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so, the higher appointed ones (i.e. bishops, priest, popes ect. ect. ) in the catholic church only have been given the holy spirit, so in turn the ones appointed can only enter the kingdom. so what happens to all the followers? do they burn in hell for the appointed ones?
Quote 16:1 For Christ is with them that are lowly of mind, not with them that exalt themselves over the flock. first clement
CA…………Another lot of nothing said. Trinitarian false teachings.
We are told “BRETHREN YOU HAVE NO NEED OF A TEACHER FOR THE SPIRIT ITSELF TEACHES YOU ALL THINGS”.
and Jesus said…….Have you not read ” YOU SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD”.Longs meaningless posts only shows Your churches desired authority over it subjects , trying to keep people ignorant who they control for there (OWN) personal profit. What i and many others have learned was definitely no the result of Pagan Trinitarian Teachings.
gene
Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 30 2009,13:49) Quote 16:1 For Christ is with them that are lowly of mind, not with them that exalt themselves over the flock. first clement
This is a true quote. Our leaders do not exalt themselves over us. Quite the opposite. They are servant-leaders. And yes, they have real authority from Christ.Please read this quote from Clement:
Pope Clement I
“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us , let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy” (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).
Is he hypocritically “exalting” himself over the flock, or acting in God-ordained authority?
Of course he is acting in the authority Christ gave him through apostolic succession and, more specifically, Petrine succession.
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 30 2009,14:05) CA…………Another lot of nothing said. Trinitarian false teachings. We are told “BRETHREN YOU HAVE NO NEED OF A TEACHER FOR THE SPIRIT ITSELF TEACHES YOU ALL THINGS”.
and Jesus said…….Have you not read ” YOU SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD”.Longs meaningless posts only shows Your churches desired authority over it subjects , trying to keep people ignorant who they control for there (OWN) personal profit. What i and many others have learned was definitely no the result of Pagan Trinitarian Teachings.
gene
Gene,I'm having a hard time believing that you actually read this. Here it is again:
“Holy Spirit speaks”
Lacking faith in the Catholic Church and not finding her claims acceptable, Protestants go on to declare that even if the Bible as a book cannot be its own interpreter, at least the Holy Spirit is infallible, and he can render each reader infallible in his interpretations provided he has faith in Christ and is prepared to rely entirely upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But if each sincere reader of the Bible is rendered infallible by the Holy Spirit in discerning the meaning God intended to reveal, what is this but to claim for each believer an infallibility before which the much more modest claims of Catholics to one infallible pope pale into insignificance!
But descending from the ideal plane to that of the real, is it not astonishing that millions of would-be infallible readers of the Bible are not dismayed by the fact that they arrive at a multitude of mutually-exclusive conclusions? Results in practice make it almost a blasphemy to say that the Holy Spirit has anything to do with such a host of contradictory interpretations.
Just consider the multitude of different Protestant churches which have been established in accordance with the immense variety of opinions arising from the private interpretation of Holy Scripture! Thus we have Lutherans and Calvinists, Anglicans and Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Methodists, and the host of more recent sects, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Witnesses of Jehovah, and an almost unending list of others, each claiming to be based upon the Bible.
The height of absurdity is reached by such extravagances as those of the Kentucky snake cults whose members believe they can be bitten at will by poisonous reptiles without any ill-effects, thinking their practice to be justified by a passage in St. Mark's Gospel: “They shall take up serpents…and it shall not hurt them” (Mark 16:18).
In reality, they base their practice on their own wrong interpretation of those words. Christ did not say that the miraculous sign he promised would be always operative for everybody. Among the signs shown by his followers sometimes even such things as being unharmed by serpents could be expected. But always it would be a miracle wrought by God when God willed, not a kind of magic within the power of deluded people when they willed. The Acts of the Apostles tells us that St. Paul was bitten by a viper and that God preserved him from harm (Acts 28:5). But St. Paul was not guilty of presumption, deliberately allowing himself to be bitten and then challenging God to protect him–a form of presumption which our Lord expressly condemned (Luke 4:12).
When the devil told Christ to cast himself down from the pinnacle of the Temple, quoting Scripture to show that no harm would come to him, our Lord replied, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God” (Matt. 4:7). Men have not the right to dare God to do even what they think, rightly or wrongly, that God has promised to do.
Even in the earliest years of the Protestant Reformation, during the Elizabethan era, Shakespeare made Bassanio say, “In religion, what damned error, but some sober brow will bless it, and approve it with a text” (Merchant of Venice, III:2). But it is doubtful whether Shakespeare himself foresaw such grotesque outbreaks resulting from the so-called principle of private judgment as those of the Kentucky snake cults!
What has to be noticed, however, is that such fantastic cults are the effect of the same principle as that claimed for themselves by the more sedate and respectable Protestant denominations which reject the authority of the Catholic Church and declare that they have the right to be guided by their own individual interpretations of Holy Scripture.
Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 30 2009,08:49) Quote 16:1 For Christ is with them that are lowly of mind, not with them that exalt themselves over the flock. first clement
Never read the writings of Clement but that certainly sounds like a good saying to quote at the moment.Catholic Apologist wrote:
Quote Of course he is acting in the authority Christ gave him through apostolic succession and, more specifically, Petrine succession.
Where did you get that from what Clement wrote?
I certainly did not. What I understand is that he believes God speaks through him and that he has the Holy Spirit. That seems to be a belief that many of this board share whether they are mistaken or not.
Do you believe that God speaks through you and that you have the Holy Spirit?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2009,18:10) Catholic Apologist wrote: Quote Of course he is acting in the authority Christ gave him through apostolic succession and, more specifically, Petrine succession.
Where did you get that from what Clement wrote?
I certainly did not. What I understand is that he believes God speaks through him and that he has the Holy Spirit. That seems to be a belief that many of this board share whether they are mistaken or not.
Do you believe that God speaks through you and that you have the Holy Spirit?
kerwin The Catholic Church was founded with the wrong doctrine from the start. It is not of God, wether they belief some what we do or not, it makes nio difference. The trinity is wrong and they cannot prove that it is right. It is their tradition, a doctrine of men and not God. And of course he will say that he has God's Holy Spirit. What do you think he is going to say, that he does not? Come on, be for real.
IreneQuote (georg @ Sep. 30 2009,13:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2009,18:10) Catholic Apologist wrote: Quote Of course he is acting in the authority Christ gave him through apostolic succession and, more specifically, Petrine succession.
Where did you get that from what Clement wrote?
I certainly did not. What I understand is that he believes God speaks through him and that he has the Holy Spirit. That seems to be a belief that many of this board share whether they are mistaken or not.
Do you believe that God speaks through you and that you have the Holy Spirit?
kerwin The Catholic Church was founded with the wrong doctrine from the start. It is not of God, wether they belief some what we do or not, it makes nio difference. The trinity is wrong and they cannot prove that it is right. It is their tradition, a doctrine of men and not God. And of course he will say that he has God's Holy Spirit. What do you think he is going to say, that he does not? Come on, be for real.
Irene
I asked the question of Catholic Apologist because he backed himself into a corner and that question serves to outline him against the background.He did this because all true interpretation of Scripture comes when men are carried along by the Holy Spirit and so God works through them. If one is carried along by the Spirit then their interpretation is not from private interpretation.
He is basically claiming that only the priesthood of the Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic laity in that case would be condemned.
I do not know if Clement is part of the Catholic faith no matter what they may claim.
1 John 2:18-19(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
That is why it is wise to test the spirit of what you hear.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2009,19:57) Quote (georg @ Sep. 30 2009,13:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2009,18:10) Catholic Apologist wrote: Quote Of course he is acting in the authority Christ gave him through apostolic succession and, more specifically, Petrine succession.
Where did you get that from what Clement wrote?
I certainly did not. What I understand is that he believes God speaks through him and that he has the Holy Spirit. That seems to be a belief that many of this board share whether they are mistaken or not.
Do you believe that God speaks through you and that you have the Holy Spirit?
kerwin The Catholic Church was founded with the wrong doctrine from the start. It is not of God, wether they belief some what we do or not, it makes nio difference. The trinity is wrong and they cannot prove that it is right. It is their tradition, a doctrine of men and not God. And of course he will say that he has God's Holy Spirit. What do you think he is going to say, that he does not? Come on, be for real.
Irene
I asked the question of Catholic Apologist because he backed himself into a corner and that question serves to outline him against the background.He did this because all true interpretation of Scripture comes when men are carried along by the Holy Spirit and so God works through them. If one is carried along by the Spirit then their interpretation is not from private interpretation.
He is basically claiming that only the priesthood of the Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic laity in that case would be condemned.
I do not know if Clement is part of the Catholic faith no matter what they may claim.
1 John 2:18-19(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
That is why it is wise to test the spirit of what you hear.
kerwin St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church. God's Holy Spirit is not in that Church, and I know we used to belong to the Catholic Church until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. We were both Baptized as Infants there, or should I say sprinkled. So were all of our 4 Children. I know that Church inside and out. When we then were Baptized in 1985 according to Scriptures, I know that I had received the Holy Spirit of God. God let me know in a big way.
I am forever thankful to God that He called us out of that Church.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2009,19:57) Quote (georg @ Sep. 30 2009,13:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2009,18:10) Catholic Apologist wrote: Quote Of course he is acting in the authority Christ gave him through apostolic succession and, more specifically, Petrine succession.
Where did you get that from what Clement wrote?
I certainly did not. What I understand is that he believes God speaks through him and that he has the Holy Spirit. That seems to be a belief that many of this board share whether they are mistaken or not.
Do you believe that God speaks through you and that you have the Holy Spirit?
kerwin The Catholic Church was founded with the wrong doctrine from the start. It is not of God, wether they belief some what we do or not, it makes nio difference. The trinity is wrong and they cannot prove that it is right. It is their tradition, a doctrine of men and not God. And of course he will say that he has God's Holy Spirit. What do you think he is going to say, that he does not? Come on, be for real.
Irene
I asked the question of Catholic Apologist because he backed himself into a corner and that question serves to outline him against the background.He did this because all true interpretation of Scripture comes when men are carried along by the Holy Spirit and so God works through them. If one is carried along by the Spirit then their interpretation is not from private interpretation.
He is basically claiming that only the priesthood of the Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic laity in that case would be condemned.
I do not know if Clement is part of the Catholic faith no matter what they may claim.
1 John 2:18-19(NIV) reads:
Quote Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
That is why it is wise to test the spirit of what you hear.
Backed into a corner, eh? That's like a chihuahua walking up to a rotweiller and saying, “so I have you backed up into a corner, eh?”Very funny.
You haven't even proven your premise of Sola Scriptura.
You haven't even proven your premise of Private Interpretation
You haven't even proven your premise that the Holy Spirit teaches each individual apart from the whole Church.
You say that we are essentially claiming that only the priests have the Holy Spirit. Well I NEVER CLAIMED THAT. That is your false presupposition. All Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at holy baptism. That Holy Spirit agrees with the Church.
All of the members of the Church speak with one voice against you and your false beliefs….not just the priests.
BTW, which Clement did you quote?
Thanks for quoting 1 John 2:18,19. That verse says that those who have not stayed with the Church never belonged to us.
But the door is still open for you to come back…or for the first time. The Church is the ark of safety.
Stop trusting in yourself and thrust yourself upon Christ and enter His body
Quote (georg @ Oct. 01 2009,00:21) kerwin St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church.
Irene,You have just written the mother of all contradictory statements.
This is great. Hey, everyone check this out:Irene said “St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church.” Notice two things.
1. Clement wrote in A.D. 80. He knew the apostles and was the third successor of Peter in Rome. He is also mentioned in the NT as a companion of the apostle Paul. So we're talking about a man who was approved by the apostles and the NT verifies this.
2. Irene and Georg claim that the Catholic Church was started by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Now I'm not an expert at math. But I know enough to know that Clement of Rome lived CENTURIES BEFORE they claim the Church was founded.
ha ha ha ha he he he he (Sorry, getting a genuinely heart-felt kick out of Irene)
Can someone say….C O N T R A D I C T I O N ? ? ? ?
Quote God's Holy Spirit is not in that Church, and I know we used to belong to the Catholic Church until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. So according to Irene, the Holy Spirit WAS in the Catholic Church but left at some point?
BTW, she doesn't like St. Clement because HE WAS THOROUGHLY CATHOLIC IN HIS THEOLOGY….as were the apostles.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,03:46) Quote (georg @ Oct. 01 2009,00:21) kerwin St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church.
Irene,You have just written the mother of all contradictory statements.
This is great. Hey, everyone check this out:Irene said “St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church.” Notice two things.
1. Clement wrote in A.D. 80. He knew the apostles and was the third successor of Peter in Rome. He is also mentioned in the NT as a companion of the apostle Paul. So we're talking about a man who was approved by the apostles and the NT verifies this.
2. Irene and Georg claim that the Catholic Church was started by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Now I'm not an expert at math. But I know enough to know that Clement of Rome lived CENTURIES BEFORE they claim the Church was founded.
ha ha ha ha he he he he (Sorry, getting a genuinely heart-felt kick out of Irene)
Can someone say….C O N T R A D I C T I O N ? ? ? ?
Quote God's Holy Spirit is not in that Church, and I know we used to belong to the Catholic Church until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. So according to Irene, the Holy Spirit WAS in the Catholic Church but left at some point?
BTW, she doesn't like St. Clement because HE WAS THOROUGHLY CATHOLIC IN HIS THEOLOGY….as were the apostles.
Whether Clements was in the third forth or first century, if He agreed with false doctrine he is wrong 100% I have never read of Clemens and I looked in our Striongs Concordance and it is no wonder because there is only one Scripture about clemens in Phil. 4:3 listed one time. If he was a companion of Paul then why is he not in Scripture with Paul? Maybe he is not so important TO Paul and Peter, they never mentioned him..
My Fathers name was Clemens so if I forgot what He did or did not to do, I really don't care. I do know since we belonged to youir Church at one timer, that the Holty Spirit is not, not, not, not a thousant not in your Church, and never was. Nobody in your Church gets Baptized according to Scripture and therefore no Holy Spirit is present. The priests have done so many sexual
things to young man. Not very good fruits. Also of course you deny it, but the Catholic Church killed Millions who had a Bible and read the Bible. Also you never give Scriptures.
AND I DID NOT SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT LEFT YOUR CHURCH.
WHAT I DID SAY IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NEVER IN YOUR CHURCH, AND WE ARE THE ONES WHO LEFT.
As far as when your Church began, that shows how uneducated you are in Ancient History. My Hsband has studied Ancent History and knows alot. You can laugh all you want to, it only shows how ignorend you are. The Pope and the Bishops have Brainwashed you.
Rev. 18: 4 ..” Come out of Her my People lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do they worsjp Me, teaching for doctrines and commandments of men.”
Worship Maria and the Trinity both are a manmade doctrine, and not of God.
Good luck to you, you are goin to need it.
IreneHi CA,
Is the ritual of infant baptism MAGIC?
No need for understanding or repentance?
Good formula but not of faith and that makes it of sin.Hi CA,
The catholic church is the ark of safety?
You are deluded to think clinging to rebellion is safetyIrene
I got a kick out of this! I hope you are not “ignorant“, but when I read this I had to laugh! (Emphasis mine)
Quote (georg @ Sep. 30 2009,13:11) You can laugh all you want to, it only shows how “ignorend” you are. WJ
Quote (georg @ Oct. 01 2009,05:11) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 01 2009,03:46) Quote (georg @ Oct. 01 2009,00:21) kerwin St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church.
Irene,You have just written the mother of all contradictory statements.
This is great. Hey, everyone check this out:Irene said “St. Clement is one of many so caslled Saints of the Catholic Church.” Notice two things.
1. Clement wrote in A.D. 80. He knew the apostles and was the third successor of Peter in Rome. He is also mentioned in the NT as a companion of the apostle Paul. So we're talking about a man who was approved by the apostles and the NT verifies this.
2. Irene and Georg claim that the Catholic Church was started by Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Now I'm not an expert at math. But I know enough to know that Clement of Rome lived CENTURIES BEFORE they claim the Church was founded.
ha ha ha ha he he he he (Sorry, getting a genuinely heart-felt kick out of Irene)
Can someone say….C O N T R A D I C T I O N ? ? ? ?
Quote God's Holy Spirit is not in that Church, and I know we used to belong to the Catholic Church until my Husband was 47 and I was 46. So according to Irene, the Holy Spirit WAS in the Catholic Church but left at some point?
BTW, she doesn't like St. Clement because HE WAS THOROUGHLY CATHOLIC IN HIS THEOLOGY….as were the apostles.
Whether Clements was in the third forth or first century, if He agreed with false doctrine he is wrong 100% I have never read of Clemens and I looked in our Striongs Concordance and it is no wonder because there is only one Scripture about clemens in Phil. 4:3 listed one time. If he was a companion of Paul then why is he not in Scripture with Paul? Maybe he is not so important TO Paul and Peter, they never mentioned him..
My Fathers name was Clemens so if I forgot what He did or did not to do, I really don't care. I do know since we belonged to youir Church at one timer, that the Holty Spirit is not, not, not, not a thousant not in your Church, and never was. Nobody in your Church gets Baptized according to Scripture and therefore no Holy Spirit is present. The priests have done so many sexual
things to young man. Not very good fruits. Also of course you deny it, but the Catholic Church killed Millions who had a Bible and read the Bible. Also you never give Scriptures.
AND I DID NOT SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT LEFT YOUR CHURCH.
WHAT I DID SAY IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NEVER IN YOUR CHURCH, AND WE ARE THE ONES WHO LEFT.
As far as when your Church began, that shows how uneducated you are in Ancient History. My Hsband has studied Ancent History and knows alot. You can laugh all you want to, it only shows how ignorend you are. The Pope and the Bishops have Brainwashed you.
Rev. 18: 4 ..” Come out of Her my People lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do they worsjp Me, teaching for doctrines and commandments of men.”
Worship Maria and the Trinity both are a manmade doctrine, and not of God.
Good luck to you, you are goin to need it.
Irene
You may not care about Clement…but you should. See since he was a companion and fellow saint with Paul then it follows that he had received the Holy Spirit. So you see, you can't say that the Holy Spirit was never in the Church. You can only say that He left us. Which He most certainly did not and never will.You admit your ignorance of such a major figure of first century Christian history and then proceed to call ME ignorant of ancient history? Are we being serious? I'm waiting for the punch line here.
You get completely refuted like that and all you have to resort to is accusing priests of molesting little boys? Have you lost all objectivity? Does truth even matter to you? I doubt it. If I couldn't defend my beliefs against blatant contradiction like you can't I'd be in big trouble. Yet you seem unaffected. Wow!
You quote Matt. 15:19 which we wrote and of course accept. But, Irene, tell me what 2 Thess. 2:15 says….something about a command to keep apostolic TRADITION…you don't like that verse though, do you?
I'm waiting…
Hi CA,
So the intimidating Rottweilers of tradition hope to validate a false church by nebulous historical links?CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Thanks for quoting 1 John 2:18,19. That verse says that those who have not stayed with the Church never belonged to us.
I doubt “Church” is what he meant but what I quoted is rather vague on that point. Still if you continue on with the next few versus you will see he was most likely speaking of doctrine. He even mentions the written word of God which in this case we call part of Scripture.
1 John 2:20-25(NIV) reads:
Quote But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote All Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at holy baptism. That Holy Spirit agrees with the Church.
If you truly have the Holy Spirit then you will be able to correctly interpret Scripture which destroys your initial argument against Sola Scripture as you stated it was unreliable because of differences in interpretation.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote BTW, which Clement did you quote?
I did not quote St. Clement. I merely pointed out that he stated that he spoke from God as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit. He did not use those exact words. I was going from what you quoted.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Stop trusting in yourself and thrust yourself upon Christ and enter His body
If you knew what that meant then you would not be teaching the false doctrine you do as your doctrine sets no one free from slavery to sin.
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