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Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 27 2009,08:10) Mandy,
As far as I know, all the other writings don't lead you to a “Father.” Having God as a Father to us is unique to Christianity and there is only one way to our Father and that is through the Son. I'm no world religions expert by any means but that is what I have been told. I have had the privilege of having a wonderful example of a earthly father who is now struggling just to breathe and I know the wonderful value of a father/daughter relationship. For God to be a Father to me only brings me great comfort and peace and security for I have had such a wonderful example that has never given me any reason to fear him in any way other than out of respect. Many haven't had that privilege unfortunately and that is very sad and they perhaps have trouble seeing God as their loving Father. Anyway, I'll take the “Father” God over any God that other writings offer.My opinion,
Love,
Kathi
Hi Kathi! I am so happy for you and Mandy, that you had a earthly Father. You are right not all do have that. My Husband and my Father both died in that horrible War. I have missed a Father all my live and I am so looking forward to meet our Heavenly Father and my earthly one too. I did have a Stepfather, but He was not very nice to me, to say the least. Tiffany too is gtrowing up without Her Father. She has cried Her little eyes out, since He lives here in the same city and ignores Her, and cares less, and even pays no Child support. He has been in Jail for it, and cares less if He goes back. The authorities does nothing about it. So sad.
Sorry I went of the subject.
Love IreneDOES BEING CATHOLIC MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
By Ray Ryland
DOES being Catholic make a difference in a person's life? Does it make an eternal difference?
At first thought, maybe not. Vatican II's Constitution on the Church seems to point in that direction. Section 16 names several categories of persons outside the Catholic Church who can (not necessarily will) be saved. The list includes non-Catholic Christians, Jews, Muslims, those who seek the unknown God, even those who have no explicit knowledge of God. Persons such as these can be saved if they earnestly seek to respond to God and to love him on the basis of the best information available to them.
Some people conclude that if it is possible for such people to be saved, there is no point in being a Catholic. Yet there is more to consider. Start with our Lord's command about moral and spiritual growth. “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48, RSV)
When I was a child someone gave me a statue of three little monkeys sitting side by side. Using their paws, one covered his mouth, another his eyes, the third one his ears. This was the well-known “speak-no-evil, see-no-evil, hear-no-evil” trio. In later years I sometimes thought of those monkeys when I read Matthew 5:48. Their message has merit, but is hardly an accurate commentary on our Lord's command.
Consider the word we translate “perfect.” In Greek teleios does not refer to abstract or metaphysical perfection. It is a functional term. To be perfect a thing must realize fully the purpose for which it has been produced. Teleios comes from the noun telos, which means purpose, end, goal.
“You must be perfect” means each of us must strive to develop his unique potential, under God, to the fullest possible extent. These words are both command and promise. The imperative is laid upon us who follow Christ, but we know that only the grace of God can bring about this process of sanctification.
Why this requirement for Christians to seek sanctification in this life? If heaven is our goal, why could not our Lord have narrowed the command to “become at least good enough to qualify for heaven”? Why not, unless the degree of fulfillment as a Christian which one achieves in this life has eternal implications?
Protestants always have criticized Catholic teaching on sanctification. On the one hand, they assume that striving for sanctification undercuts justification by faith. Sanctification is a “work,” a contribution we try to make to our salvation. (Traditional Baptists reject the whole concept of sacrament for essentially this reason.)
On the other hand, in the Protestant approach to the Christian faith there is no real need for emphasizing growth in sanctity. Once you have accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord, your salvation is assured. Indeed, for the converted (“born-again”) Fundamentalist, salvation is absolutely assured. At the moment of death, if you are “saved,” Christ takes you immediately into heaven. And that's it.
All beliefs have consequences. The Protestant lack of an imperative toward sanctity has had consequences. One was brought to my attention years ago, when I was a student at Union Theological Seminary in New York. One of the visiting professors was Douglas Steere, who was a Quaker. He was recognized widely as a leading Protestant authority on devotional theology, what Catholics call “spirituality.”
Dr. Steere gave our class a lengthy bibliography (more than a hundred titles) and told us to read as much and as widely as possible. After two or three days' work in the library with his bibliography, I went to his office. I told him that his course was very helpful, but, I said, “All these books (with a handful of exceptions) are Catholic books. I'm not interested in what the Catholics have to say about prayer. I'm a Protestant. I need some Protestant books to read.”
He smiled as he acknowledged that practically all his sources were Catholic. “In all these years Protestantism simply hasn't developed a literature on prayer. We all have to go Catholic sources to learn about prayer.” Perhaps Dr. Steere suspected the Catholic Church was on to something in its understanding of sanctification. Let's take a look at what the Church believes.
The level of spiritual maturity we have attained at the moment of death is the level at which we shall be perfected through our experience of purgatory. It is the level at which we shall spend eternity. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or ill, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Cor. 5:10). A proverb has it, “As the tree falls, so it lies.”
Our capacity for the Beatific Vision is determined forever at the moment of death. Capacities will vary. Take two containers, one large, one small, and fill each with water. They are equally full, but they hold different amounts of water. So will it be in heaven. There will be varying degrees of blessedness in the lives of the redeemed in heaven; they will be equally full, but with unequal amounts.
“In my Father's house there are many rooms,” Jesus assures us (John 14:2). Augustine says the “rooms” or “mansions” refer to different degrees of rewards in heaven (Tract. 67), and Thomas Aquinas concurs (Summa Theologiae, q. 18, a.2). In the following article Thomas adds, “The more one will be united to God the happier will one be.”
The Council of Florence in 1439 taught that those who have incurred no sin after baptism, and those who have been cleansed of all stain of sin, will “clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the d ifference of their merits.” The Greek version of the conciliar teaching ends with the words, “according to the worth of their lives.”
In a “Letter on Eschatology,” issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1979, we are reminded that, with regard to life after death, we “must firmly hold” two essential points. The first is that there is continuity “between our present life in Christ and the future life.”
The Constitution on the Church (section 49) speaks of the life of the redeemed in heaven in these words: “All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways, share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God.”
At this point someone might say, “All I care about is getting into heaven. All I want is to have those pearly gates slam shut behind me and not in front of me.” Sometimes a student will say, “All I want out of this course is a passing grade; I don't care about anything else.” If that student does get his passing grade, he will get little else out of the course. As for the man at the pearly gates, with that self-centered attitude he may well see the gates slam shut in front of him.
If spouses truly, deeply love one another, they yearn for, they work for, the closest possible union of life. Pity the poor spouses who say, “We don't really work at our marriage any more. After all, we have enough love going to make sure we won't split and divorce.” Not only are they denying themselves the deep joy and fulfillment of marriage. They have set a collision course with unhappiness and even the break-up of their marriage.
Consider some of the Church's teaching about itself. Jesus entrusted “all the blessings of the new covenant” to “the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head.” “For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained” (Decree on Ecumenism, 3).
The next section of the Decree contains says “the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace. . . .” Does it not follow that anyone not in the communion of the Catholic Church does not have access to all divinely revealed truth and
that the non-Catholic does not have access to all the means of grace by which Christ intends to nourish his people?“Baptism,” says the Decree (section 22), “constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” Immediately it clarifies this statement by adding that baptism in itself “is only a beginning, a point of departure.” Baptism is “wholly directed toward the acquiring of fullness of life in Christ.” That fullness–and note the recurring adjective–is “a complete profession of faith, a complete incorporation into the system of salvation such as Christ himself willed it to be, and . . . a complete integration into Eucharistic communion.”
This can only mean that sincere non-Catholics have not fully embraced the truth of the gospel. If a non-Catholic does believe all that the Church teaches but chooses to remain outside its communion, he is in grave peril of everlasting damnation. The Second Vatican Council teaches that ''the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: The one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church” (Constitution on the Church, 14).
Then come these words: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”
These words from the Decree on Ecumenism can only mean that sincere non-Catholics have not been, and as non-Catholics cannot be, fully incorporated into “the system of salvation such as Christ himself willed it to be . . . .” Not having full access to all of Christ's gifts to his people necessarily prevents a non-Catholic from attaining to the greatest possible degree of spiritual maturity, the deepest sanctification, in this life. The fact that an individual non-Catholic's sanctity may–and in many instances probably does–greatly exceed that of many Catholics is irrelevant. The point is that the non-Catholic will not have developed in this life, by God's grace, the capacity for the Beatific Vision he could have attained as a Catholic.
The Decree on Ecumenism speaks directly of the deprivation suffered by non-Catholics. (This, of course, does not apply to members of the Eastern Churches, which have preserved the apostolic succession and all the sacraments.) Non-Catholics “are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those to whom he has given new birth into one body and whom he has quickened to newness of life–that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim” (section 3).
Most serious of all, non-Catholic communities “have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of orders . . .” (section 22). Therefore their members are not being fully fed as Christ intends them to be fed–on himself.
From time to time during my childhood in the Depression years, our family would want something, and in many cases need something, for which we simply had no money. My usual childish, impatient response was to ask, “Then what will we do?” One of my parents would always answer, “What will we do? We'll do without! That's what we'll do.” And the subject was closed.
Jesus Christ gives his Church incalculable riches for the benefit of all his people. What are non-Catholics to do about much–even most–of this treasure? They simply do without– and through no particular fault of their own. But someone is at fault. You and I are at fault, for not witnessing more faithfully and zestfully, for making no effort to br ing fellow-Christians into the fullness of their rightful heritage
The failure (dare I say “refusal”?) of Catholics to evangelize reminds me of a melancholy passage in Acts 19:1ff. The apostle Paul came to Ephesus and found there some followers of Jesus. He asked if they had received the Holy Spirit when they began believing in Jesus. Their answer was, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” They had never heard of the greatest gift God wanted to bestow on them!
For non-Catholic Christians there are countless gifts which are waiting for them and about which they know nothing. One can imagine their responding to a forthright proclamation of the Catholic faith in a manner somewhat like that of those ancient Ephesians:
“We love Jesus, but we have ever heard we can literally receive him into our bodies, in his full humanity and divinity!”
“We know that on Calvary Jesus offered himself to the Father, but we have never even heard that he commands us to join him in re-presenting himself to the Father in every Eucharistic celebration!”
“We know that Jesus has spoken to us through Scriptures, but we have never even heard that he speaks to us today directly through the successor of Peter!”
Why have they not heard? Why are we not telling them? For many reasons, I suppose. Let me speak of one. It involves something we call “bugaboo.”
A “bugaboo,” according to Webster, is “an imaginary object of fear.” Bugaboos are used to frighten people away from a duty or even an otherwise desirable opportunity. For decades, dissenting Catholics and lazy Catholics have used a bugaboo to inhibit or dilute authentic Catholic excitement about the Church and about the joy of being Catholic.
The bugaboo is a vague, trumped-up sin called “triumphalism.” Repeatedly we have been told by these bugaboo-ers that if you say positively the Catholic Church is the one true Church, if you enthusiastically speak of the inestimable benefits and graces of being Catholic, if you aggressively seek to bring others–Christian as well as unbaptized–into the Church, then you're being “triumphalistic.”
The strategy of this bugaboo is to identify articulate, enthusiastic Catholic witness with self-aggrandizing boasting. It is a false identification. We know we can't boast about the Church, because we didn't invent the Catholic faith. All we can do is give thanks for our privilege and express that thanks in witness to non-Catholics.
On this point the Second Vatican Council speaks to each of us. “All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ.” (The phrase “exalted condition” in context means being inheritors of all the riches of Christ in his Church.) In the spirit of Jesus' words, “From him who has been given much, much will be expected,” the Council issues a solemn warning. If the children of the Church “fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged” (Constitution on the Church, 14)
Being Catholic makes a difference, an eternal difference.
Hi CA,
You must be born again.Catholicism has no relationship with God.
Only the Spirit within can produce the fruit of the Spirit.
Transforming yourself is useless vanity and none can save themselves.Rituals and fancy dress do not impress our God and intellectual human religion saves nobody.
Wake up and shake off the offensive mould of tradition.
To all,
In general I consider Protestants and Catholics heretics even though I might agree with some of their tenets. For this reason to speak of their beliefs is not speaking of mine.
Jesus made a promise to his students and that promise is blessed are those that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled. This promise is for those who seek God’s righteousness and his kingdom and so will not be satisfied with anything short of that. I believe this promise sums up why Jesus came and died for us. No religion but the true teaching of Jesus the Anointed One will lead to this promise being fulfilled.
I do not believe that those who do not hear the promise will judged according to that promise but they will be judged by what they know. Therefore if someone hears the call of Jesus and rejects that call they will be judged accordingly.
It is with great sadness I regard those who appear to reject the truth though I hope that perhaps they were not ready to understand it yet. At the same time I have this hope I fear they did understand and rejected it even if they won’t admit it to themselves.
The bottom line is God is just and therefore does what is right, Therefore I am content to let him judge.
May you be blessed to believe the truth that Jesus teaches.
Kerwin…….Amen, Jesus said if that light in you be darkness, how great is the darkness, Much like a person going in a dimly lite room and unless the controller of the light turn up the switch it will remain dark , Peter Put it this way (UNTIL) the Day Star shine in our hearts or minds. Paul also said we see through a darkened or obscure Glass. But we press on to the High calling of GOD. And also to whom much is given much is requires all do not have the same understandings, GOD Knows what we have and what we do not have, and Judges accordingly. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
True G,
The light of Christ within men will increase if men make room being transformed by renewal of their minds.-[Rom12]
But Christ does not live in natural men and lack of submission to the gentle Spirit of truth can leave men ignorant.Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2009,22:05) To all, In general I consider Protestants and Catholics heretics even though I might agree with some of their tenets. For this reason to speak of their beliefs is not speaking of mine.
Jesus made a promise to his students and that promise is blessed are those that hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled. This promise is for those who seek God’s righteousness and his kingdom and so will not be satisfied with anything short of that. I believe this promise sums up why Jesus came and died for us. No religion but the true teaching of Jesus the Anointed One will lead to this promise being fulfilled.
I do not believe that those who do not hear the promise will judged according to that promise but they will be judged by what they know. Therefore if someone hears the call of Jesus and rejects that call they will be judged accordingly.
It is with great sadness I regard those who appear to reject the truth though I hope that perhaps they were not ready to understand it yet. At the same time I have this hope I fear they did understand and rejected it even if they won’t admit it to themselves.
The bottom line is God is just and therefore does what is right, Therefore I am content to let him judge.
May you be blessed to believe the truth that Jesus teaches.
Who are YOU to unilaterally declare anyone a heretic. That is the job Jesus gave to the Church.And, by the way, apart from the Church you don't have a CLUE what Jesus did or did not say.
Please show me ONE Scripture supporting Sola Scriptura. You haven't yet.
You also haven't been able to substantiate why the Canon of Scripture should be what it is.
Please oblige us if you can.
Hi CA,
Which church is this that has all authority?
You will find only suppressed mirth here if you offer the catholic denomination.Everyone but you seems quite able to see through her ridiculous claims and pomp and posturing.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.Scripture gives us support on top of the Spirit.
Without the Spirit, scripture will and has been used for personal agendas.A man filled with the Spirit will love the truth. Not only will he seek it, but he will also understand it.
We do not need the aid of the RCC or any other denomination. Generally speaking they will lead you to the traditions of men which nullify the power of God.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,15:09) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.Scripture gives us support on top of the Spirit.
Without the Spirit, scripture will and has been used for personal agendas.A man filled with the Spirit will love the truth. Not only will he seek it, but he will also understand it.
We do not need the aid of the RCC or any other denomination. Generally speaking they will lead you to the traditions of men which nullify the power of God.
t8 hit it right on the nail. The Catholic Church does not Baptize according to Scripture, and therefore who was only Baptized, or I should say sprinkled, has not God's Holy Spirit. And without Gods Holy Soirit, one cannot understand the things of God. That is what Scriptures tell us.
I wish our Catholic one here would heed, and get Baptized according to Scripture.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,15:09) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.Scripture gives us support on top of the Spirit.
Without the Spirit, scripture will and has been used for personal agendas.A man filled with the Spirit will love the truth. Not only will he seek it, but he will also understand it.
We do not need the aid of the RCC or any other denomination. Generally speaking they will lead you to the traditions of men which nullify the power of God.
Interesting. So would you say that you reject Sola Scriptura?Would you say that the Holy Spirit has revealed to YOU PERSONALLY the entirety of the Christian revelation apart from any other source?
I really am curious.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,15:09) John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
I might regret not asking this. So I'll ask further:What makes you think that this passage is written to you specifically. Jesus is talking here to His apostles.
Notice the context. He says (your version here):
“the Holy Spirit…will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
A couple questions:
1. The context demands that we understand the Jesus is addressing a group of men who had heard what Jesus said to them in the flesh in person. Were you there? Did you hear what Jesus said that He is promising the Holy Spirit would “remind” them of?
2. Have you received an apparition of the risen Christ speaking anything to you?
3. Please inform us of “everything” Jesus said to His apostles….we're waiting. O…and to be clear….we won't accept just Scripture alone for an answer since this verse happens to exist:
“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.” – John 21:25
I'm waiting…
CA………..What makes you think Kerwin is not of the true church of GOD the one that has no building here on earth , but in Heaven. Your eyes seem to be on material building and traditions and ceremonies and chantings here on earth. WE are that building built without hands, A building fitly Joined together by Jesus and the Apostles Him (Jesus) being the Head APOSTLE and the Chief cornerstone of that SPIRITUAL BUILDING built unto GOD the FATHER. IMO
gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2009,15:55) Hi CA,
Do you reject the words of the Spirit of God through Jesus?
No. I accept those.I do reject the words of Satan through you, though.
A man without the Spirit armed with a bible is not necessarily going to see the truth.
A man with the spirit is led into truth. Scripture will compliment this.
Man's spirit cannot conceive of the things of God. The Spirit of God can.The Spirit of God teaches us. So does scripture.
It is good to have the letter and history, but it is better to have the Spirit.
Let's say for argument sake a person filled with the Spirit has no access to scripture. He responds to the gospel and is baptized and receives the spirit. Then sure he will miss out on much history of the faith and the lessons taught through them. he will also miss out on finer details of doctrine and wisdom from the likes of Paul, Peter, and Jesus.
But such a man can still become great in the Kingdom of God. Look at children. Jesus said if you wish to be great, then become like one of them.
What matters in the end is not how much you know, but the fruit in your life.
We are not judged on our knowledge, facts, and stats, but on our works, character, and fruit.Hi CA,
Mark your words.
but thanks all the same.It is an honour to share the derision the Master suffered at the hands of the worldly
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,16:00) A man without the Spirit armed with a bible is not necessarily going to see the truth.
A man with the spirit is led into truth. Scripture will compliment this.
Man's spirit cannot conceive of the things of God. The Spirit of God can.The Spirit of God teaches us. So does scripture.
It is good to have the letter and history, but it is better to have the Spirit.
Let's say for argument sake a person filled with the Spirit has no access to scripture. He responds to the gospel and is baptized and receives the spirit. Then sure he will miss out on much history of the faith and the lessons taught through them. he will also miss out on finer details of doctrine and wisdom from the likes of Paul, Peter, and Jesus.
But such a man can still become great in the Kingdom of God. Look at children. Jesus said if you wish to be great, then become like one of them.
What matters in the end is not how much you know, but the fruit in your life.
We are not judged on our knowledge, facts, and stats, but on our works, character, and fruit.
A man armed with the Bible but apart from the Church in which the Spirit operates to lead and guide into all truth…is not this man lost?To all:
We must ask whether the Bible alone was ever meant by God to be the one and only authentic source of doctrine for Christians.
No question here arises as to the truth of what is contained in the Bible. If a Protestant (or anyone else for that matter) declares it to be the inspired Word of God, containing the “untold beauties and glories of Christ,” no instructed Catholic would dream of disagreeing with him. Difficulty arises only when the claim is made that the Bible is complete, simple, and clear, telling us all that we need to know as regards doctrines to be believed and all that we need to do in order to conduct ourselves as Christians should throughout our lives in this world.
From the outset, for those willing to think into this matter, the claim that the Bible is a complete guide creates an insuperable problem owing to the fact that it expressly declares that it is not complete. All that is in the Bible is true, but not all that is true is to be found written within it. Christ commanded his apostles to teach mankind “all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20). Yet St. John concludes his Gospel by saying, “There are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written” (John 21:25).
One who declares that the Bible by itself is a complete guide is therefore professing a doctrine not only not contained in the Bible, but one at variance with it. In the last analysis, we cannot escape the conclusion that he is but voicing a purely human and Protestant tradition, strongly as he may protest against the reliability of any tradition.
Again, the claim that the Bible is simple is negatived by the Bible itself. Far from supporting that idea St. Peter, in speaking of St. Paul's epistles, declares that in them there are “things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction” (2 Pet. 3:16). That does not sound as if the Bible were so simple.
Finally, if the Bible were indeed clear, how can we account for the fact that Protestants who have taken it as their only authentic guide have so failed to agree among themselves as to what it means that they have split up into over four hundred different and conflicting sects?
What did Christ intend?
It can be said here, a thought to which we shall return later, that the man who declares that he accepts only the Bible as his authority in religious matters does not really mean it. For he really believes in what he himself thinks any given passage of the Bible to mean, which might not be what the Bible means at all. For such a person, the only ultimate authority in religious matters is not that of the Bible, but that of his own judgment concerning it, and he has no assurance that his own judgment is any more reliable than that of others whose interpretation differs from his and who honestly believe his interpretation to be quite mistaken.
I mention this here merely to bring out the fact that the Catholic position is not affected by such difficulties. For it holds that Christ never intended the Bible alone to be each man's “guide book” to religious truth. His method was to establish a Church authorized by him to teach mankind in his name. He chose his apostles, trained them, and commissioned them to go and to teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, “teaching them all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20). He did not tell them to write any books. No books of the New Testament were written until years after his death.
But the first Christians were not without guidance. The Acts of the Apostles tells us that they “were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles” (Acts 2:42). Christ, therefore, meant the official teaching of the apostles and of their successors in the Church to be our guide, not the written Bible which is so liable to misinterpretation by its various individual readers, however sincere they may be.
The Bible, as the very Word of God, is true in itself, but not all the conclusions people choose to draw from it are necessarily right.
SO HOW DO YOU KNOW THE CONCLUSIONS YOU HAVE DRAWN FROM IT ARE RIGHT?
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