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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2009,08:40) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Thanks for quoting 1 John 2:18,19. That verse says that those who have not stayed with the Church never belonged to us.
I doubt “Church” is what he meant but what I quoted is rather vague on that point.
You can doubt. I can be certain. This is the problem with depending on “private revelation.” Unity under these circumstances is not evident. We know the desire of the Holy Spirit is for all Christians to “say the same thing” and be “of the same mind”. So what is our problem here? I'm assuming that both of us are sincerely seeking to know truth. So what gives?Quote Still if you continue on with the next few versus you will see he was most likely speaking of doctrine. He even mentions the written word of God which in this case we call part of Scripture. 1 John 2:20-25(NIV) reads:
Quote But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
He's clearly talking about why he wrote the letter/epistle. Not stating anything specifically about Scriptural writings in general. I'm not seeing a point here.
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote All Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at holy baptism. That Holy Spirit agrees with the Church.
If you truly have the Holy Spirit then you will be able to correctly interpret Scripture which destroys your initial argument against Sola Scripture as you stated it was unreliable because of differences in interpretation.
O, but see you are confusing the concept of having the Holy Spirit with the idea that the Holy Spirit renders us each individually infallible in our own private interpretation of the Scriptures. You a demanding that if we possess the Holy Spirit individually we will individually and apart from the rest of the whole receive revelation.
This is a very Western and democratic train of thought. But this is not the context that the apostles were writing. John was a Jew and was preaching a fulfilled Judaism – Christianity. The Jews had a very corporate view of collective understanding. Look at circumcision for example. The father gave his son his religion. He took a helpless baby on the eighth day and entered that baby into the people of God whether that baby liked it or not. The Church is a body consisting of members of one another. We cannot separate ourselves from our brothers like Americans do in their individualistic society. American Protestant Christianity is “just me and Jesus.” Well that is a very new concept.
So you can't read this passage with your 21st century Western eyes and expect to understand it.
So we truly DO have the Holy Spirit. And that same Holy Spirit guides the whole church together into truth. There are no lone rangers in the Kingdom of God.
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote BTW, which Clement did you quote?
I did not quote St. Clement. I merely pointed out that he stated that he spoke from God as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit. He did not use those exact words. I was going from what you quoted.
Then what was that quote that you quoted before mine and called it “First Clement”?
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Stop trusting in yourself and thrust yourself upon Christ and enter His body
If you knew what that meant then you would not be teaching the false doctrine you do as your doctrine sets no one free from slavery to sin.
Lie. I have been set free from the bondage of sin.
Quote You say that we are essentially claiming that only the priests have the Holy Spirit. Well I NEVER CLAIMED THAT you don't have to your church claims it for you.
Quote All Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at holy baptism. now you are claiming you can call this spirit down and to do the bidding of your church
Quote
That Holy Spirit agrees with the Church.the one that comes down and does the bidding of the church is 'that holy spirit'
using the word holy in front your spirit needs to be corrected.
Aren't you all embarrassed that you can't find one Scripture claiming that the Bible is the only source or authority for what we should believe and do?
Yet you all cling to this litmus test for truth.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote You can doubt. I can be certain.
I have no claim to be a teacher but I do know that the church is not all that. The church serves a purpose but it is the teachings of the church that are truly important. A church with a false doctrine is a false church.
I have read what Jesus teaches and he does not teach come to my church and you will inherit eternal life. Instead he states obey all my teachings and you will live.
Paul’s instruction to Timothy was to watch his doctrine and his life so that he and his hearers may be saved.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote This is the problem with depending on “private revelation.”
I see no evidence that you even know what “private revelation” is since what the Spirit reveals to a person is not “private revelation”.
I admit that there are many false teachings in the world set to seek the careless and corrupt and that only those that truly seek God will in time win through. This is so because God will lead them to the truth that is in Jesus the Messiah.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote I'm assuming that both of us are sincerely seeking to know truth. So what gives?
It is my hope that we are students and so like students it takes us time to learn.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote He's clearly talking about why he wrote the letter/epistle. Not stating anything specifically about Scriptural writings in general. I'm not seeing a point here.
We are in our writing the same person as we are in person. John knew the true message of the Anointed One as did other writers of Scripture and so they wrote that message for us to read to this day.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote O, but see you are confusing the concept of having the Holy Spirit with the idea that the Holy Spirit renders us each individually infallible in our own private interpretation of the Scriptures.
If we choose to listen to the Holy Spirit then we will each be individually infallible because God will interpret Scripture for us. If we instead choose to listen to Satan then we will misinterpret Scripture. It depends on the One we choose to serve, even if we are unaware of that choice.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote American Protestant Christianity is “just me and Jesus.” Well that is a very new concept.
I am not sure of where you came up with that idea since even the Pharaoh told Mosses and Aaron that “I have sinned”. He also confessed his people sinned.
Jeremiah 31:34(NIV) reads:
Quote No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Lie. I have been set free from the bondage of sin.
We are taught by the apostle Paul that anyone who sins is a slave to sin. Do you have the hope that you will stop sinning in this world? Is that hope based on faith that God will do it for you or that you can do it for yourself by human effort?
CA………..You can claim the Catholic Church started at the time of the apostles all you want, but fact is it started when the pagan Emperor Constantine set it up. AD 325 at the council of Neciea . If your teaching do not conform to the teaching of the word of GOD then your are a false teacher and if your Church does not follow the teachings of Christ Jesus your church is not of GOD. The Catholic Church was born in Paganism and Has never left Paganism it has polluted the whole earth with corrupt teachings and Blasphemies against God and his word and Jesus also. Her daughters the Protestants are no better they teach Her teachings also. But thanks be to GOD that when Jesus returns He will abolish it teachings and deliver those captivated by her and set them FREE from HER Curse and Plagues. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 02 2009,01:36) CA………..You can claim the Catholic Church started at the time of the apostles all you want, but fact is it started when the pagan Emperor Constantine set it up. AD 325 at the council of Neciea . If your teaching do not conform to the teaching of the word of GOD then your are a false teacher and if your Church does not follow the teachings of Christ Jesus your church is not of GOD. The Catholic Church was born in Paganism and Has never left Paganism it has polluted the whole earth with corrupt teachings and Blasphemies against God and his word and Jesus also. Her daughters the Protestants are no better they teach Her teachings also. But thanks be to GOD that when Jesus returns He will abolish it teachings and deliver those captivated by her and set them FREE from HER Curse and Plagues. IMO gene
I see you are not disuaded in your erroneous view of historical fact.So let me ask you, Gene, if you can answer a direct question. Will you agree to follow the teaching of the fathers BEFORE AD 325?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2009,17:31) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote You can doubt. I can be certain.
I have no claim to be a teacher but I do know that the church is not all that. The church serves a purpose but it is the teachings of the church that are truly important. A church with a false doctrine is a false church.
The church is not all that? What? Do you even CLAIM to be a Christian?You say a “church with a false doctrine is a false church.” Well, let me ask you sincerely: What standard do you use to determine whether the Church's doctrine is false?
If you say the personal revelation of the Holy Spirit to you personally, then I have a second question:
What makes you believe that you are hearing the Holy Spirit better than me or millions of Christians who have lived before us?
Quote I have read what Jesus teaches and he does not teach come to my church and you will inherit eternal life. I guess I should be made of wood instead of flesh so that I don't get so grieved over hearing things like this.
First let me say that since this thread is about Sola Scriptura, I want to point out that you are assuming that if something is true you HAVE to READ it in the Bible. This is a presupposition you have that you have not proven to me.
But using your standard for a brief moment, have you not read:
“Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28
Only those purchased with the blood of God are saved. This passage states that it is the CHURCH that is purchased with His blood.
Quote Instead he states obey all my teachings and you will live. And yet we read the apostolic inspired teachings and who are they addressed to?
“To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours.” – 1 Cor. 1:2
the Church
If you're not in the Church, please stop reading 1 Corinthians. It is not addressed to you.
Quote Paul’s instruction to Timothy was to watch his doctrine and his life so that he and his hearers may be saved. And who was Timothy? A bishop in the Church. The epistles of Timothy are addressed to a bishop specifically.
Plus, you have no proof that either of those epistles are inspired or should be in the Bible. Except “Pray about it and the Lord will show you they belong.” Well, Martin Luther apparently used a similar litmus test and wanted to exclude James among others.
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote This is the problem with depending on “private revelation.”
I see no evidence that you even know what “private revelation” is since what the Spirit reveals to a person is not “private revelation”.
Wrong. What the Spirit reveals to someone personally IS private revelation. “Private” meaning to one person by themself. The Sacred Scriptures are Public Revelation. They are intended for the whole Church.
Quote I admit that there are many false teachings in the world set to seek the careless and corrupt and that only those that truly seek God will in time win through. This is so because God will lead them to the truth that is in Jesus the Messiah. You are not meant to be an orphan and a stranger searching in a sea of doubt all of your days. There is a reason why you have not been rendered infallible. There is a reason why you can be wrong. We need to recognize our own weaknesses.
Quote
CatholicApologist wrote:Quote I'm assuming that both of us are sincerely seeking to know truth. So what gives?
It is my hope that we are students and so like students it takes us time to learn.
But what happens if you die before you “learn” what is essential for your salvation? Does God want you to be in such a state?
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote He's clearly talking about why he wrote the letter/epistle. Not stating anything specifically about Scriptural writings in general. I'm not seeing a point here.
We are in our writing the same person as we are in person. John knew the true message of the Anointed One as did other writers of Scripture and so they wrote that message for us to read to this day.
There is no internal evidence that John was writing to anyone besides the first century audience to which the epistle was addressed. You are loading the text with your own purpose because of your need to construct a Sola Scriptura context for learning. This is not logical or tenable.
Try again.
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote O, but see you are confusing the concept of having the Holy Spirit with the idea that the Holy Spirit renders us each individually infallible in our own private interpretation of the Scriptures.
If we choose to listen to the Holy Spirit then we will each be individually infallible because God will interpret Scripture for us. If we instead choose to listen to Satan t
hen we will misinterpret Scripture. It depends on the One we choose to serve, even if we are unaware of that choice.But this is not the case. There are many things you have been wrong about since you decided to follow Jesus. There are things that myriads of other Christians who are sincere and love the Lord and desire to live holy disagree about. Why are they not rendered infallible? Why do they anathemize each other's positions?
Reality does not bear you out.
As we used to say, “It preaches good…but it's not true”
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote American Protestant Christianity is “just me and Jesus.” Well that is a very new concept.
I am not sure of where you came up with that idea since even the Pharaoh told Mosses and Aaron that “I have sinned”. He also confessed his people sinned.
But modern Protestantism is not ancient Israel. Protestantism is built on the concept that each individual can and is required to, with Bible in hand, completely re-construct the entirety of Christian revelation with certainty. They claim the Holy Spirit helps one to do this apart from all others.
You're on your own. Hope you can hear God personally. Because if you can't or you get it wrong the consequences are dire.
I hope you can have the courage to take another look at the evidence. This is not how God set it up. This is not the Christian message.
Quote
CatholicApologist wrote:Quote Lie. I have been set free from the bondage of sin.
We are taught by the apostle Paul that anyone who sins is a slave to sin. Do you have the hope that you will stop sinning in this world? Is that hope based on faith that God will do it for you or that you can do it for yourself by human effort?
I am not a pelagian. I believe that God's grace is essential for my salvation. That would be an interesting discussion. I am amazed at how many “sin” issues I no longer have the same battle with that I did as a Protestant. There is truly grace in the sacraments instituted by Christ.
Hi CA,
The catholic church is not of God.
Your imagination is running wild.
God does not abide with apostasy.This is my last post about the Catholic Church. I find that there is no good fruit in what is being said here. Since we belonged to that Churchi for all of our Lives, we know what their practises are. Praying to Maria when the Rosery is being said is against God, because only He deserves to be prayed to. Then they go to a Priest to tell him their sins and He forgivess their Sins. Only God can forgive Sins. Baptism is done on Infants. And the Priest only takes a small amount of water and sprinkles it over the Infants Head. No laying on of Hands. Our 4 Children were all Baptized that way.
Not going to Mass on Sunday is a Mortal Sin. And then is this indulgenes that you can buy to say a Mass for the deceased loved one. They believe in a Percatory were you go when you died and you have sins that you were not able to confess to the Priest, before you died. On good Friday they venerate the Cross, and kneel down and kiss the cross. Then there are the Holy Days that are Pagan like Christmas nd Easter. Christ was not even born on December 25. And yes, we can prove that. Good Friday is a joke. Christ was in the Grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Friday to Sunday is only 2 days.
Christ died on Wednesday in the afternoon. The next day was an Annual Sabbath day and they buried Christ right before Sun down. Thursday was the first day of Unleavend Bread and a High Sabbath. Wednesday night to Thursday night, is 1 night, Thursday to Friday 2 nights, Friday to Saturday 3 nights. Thursday 1 day, Friday 2 days, Saturday 3 days. And when Maria and Maria Magdelene came to the grave early on Sundy morning Christ had already risen. And then they have All Saints Day, on November 1, and on November 2 is all Souls day. The one day that I dislike the most is Halloween. O yes the Catholic Church participates in that too. The Catholic Church close to our House has a Haunted House. A big sign is being advertised, were the Place is. And then they believe in the trinity doctrine.
If anyone of you still thinks that the Holy Spirit of God is in that Church you better pray about it. And some of us here do know what the Church is, listed in Revelation.
Now I come to the greatest insult and an abomination to God. It is the daily Mass in the Catholic Church.
Christs Sacrifice put an end to all other Sacrifices, read Hebrew 10:10 and CoL.2:13.
He Anti-Christ is teaching, Christs Sacrifice is only cleansing us from Adams inherited sin, and that our daily sins can only be forgiven by a daily Mass sacrifice, during which Christ dies again, and again.
Teaching that Christs Sacrifice was not enough is an insult of the highest degree. It is a slap in the face of Jesus after He has just died for us an agonizing and torturious death. For something to be called an abomination is the strongest term used by God to show how much He hates it. The Anti-Christ gospel has destroyed the true meaning of Christ's Sacrifice; Even people who don't celebrate the Mass
don't understand that; it has spread all over the world. And that from the time this abomination would be set up, there would be 1290 years til it exposure, exposure only because this abomination is still going on to this very day.
Dan 12:11 ” From the time that the daily( Christ's continues) sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination( the Mass) that maketh desolate (destroy) set up, there will be thousand two hndred days.”Martin Luther exposed this abomination and many more of the Anti-Christ 1517 when he made his ninety-five the disagreements with the Roman Universal Church public. Counting back 1200 years from the year 1517 brings us to the time when it was set up, the year A.D.227; it is also the time in which
a pagan lawyer Tertullian became famous in the Christian world.
So the question still remains: what sanctuary would be cleanced after 2300 years, starting when? The only reference point the angel gave Daniel is the time the orderwas given to rebuilt Jerusalem and her walls, 457 B.C. and adding 2300 brings brings us to the year A.D. 1843. The event that happen then are not written in any history books, but they are written in the book of
Rev. 12:7 And there was war in Heaven, Michael nd his Angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.”
verse 8″ And prevelled not, neither was their place found in Heaven.”
verse 9 ” And that great dragon was cast out that old serpent, the Devil an Satan, which deceived the whole world; he was cast out into the Earth and his angels with him.”
God's sanctuary was cleansed.'
Ps. 102:19″ For he has looked down from the height of hios sanctuary, from Heaven did the LORD behold the Earth.”Satan has no more access to God's Throne.
Rev. 12:10 ” nd I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, now is come salvation and streght, andthe Kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ, for the accuser of the Brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Did anyonesee or hear anything? No because it was a war between spirit beings, but we have certainly
felt the effect.Rev. 12:12 Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, and of the sea, for the devil has come down on to you, having great wrath, bexcAuse he knows that he has but ashort time.
World War 2 was no coincidences.
This is my Husbands undestanding of the Book of Revelation and Daniel. When ever He studied, He always ask God in prayer for wisdom. He has studied Ancient History alot.
To the Catholic I say this:” Come out of Her my People lest you will share in her sins, and lest you receive of her wrath.
God is a jelous God and only Him we should worship.
Math. 15:9 ” But in vain they do woship Me teaching for doctfrine the commantment of men.”
IreneIrene said:
Quote This is my last post about the Catholic Church. Irene,
It's about time. You have an axe to grind and the time is past due to let it go. It got old quickly.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,05:59) Hi CA,
The catholic church is not of God.
Your imagination is running wild.
God does not abide with apostasy.
What is apostasy Nick? Each man has his own definition of it when the Bible clearly defines and restricts it to the rejection of the new covenant. Therefore, you may be considered a backslider.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,09:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,05:59) Hi CA,
The catholic church is not of God.
Your imagination is running wild.
God does not abide with apostasy.
What is apostasy Nick? Each man has his own definition of it when the Bible clearly defines and restricts it to the rejection of the new covenant. Therefore, you may be considered a backslider.thinker
That's putting it nicely.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 30 2009,11:36) “Private interpretation” Apart from the question of the adequacy or inadequacy of the Bible, the problem of its interpretation is one of the first importance. It can have authority for us as the Word of God only provided we rightly grasp exactly what God intended to say. No meanings other than those he intended to be read into the text by men have any divine authority at all.
It has been said that once one admits that the Bible contains the revelation of God himself, then we have to admit that no man can go wrong if he is guided by it. If he were really guided by it, that would of course be true, at least as regards that part of divine revelation which has been recorded in its pages. But the trouble is that a man can wrongly think he is being guided by the Bible when in reality he is not, owing to his having misunderstood it. And is it not true, passing over for the moment the fact that for over a thousand years before the invention of the printing press it was impossible for each man to have a Bible, that when universal distribution became possible sincere and earnest Bible readers arrived at a multitude of conflicting conclusions? If private interpretation were God's way, the same Holy Spirit would have led all confiding in his assistance to one and the same truth.
Against these considerations, the command of Christ has been urged that we “search the Scriptures” (John 5:39). But the thousands of well-intentioned Protestants who have quoted those words as if indeed they were a command have been led astray by the translation in the Protestant Authorized Version of the Bible, a translation which has been corrected in the Protestant Revised Version to “You search the Scriptures.” Christ was stating a fact, not giving a command. He was addressing a group of Jews and blaming them for not recognizing him as the fulfillment of all that the Scriptures had predicted about him. The . . . Protestant Revised Standard Version describes him as saying, “You do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me.”
As a matter of fact, the whole passage is fatal to the contention that by searching the Scriptures one will necessarily arrive at the truth. The very ones to whom Christ was speaking had searched the Scriptures in the sincere belief that by such means they would learn all that was necessary for eternal life. Christ acknowledged that they really thought in such a way. And yet they had not arrived at the truth!
I'm a little disappointed that no one engaged me on this.Hello?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 30 2009,11:41) “Bible its own interpreter” A way out of the difficulties of Sola Scriptura and Private Interpretation was thought to be found in the contention that the Bible, as no other book can boast, is its own interpreter. After all, it was urged, since the Bible contains the inspired Word of the infinite God, no interpretation of it by any finite mind could possibly do it justice. We must therefore hold that the Word of God interprets itself to each sincere reader of the Bible.
It is really impossible, though, to maintain such a position. Although sacred Scripture is inspired by the “infinite God,” we cannot escape accepting the interpretation placed upon it by finite minds. After all, Scripture must mean something. To declare that meaning is to interpret it. And as human beings have only finite minds, they must either rely on meanings derived from it by their finite minds or refuse to attribute any meaning to Scripture at all.
No book, even one inspired by God, can be its own interpreter, and the very suggestion that the Bible is self-interpreting is opposed to its own teaching. For not only does the Bible nowhere claim to be “its own interpreter,” it declares the very opposite. Thus we read in the Acts of the Apostles that, when Philip found the Ethiopian reading the Bible, he said to him, “Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?” The man replied, “And how can I, unless some man show me?” Then Philip, in the name of the Church, interpreted the Scriptures for him (Acts 8:27-39).
Writing to Timothy, St. Paul tells him that it is the Church of the living God which is “the pillar and the ground of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). Again, he tells him, as a bishop of that Church, to “keep the good thing committed to thy trust by the Holy Ghost…Preach the word…reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine” (2 Tim. 1:14, 3:2). What does that mean but to interpret Scripture correctly and insist on the acceptance of the true interpretation declared in the name of the Church wherever it is a question of such doctrines as are contained in the Bible? The choice, then, is between interpretations proposed by unauthorized and fallible human minds and those of an authorized and infallible teacher in this world if such exists. The Bible contains the truth, but not everyone, even with the best of good will, is able to discern the truth it contains.
The Bible needs an authoritative teacher to explain its meaning in innumerable passages if misunder-standings are to be avoided. If a teacher is needed in schools to explain the text-books dealing with the mysteries of nature itself, how much more necessary is a teacher to explain the mysteries of divine revelation contained in Holy Scripture! The Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church alone, claims to be the divinely-appointed and infallible teacher at hand for this purpose, and hers is the only truly biblical position.
and this…In the light of all this, surely it is not difficult to understand the objections of the Catholic Church to the idea that each reader individually should constitute himself an independent judge as to the meaning of the Bible. As I have suggested earlier, this is practically to claim that each reader is rendered infallible by the Holy Spirit as often as he devotes himself earnestly to the reading of Holy Scripture, a claim far in excess of any claim made by Catholics even for that one man only, the pope, whose infallibility is exercised on isolated occasions only and within the limits of the most exacting conditions.
Bernard Shaw wrote “I had better inform my Protestant readers that the famous dogma of papal infallibility is by far the most modest pretension of the kind in existence. Compared with our infallible democracies, our infallible medical councils, our infallible astronomers, our infallible judges, and our infallible parliaments, the pope is on his knees in the dust confessing his ignorance before the throne of God, asking only that as to certain historical matters on which he clearly has more sources of information open to him than anyone else his decision shall be taken as final.”
What, then, does the Catholic Church say? She permits and encourages the private reading of Scripture. But she says definitely that no one has the right to interpret the Bible for himself in any way opposed to the official teachings of the Catholic Church. Passing over the fact that the majority of people lack the required training in the many different sciences bearing upon scriptural interpretation necessary even for a merely natural understanding of the Bible, we have to reckon with the positive provision made by Christ for our instruction in his religion.
The Bible itself tells us that “no prophecy of Scripture is made by private interpretation” (2 Pet. 1:20). It tells us that Christ established and guaranteed his Church, that he commissioned that Church to “teach all nations” (Matt. 28:19) in his name, and that he said of it, “he that heareth you, heareth me” (Luke 10:16), and also, “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen” (Matt. 18:17). No wonder St. Paul declared the “Church of the living God” to be “the pillar and the ground of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
That, then, is the Catholic position. Christ never made his religion dependent upon each individual's private interpretation of the Bible. His infinite wisdom would not choose a method which would lead, and has led, as we have seen, to division, chaos, and driftage from religion altogether. He established the Catholic Church, and that Church can say with her divine Master to those who profess to believe in the Bible that the very Scriptures upon which they claim to rely bear witness of her (John 5:39). She is the appointed guide to which, in obedience to Christ, we Catholics submit.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,09:49) Irene said: Quote This is my last post about the Catholic Church. Irene,
It's about time. You have an axe to grind and the time is past due to let it go. It got old quickly.thinker
I have an axe to grind? Yes, you of all people should say something like that. you too show no good fruit. Come out of her my people. if you can!!
No axes in my closet.
Irene
The assumption of the Protestant Reformers that the Bible contains an adequate account of all that is necessary for a Christian to believe accounts to a great extent for the widespread Protestant prejudice against “tradition,” which unfortunately is understood by them as implying a merely human tradition, far removed from Catholic doctrine on the subject. For, where it is a question of the transmission of revealed truths in the Church, the Catholic doctrine is concerned, not with any merely human traditions, but with what is known as divine tradition – that is, with truths originally revealed by God and handed down in the Church under the protection of the Holy Spirit against all dangers of distortion or perversion.
Now it is certain that there were many important doctrines taught by Christ and by the apostles which were not written down in the books of the New Testament, books which were essentially of a fragmentary character. As a matter of fact, as we have already seen, it was not until some twenty or thirty years after the foundation of the Church that even part of the apostolic preaching which we have in the New Testament was committed to writing.
What the first Christians treasured was the apostolic teaching, a teaching which has been preserved in the Church partly by the New Testament writings, partly by tradition. So St. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, “Brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle” (2 Thess. 2:14). St. Jude speaks of the necessity of maintaining “the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). He does not speak of that part of it only which was written in the books of the New Testament. Christian teaching in its fullness, not merely the part of it which was written in the New Testament, has been preserved in the official teachings of the Catholic Church.
The transmission of traditional doctrines, however, must not be thought of as a kind of mechanical and continuous handing on by word of mouth from age to age of every express teaching of Christ and of the apostles, over and above that written down in the New Testament. Some of these doctrines may be found recorded in the writings of the early Christian Fathers, but only those which came within the scope of the particular subjects which happened to engage their attention. Others may be discovered from a study of archaeological inscriptions, or of religious customs prevailing among the faithful, or of disciplinary canons and liturgical books. But all these are only points, as it were, where the living consciousness of the Church breaks through to the surface.
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