything that He has said.
Quote Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.And I posted part of the following scriptures in my responses to you, but in case you missed it:
Quote 1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cr 3:5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I am a Christian and I as well as you and the Catholic church will be held accountable for what we teach. My head is the Lord Jesus and not the Pope or any other man.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Let me thank you again for taking so much time to seek to understand the Church's position. I have a couple questions for you now, if that's alright. I think I'll take them one at a time so as to avoid distraction. Here's my first question:
On what authority do you rely to assure you that the Canon you hold as Scripture is a) Accurate (all the books that are there are the ones that are supposed to be there), and b) Complete (there are none missing)?
(On what do you rely to know you have an infallible canon?)
Hi CA:You ask:
Quote On what authority do you rely to assure you that the Canon you hold as Scripture is a) Accurate (all the books that are there are the ones that are supposed to be there), and b) Complete (there are none missing)? (On what do you rely to know you have an infallible canon?)
I rely on the authority of the Living God who is my Father who has promised in His Word that He by His Spirit will lead me into all truths. When I have a question regarding something that has been said was said by Him, I ask him if He said it. Or if I have a question regarding what He meant by something that is in scripture, I ask Him what He meant by what is Written.
When Jesus was tempted by the devil, his response to him was “it is written…”.
Quote Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Scripture is line upon line precept upon precept. We learn a little here and a little there, but it must all be in agreement.
There may in fact be some manuscipts that may be missing, but if so, it will not alter what is already available to us in the bible.
“For God so love the World that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the World to condemn the World, but that the World through him might be saved.”
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote I rely on the authority of the Living God who is my Father who has promised in His Word that He by His Spirit will lead me into all truths. When I have a question regarding something that has been said was said by Him, I ask him if He said it. Or if I have a question regarding what He meant by something that is in scripture, I ask Him what He meant by what is Written. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, his response to him was “it is written…”.
You didn't answer my question. You are quoting from a NT Canon. But how do you know that that Canon is inspired? There is no inspired table of contents in the Bible. How do you know Matthew is inspired and should be in the Bible? How do you know Mark is inspired and should be in the Bible and so on?
You are quoting from different letters and books. But on what authority can you claim inspiration and canonicity for them?
You haven't even begun to address these questions.
CA………Are we to trow away our bible and our understanding of them and listen to a Self professing “holy one” who think he can change and interpret scripture as He or his organization see fit. Surely you Jest. I think you need to take your garbage and feed it to some illiterates that don't know any better as the Catholic Church is noted for. Of course they did it for the, “betterment of humanity”, As they took all the gold and silver and riches back to Rome. It reminds me of a bee colony where all the worker bees grab all they can and take it back the the queen Bee, their “pope”. IMO
gene
Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 03 2009,13:00) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 24 2009,12:38) CA, You will find that many threads go off track (a bit, or a truckload!). That seems to be the nature of this real-time board, so don't let it frustrate you too much. There are threads dedicated to the Trinity, as you will notice. Two of my favorite topics are: Conception, and Preexistence.
Okay, I have some catching up to do. Looks like you've been busy. It also looks like you have been introduced to our former Catholics on this board (Nick, Irene and her husband Georg *they share the same log in name, “Cindy”).
My husband was raised Catholic – went to a private Catholic school and is the last of eight children. This topic is very interesting to me!! I'm glad that you are here!
Love,
Mandy
Mandy You surprise me, because I thought that you said you don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine,and now you act like ypu like this guy. Some times I don't understand you. Still I will always love you. Sorry but I don't like that He is here, at all.
Irene
Hi Irene,I don't just “like” him – I love him!
Galatians 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Matthew 5:43″You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
I'm thrilled that he is here. I've learned a lot about the Catholic church and their belief system. By the way, I am the one who invited CA to join us…..
I pray you will make room for him in your heart,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2009,19:12) Quote (Cindy @ Sep. 03 2009,13:00) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 24 2009,12:38) CA, You will find that many threads go off track (a bit, or a truckload!). That seems to be the nature of this real-time board, so don't let it frustrate you too much. There are threads dedicated to the Trinity, as you will notice. Two of my favorite topics are: Conception, and Preexistence.
Okay, I have some catching up to do. Looks like you've been busy. It also looks like you have been introduced to our former Catholics on this board (Nick, Irene and her husband Georg *they share the same log in name, “Cindy”).
My husband was raised Catholic – went to a private Catholic school and is the last of eight children. This topic is very interesting to me!! I'm glad that you are here!
Love,
Mandy
Mandy You surprise me, because I thought that you said you don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine,and now you act like ypu like this guy. Some times I don't understand you. Still I will always love you. Sorry but I don't like that He is here, at all.
Irene
Hi Irene,I don't just “like” him – I love him!
Galatians 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Matthew 5:43″You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
I'm thrilled that he is here. I've learned a lot about the Catholic church and their belief system. By the way, I am the one who invited CA to join us…..
I pray you will make room for him in your heart,
Mandy
Mandy,Hey, thanks for the kind words. Buckets of love right back at you. I'm so glad to be back in touch with you. I absolutely love you're spirit and your quest for truth. That's not a loaded statement either.
Thanks so much,
CA
Marty,
I really would appreciate an answer to my last question…when you have time.
Actually I would love anyone to answer that question. Here are some links to give you some food for thought:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 06 2009,06:39) Hi CA,
Why do you not believe them?
Nick,CA is asking a pretty straightforward question. As a former Catholic, I am keen to here your answer.
We have the bible, but how do we know it's inspired? Because it says so? Is that really all we've got to stand on? Please tell me there is more…..
The “Spirit” is of no use, so please don't bother with the “torch and the map”. While it's a nice theory, the “Spirit” has proven to lead Christians in all sorts of directions.
Love,
MandyIrene said:
Quote Mandy You surprise me, because I thought that you said you don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine,and now you act like ypu like this guy. Some times I don't understand you. Still I will always love you. Sorry but I don't like that He is here, at all.
IreneBut bodhitharta is okay. Right? He denies that Christ was crucified; he claims that the Bible has been tampered with and the book of Hebrews is corrupt. He says that the koran is on equal ground with the scriptures. He has said more than once that Paul was a deceiver. He said that Christ spoke failed prophecies. Yet it bothers you that CA is here. Even your husband Georg once encouraged us to listen to bodhitharta and when I called him on it he said that I think like the ape on my avatar. Then Georg just disappeared. And now you find fault with Mandy because she has Christian love for a trinitarian.
If it bothers you so much that CA is here and that Mandy has Christian love for him then you may disappear like Georg. No one is twisting your arm to be here you know.
thinker
Psst! Thinker…… Do you know what I think? I think a lot of Christians are going to be surprised to see who is sitting next to them at the great Dinner of our Lord.
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,05:15) Psst! Thinker…… Do you know what I think? I think a lot of Christians are going to be surprised to see who is sitting next to them at the great Dinner of our Lord. Love,
Mandy
Mandy,
I have a lot of respect for you. You're real cool.
thinker
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 06 2009,05:54) Quote I rely on the authority of the Living God who is my Father who has promised in His Word that He by His Spirit will lead me into all truths. When I have a question regarding something that has been said was said by Him, I ask him if He said it. Or if I have a question regarding what He meant by something that is in scripture, I ask Him what He meant by what is Written. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, his response to him was “it is written…”.
You didn't answer my question. You are quoting from a NT Canon. But how do you know that that Canon is inspired? There is no inspired table of contents in the Bible. How do you know Matthew is inspired and should be in the Bible? How do you know Mark is inspired and should be in the Bible and so on?
You are quoting from different letters and books. But on what authority can you claim inspiration and canonicity for them?
You haven't even begun to address these questions.
Hi CA:I believe that I did answer your questions.
Quote Scripture is line upon line precept upon precept. We learn a little here and a little there, but it must all be in agreement. Some here believe that the book of Enoch should be included in the Canon, for example, and I do not using the principle that I have stated above.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 10 2009,09:50) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 06 2009,05:54) Quote I rely on the authority of the Living God who is my Father who has promised in His Word that He by His Spirit will lead me into all truths. When I have a question regarding something that has been said was said by Him, I ask him if He said it. Or if I have a question regarding what He meant by something that is in scripture, I ask Him what He meant by what is Written. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, his response to him was “it is written…”.
You didn't answer my question. You are quoting from a NT Canon. But how do you know that that Canon is inspired? There is no inspired table of contents in the Bible. How do you know Matthew is inspired and should be in the Bible? How do you know Mark is inspired and should be in the Bible and so on?
You are quoting from different letters and books. But on what authority can you claim inspiration and canonicity for them?
You haven't even begun to address these questions.
Hi CA:I believe that I did answer your questions.
Quote Scripture is line upon line precept upon precept. We learn a little here and a little there, but it must all be in agreement. Some here believe that the book of Enoch should be included in the Canon, for example, and I do not using the principle that I have stated above.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Then some questions to clarify:How do you know that Isaiah (where this Scripture come from) is inspired and supposed to be in the Canon?
What do you do with those who would say that they do not see this Scripture as a judge for the canonicity of Scripture?
What do you do with folks who ask you to read the second half of the verse?
“But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” – KJV
So the Scripture says that if we use this method we will “go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared, and taken”? What?
Where is the inspired table of contents?
Hi CA,
Certainly you will have worries about the scriptures and prefer to stand on tradition if you cut yourself off from Christ and the true foundation of scripture.[Mt7]But Jesus happily quoted scriptures about himself from Isaiah and other places in the sure knowledge that they were truth[Jn17.17]
We follow him but as you say it is easier to follow men if you have such doubts.
Hi CA:
You ask:
Quote How do you know that Isaiah (where this Scripture come from) is inspired and supposed to be in the Canon? Jesus testified that this book was inspired by reading from it.
Quote Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,Regarding the following scripture and your comment about it:
Quote “But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” – KJV So the Scripture says that if we use this method we will “go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared, and taken”? What?
Here are these scriptures in context:
Quote Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:
Isa 28:11 ¶ For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
These scriptures do not say that if we use this method we will go and fall backward, and be borken and snared and taken. He was speaking of those who would not listen.
You ask:
Quote Where is the inspired table of contents? I believe that the protestant bible will do.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 10 2009,11:05) Hi CA: You ask:
Quote How do you know that Isaiah (where this Scripture come from) is inspired and supposed to be in the Canon? Jesus testified that this book was inspired by reading from it.
Quote Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,Regarding the following scripture and your comment about it:
Quote “But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” – KJV So the Scripture says that if we use this method we will “go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared, and taken”? What?
Here are these scriptures in context:
Quote Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:
Isa 28:11 ¶ For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
These scriptures do not say that if we use this method we will go and fall backward, and be borken and snared and taken. He was speaking of those who would not listen.
You ask:
Quote Where is the inspired table of contents? I believe that the protestant bible will do.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote Quote How do you know that Isaiah (where this Scripture come from) is inspired and supposed to be in the Canon? Jesus testified that this book was inspired by reading from it.
How do you know that the book of Matthew or any other NT book is inspired and should be in the canon? Please don't tell me that you use circular reasoning….
Quote For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. So with stammering tongue, eh? Sounds like ORAL utterance going on primarily. I have seen the context. And still, no matter how you look at it, this passage is CLEARLY NOT talking about a method for determining the canon of Scripture.
Besides, even if it was (which it is not) the meaning of that statement is not clear…line upon line. What does that really mean? Can't one go line upon line in the book of 1 or 2 Machabees? Of course you can. Please be clear as to what you think this passage means.
Quote You ask: Quote Where is the inspired table of contents? I believe that the protestant bible will do.
Wha wa wait a minute. That's it? “I believe the protestant bible will do”? Based upon what?
Based upon what council? What church father? What historical source? What point of authority? What? Where? Why do you think it will do?
Sorry, but you shocked me a bit there. I thought you were ready to engage me on this issue.
Hi CA,
Why make such a fuss about individual verses when you ignore scripture in favour of your traditions?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,16:40) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 10 2009,11:05) Hi CA: You ask:
Quote How do you know that Isaiah (where this Scripture come from) is inspired and supposed to be in the Canon? Jesus testified that this book was inspired by reading from it.
Quote Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,Regarding the following scripture and your comment about it:
Quote “But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” – KJV So the Scripture says that if we use this method we will “go, and fall backward, and be broken and snared, and taken”? What?
Here are these scriptures in context:
Quote Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:
Isa 28:11 ¶ For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
These scriptures do not say that if we use this method we will go and fall backward, and be borken and snared and taken. He was speaking of those who would not listen.
You ask:
Quote Where is the inspired table of contents? I believe that the protestant bible will do.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote Quote How do you know that Isaiah (where this Scripture come from) is inspired and supposed to be in the Canon? Jesus testified that this book was inspired by reading from it.
How do you know that the book of Matthew or any other NT book is inspired and should be in the canon? Please don't tell me that you use circular reasoning….
Quote For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. So with stammering tongue, eh? Sounds like ORAL utterance going on primarily. I have seen the context. And still, no matter how you look at it, this passage is CLEARLY NOT talking about a method for determining the canon of Scripture.
Besides, even if it was (which it is not) the meaning of that statement is not clear…line upon line. What does that really mean? Can't one go line upon line in the book of 1 or 2 Machabees? Of course you can. Please be clear as to what you think this passage means.
Quote You ask: Quote Where is the inspired table of contents? I believe that the protestant bible will do.
Wha wa wait a minute. That's it? “I believe the protestant bible will do”? Based upon what?
Based upon what council? What church father? What historical source? What point of authority? What? Where? Why do you think it will do?
Sorry, but you shocked me a bit there. I thought you were ready to engage me on this issue.
Hi CA:What I mean by saying that the Protestant bible will do, is that after reading the Appocrypha and most of what the early church Fathers have had to say, they don't add anything to what I can understand from the protestant bible.
Perhaps Macabees I does add some history regarding Antiochus Epiphanes, the descration of the temple, and the feast of lights.
Other than that when I have a question about something God has said, I ask him about it and he gives me the answer within the protestant bible.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 12 2009,12:22) CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote:[quote=942767,Sep. 10 2009,11:05]
Hi CA:What I mean by saying that the Protestant bible will do, is that after reading the Appocrypha and most of what the early church Fathers have had to say, they don't add anything to what I can understand from the protestant bible.
Perhaps Macabees I does add some history regarding Antiochus Epiphanes, the descration of the temple, and the feast of lights.
Other than that when I have a question about something God has said, I ask him about it and he gives me the answer within the protestant bible.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote What I mean by saying that the Protestant bible will do, is that after reading the Appocrypha and most of what the early church Fathers have had to say, they don't add anything to what I can understand from the protestant bible. I could say the same thing about the book of Philemon. Why don't you tear that one out? But whether you personally get anything out of a book of the Bible is irrelevant as to whether it should be there or not. Or do we all have the power to take scissors to our Bibles (like Thomas Jefferson) and cut out the parts we don't like?
Quote Perhaps Macabees I does add some history regarding Antiochus Epiphanes, the descration of the temple, and the feast of lights. And perhaps Esther has some history about the Jews during the captivity, but why not can that one too?
Quote Other than that when I have a question about something God has said, I ask him about it and he gives me the answer within the protestant bible. So really what you're saying is that you hear from God on a personal basis SOOO WELL that you don't really even need the Bible at all. Right?
Did you ever wonder why what YOU think God is saying to you is far and away different and opposite to what someone else thinks God is saying to them? Where did you adopt the idea that you are your own subjective arbiter of what is you, what God is saying, what God is not saying, etc?
I'm not at all trying to be funny. That is a real question.
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