Sola scriptura is logically untenable

[Not3in1]

Quote (georg @ Sep. 26 2009,18:06)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,17:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy Mandy !  You would have to ask the Word of God what harm there would be to look somewhere else, rather then the Bible!!! If I believe in another God, what would that be?  I let you answer that question. Is there another Word of God, in another Book?  I have not heard of another, have you? Someone might say that the Koran is the Word of God, but I do nit believe that. Irene

Hi Sis,

Exactly! YOU would not believe it. Because your belief is founded in the bible. But those who's faith is founded in other holy books wouldn't believe the bible! Do you see the catch here?

I get dizzy going around this circle sometimes…..

How are you and Georg doing? Is your computer back and working well?

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,18:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,17:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,17:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,11:33) Hi not3, Sooner or later you do have to commit to the idea of God and His Son and their precious words of spirit and life. Sitting in doubt on the fence gets you nowhere as those who doubt can expect nothing from the Lord God.[Jas] Hi Nick, You sound like my sister.  I would say you sound like my mother but my mother has passed on (so my sister has taken her place in the watching over my spiritual well-being). I appreciate your calling to the lambs, Nick.  I really do.  But I'm not in doubt.  I just don't believe everything you believe.  Does this make you fear for my salvation? Love, Mandy Hi Not3, We carry no burdens. You must live by your own choices. You have the books and can hear the same messages. My brother, With all due respect, that's the thing that drives me crazy about “the books”……….they do not teach the same message to everyone.  Not at all.  Take a looky here at the forum. Love, Mandy

Hi not3,
So hold on to what you have gained and don't toss the baby out with the bathwater because you are angry with God.

half full or half empty?

[kerwin]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy

I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's.

[Not3in1]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,18:45)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's.

Isn't that what religion is? Human effort? Seems so….

The only pure religion according to the bible is to look after widows and orphans….. Other religions teach the same thing.

Sigh…my brain is hurting. Off to bed I go. Thanks for the chat, bro.

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,18:25)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,18:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,17:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,17:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,11:33) Hi not3, Sooner or later you do have to commit to the idea of God and His Son and their precious words of spirit and life. Sitting in doubt on the fence gets you nowhere as those who doubt can expect nothing from the Lord God.[Jas] Hi Nick, You sound like my sister.  I would say you sound like my mother but my mother has passed on (so my sister has taken her place in the watching over my spiritual well-being). I appreciate your calling to the lambs, Nick.  I really do.  But I'm not in doubt.  I just don't believe everything you believe.  Does this make you fear for my salvation? Love, Mandy Hi Not3, We carry no burdens. You must live by your own choices. You have the books and can hear the same messages. My brother, With all due respect, that's the thing that drives me crazy about “the books”……….they do not teach the same message to everyone.  Not at all.  Take a looky here at the forum. Love, Mandy Hi not3, So hold on to what you have gained and don't toss the baby out with the bathwater because you are angry with God. half full or half empty?

Who's angry with God?

[kerwin]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,13:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,18:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's. Isn't that what religion is?  Human effort?  Seems so…. The only pure religion according to the bible is to look after widows and orphans…..     Other religions teach the same thing. Sigh…my brain is hurting.  Off to bed I go.  Thanks for the chat, bro. Love, Mandy

This is how Paul would answer that question.

Galatians 3:3(NIV) reads:

Quote

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Or what I believe is another way of wording the same thing.

Galatians 3:3(KJV) reads:

Quote

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[georg]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,18:09)

Quote (georg @ Sep. 26 2009,18:06) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,17:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy Mandy !  You would have to ask the Word of God what harm there would be to look somewhere else, rather then the Bible!!! If I believe in another God, what would that be?  I let you answer that question. Is there another Word of God, in another Book?  I have not heard of another, have you? Someone might say that the Koran is the Word of God, but I do nit believe that. Irene Hi Sis, Exactly!  YOU would not believe it.  Because your belief is founded in the bible.  But those who's faith is founded in other holy books wouldn't believe the bible!  Do you see the catch here? I get dizzy going around this circle sometimes….. How are you and Georg doing?  Is your computer back and working well?   Love, Mandy

The old one went to Computer Heaven, we have a New one and it is so much faster, and I like it very much.
It was  Birthday present from Georg's Brother.  Lucky us.
About others believing in another Book, I don't even debate with them.  It is best that way.  I don't have to get dizzy that way.
 
Irene

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,18:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,18:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's. Isn't that what religion is?  Human effort?  Seems so…. The only pure religion according to the bible is to look after widows and orphans…..     Other religions teach the same thing. Sigh…my brain is hurting.  Off to bed I go.  Thanks for the chat, bro. Love, Mandy

Mandy: Religion being other peoples ideas and beliefs of what God is saying or the Bible is saying is where the frustration comes from IMO. Here is a possible guideline I use when reading the New Testament. The fruit of the Spirit God is peace, love, joy, longsuffering, meekness, kindness, gentleness, etc.! When reading Gods words these are the feelings one would experience if he has assesed the scriptures properly. That is, knowing that any type of wrath or vengence is for those who deny their salvation. If one accepts his righteousness by faith then he is a receipiant of the blessings of God. Knowing you are a perfected child of God, read the scriptures looking for a blessed inheritance from God, never destruction. God Bless your effort, TK

[GeneBalthrop]

TO All………Just wanted to throw this in, It is i believe important to know who GOD is with regards to who we are, I would encourage all to go and reread what GOD said to JOB, it gives us a perspective of Him and us. His Majesty is awesome, It is also very comforting to read, it shows His ability to give understanding to His creation and How he can also withhold it, it shows how He view things also, it is a great incite to Who and What He is. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,19:32)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,13:48) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,18:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's. Isn't that what religion is?  Human effort?  Seems so…. The only pure religion according to the bible is to look after widows and orphans…..     Other religions teach the same thing. Sigh…my brain is hurting.  Off to bed I go.  Thanks for the chat, bro. Love, Mandy This is how Paul would answer that question. Galatians 3:3(NIV) reads: Quote Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Or what I believe is another way of wording the same thing. Galatians 3:3(KJV) reads: Quote Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

And I will reinerate that religion has become the works of human effort.

[kerwin]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 27 2009,00:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,19:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,13:48) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,18:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's. Isn't that what religion is?  Human effort?  Seems so…. The only pure religion according to the bible is to look after widows and orphans…..     Other religions teach the same thing. Sigh…my brain is hurting.  Off to bed I go.  Thanks for the chat, bro. Love, Mandy This is how Paul would answer that question. Galatians 3:3(NIV) reads: Quote Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Or what I believe is another way of wording the same thing. Galatians 3:3(KJV) reads: Quote Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? And I will reinerate that religion has become the works of human effort.

Then I suggest we test our religion because it is not fulfilling its advertisement.

[Not3in1]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2009,07:12)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 27 2009,00:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,19:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,13:48) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,18:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,12:54) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2009,17:45) Mandy wrote: Quote My beef is in that he is the ONLY way to God.  Does that clear up my concerns better?  I think Cato has a point in that why cannot we look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? Why do you want to look to other so-called inspired writers for guidance and “truth”? I can say that the reason you want to look to Jesus is because he can give you true righteousness.  I will not say it is easy to obtain that gift. Hi Kerwin, Gosh, I've tried to answer your question several different ways and I've erased all of them. I don't look to other inspired writers, but I'm wondering what would be the harm in doing so? Love, Mandy I believe the answer is that at best those teachings attempt to teach righteousness rely on human effort and not on God's. Isn't that what religion is?  Human effort?  Seems so…. The only pure religion according to the bible is to look after widows and orphans…..     Other religions teach the same thing. Sigh…my brain is hurting.  Off to bed I go.  Thanks for the chat, bro. Love, Mandy This is how Paul would answer that question. Galatians 3:3(NIV) reads: Quote Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Or what I believe is another way of wording the same thing. Galatians 3:3(KJV) reads: Quote Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? And I will reinerate that religion has become the works of human effort. Then I suggest we test our religion because it is not fulfilling its advertisement.

Bingo! I'm with you on that, Kerwin.

Love,
Mandy

[Lightenup]

Mandy,
As far as I know, all the other writings don't lead you to a “Father.” Having God as a Father to us is unique to Christianity and there is only one way to our Father and that is through the Son. I'm no world religions expert by any means but that is what I have been told. I have had the privilege of having a wonderful example of a earthly father who is now struggling just to breathe and I know the wonderful value of a father/daughter relationship. For God to be a Father to me only brings me great comfort and peace and security for I have had such a wonderful example that has never given me any reason to fear him in any way other than out of respect. Many haven't had that privilege unfortunately and that is very sad and they perhaps have trouble seeing God as their loving Father. Anyway, I'll take the “Father” God over any God that other writings offer.

My opinion,
Love,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 27 2009,08:10)

Mandy, As far as I know, all the other writings don't lead you to a “Father.”  Having God as a Father to us is unique to Christianity and there is only one way to our Father and that is through the Son.  I'm no world religions expert by any means but that is what I have been told.  I have had the privilege of having a wonderful example of a earthly father who is now struggling just to breathe and I know the wonderful value of a father/daughter relationship.  For God to be a Father to me only brings me great comfort and peace and security for I have had such a wonderful example that has never given me any reason to fear him in any way other than out of respect.  Many haven't had that privilege unfortunately and that is very sad and they perhaps have trouble seeing God as their loving Father.  Anyway, I'll take the “Father” God over any God that other writings offer. My opinion, Love, Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Thanks for sharing this. I also loved my earthly father very much. I was a “Daddy's girl” for sure. I have no issues loving a heavenly father or seeing God in this capacity.

The reason we do not take issue with this teaching is because this is the doctrine we were given – it's what we were raised with. It's our Christian culture.

Not everyone has this upbringing or culture…..that is my point. I'm sure God has provided for this. I'm just not sure how.

Love,
Mandy

[Catholic Apologist]

Salvation for Non-Christians Explained Sola Scriptura

By Joan Summers

Many Protestants I know believe that anyone who does not hold to the Christian faith holds a one-way ticket to hell. Other Protestants allow that non-Christians can be saved, however unlikely or improbable that possibility might be, if they adhere to the limited knowledge of God they do possess. It wasn’t until I studied my Catholicism that I encountered a firm teaching on the possibility of salvation for those who aren’t Christian.

We must have a proper understanding of what the Church means when it teaches it is possible—although not preferable nor easy—to be saved without being a card-carrying member of the Catholic Church. Does it mean that “I’m okay, you’re okay” and that we can dispense with the uncomfortable business of evangelizing non-Catholics? Or does it mean that all religions are equally valid with truth being in the eye of the beholder? Not according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states, “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (CCC 846).

“How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?” the Catechism continues. “Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church, which is his body: . . . the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (CCC 846–847).

The Church provides the means for all to be saved

This passage is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience. These too may achieve eternal salvation, although “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (CCC 848).

This and the recently released Church document Dominus Iesus contradict the relativistic approach to salvation many Catholics (and others) have adopted. In other words, the Church teaches that salvation is only through Jesus Christ and his body, the Church. Yet at the same time it asserts that those who are ignorant of Christ and/or the Church through no fault of their own—what the Church calls “invincible ignorance”—may be saved.

Some people have never heard of Jesus as the Son of God (if they’ve ever heard of him at all—in most Muslim countries evangelizing by Christians is illegal) or have grown up with tremendous prejudice against Christianity or the Catholic Church (i.e., Protestants in Northern Ireland). These are quite different from those who knowingly and willingly reject the truth available to them either by refusing to embrace it or by abandoning it later on.

All mainstream Christians agree that salvation is based solely on the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. The point of disagreement between Catholic teaching and that of many Protestant denominations is whether or not God would apply that redemption (grant the grace necessary for salvation) outside the normative means (baptism and the other sacraments) that he has established.

But in 1 Peter 1:20 and other places in Scripture we read that Christ’s redemption was planned even before the creation of the world. Peter notes that the revelation of this redemption wasn’t given until “at the end of the times,” so there is an immense span of time between creation and the time when God’s plan of salvation would be fully revealed. What about those who lived before this revelation was given? Are they simply out of luck, without any hope of salvation, because they lived before the time Christ would be fully revealed?

God gave hints from the very beginning of a Savior (Gen. 3:15), but they were only hints and not full revelation. There would have been no reason to give people these clues if their salvation didn’t depend on the future work of the Savior. But their salvation didn’t depend on explicit faith in Christ because he had not yet been revealed to them.

Before the Law of Moses

Paul declares in Acts 17 that from the very beginning God’s intention was for men to seek and find him. Paul says even those without any direct revelation of God still have his moral law written in their hearts (Rom. 2:14–15) and can know much about God through the witness of creation (Rom. 1:20). God has made it possible for every person to have knowledge of him, which makes faith in him possible. No one is totally “in the dark,” and, as Isaiah attests, those who seek God and find him will find mercy and forgiveness (Is. 55:66), two necessary components of salvation.

The first covenant God makes with man after Adam and Eve’s fall is with Noah. “Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God” (Gen. 6:9). Noah didn’t know of Christ, but he did have faith based on the knowledge of God he possessed at the time.

After Noah God made a covenant with Abraham, a covenant which is for Abraham and his descendants. Paul says, “The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. . . . That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants—not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all” (Rom. 4:13, 16).

Paul explains that, like Abraham, we have access to God’s saving grace through faith: “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:1). Jesus’ atoning, sacrificial death is what gains us access to this grace, through which we can have faith and be justified.

How do works fit into this picture, especially when we see in Scripture that God judges us based on our works (Rom. 2:6–8, 2 Cor. 5:10, John 5:28–29, Rev. 20:11–15, Rev. 22:11–12)? Turn to the book of James who, also using Abraham as his example, writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:20–24).

As James explains earlier, “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith” (2:18). Faith—which is a gift of grace itself, not of ourselves—is the means through which God applies the blood of Christ’s redemption to grant repentance and give grace to believers so they may be able to do good works (Eph. 2:10), which he will then reward with eternal life. This is in perfect agreement with the passages of Scripture describing God’s judgment based on our works rather than whether we have explicit faith in Christ. As shown earlier, people without explicit faith in Christ can have faith in God and can repent and do good works, all of which are essential elements of salvation.

The Law of Moses

The Law of Moses was given only to the Jews, and, as Paul says in Romans 2:12–16, the Gentiles are not held accountable for revelation that God had not given them. (But t
hey are accountable for what they can know through the natural law and creation.) What then was the purpose of the Law of Moses, which was given hundreds of years after Abraham? Hebrews 10:1–3 says the sacrifices and regulations of the law were a mere shadow of the reality of Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the cross—the blood of sacrificed animals couldn’t take away sin.

Paul says, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose” (Gal. 2:21). “For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:5–6).

What was the point of giving the law if it couldn’t save anyone? Why didn’t God just reveal Jesus right then and there instead of waiting another 2,000 years to reveal him? As Paul explains, the Law was a shadow of the reality to come; it was preparatory in nature (Heb. 10:1–3). “So that the law as our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24). The law was never intended to be the means by which people could “save” themselves (as many first-century Jews erroneously concluded) but was given in part to show them what God’s holy standards truly were, even though they weren’t meeting them.

David was aware of this after being confronted with his sins regarding Bathsheba and her husband, Uriah: “For thou hast no delight in sacrifice; were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased. The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise” (Ps. 51:16–17). David understands full well the purpose of the law: It is to point to his need for God for his salvation and forgiveness. David realizes it is having our heart right with God through repentance and faith that matters.

After the Law of Moses, before Christ

Then what was the fate of Gentiles between the time of God’s covenant with Moses and the coming of Christ? Were they without hope of finding forgiveness and salvation from God, as many Jews believed? Let’s take a look at the book of Jonah, which records events during this time frame.

The first chapter of Jonah shows pagan sailors—who had apparently better sense than Jonah—crying out to the Lord for mercy and asking for forgiveness. Jonah 3:5 records the Ninevites, who were Gentiles, repenting at Noah’s warning of God’s impending judgment. It says they believed (faith) and “turned from their evil way” (Jon. 3:10) (repentance), and God spared them the judgment he had announced through Jonah (God’s mercy and forgiveness). Jonah 4:11 records God’s declaration of love and compassion for the Ninevites to his angry prophet Jonah, who wasn’t quite up to such feelings for them.

Here we have Gentiles—who had no special revelation of God (i.e., the Law of Moses or the gospel of Christ) and who were outside of God’s covenantal family—believing, repenting, and being forgiven by God. We have the testimony of our Lord himself in when He uses two Old Testament Gentiles as examples of God going outside his covenant people to show mercy and grace, which made Christ’s Jewish audience indignant (Luke 4:24–27).

This is biblical evidence that God does indeed care for those who appear to have no hope of salvation. Of course, as Paul notes in Romans 1, many of the Gentiles were wicked and rebelled against the knowledge of God they did have and therefore received God’s just punishment (likewise with the Jews who rejected the knowledge they had of God).

Paul distinguishes between three kinds of people. Those who knowingly reject God receive God’s condemnation (Rom. 1:18–21). Those who try a do-it-yourself way of salvation through following the law will be judged by the law and condemned, since they fail to keep the law perfectly (Gal 3:10, Rom. 3:20, Gal. 5:3). Both of these groups of people have rejected the merciful initiative of God’s grace in offering them salvation.

There is the third group, which actively seeks God and finds salvation in him (Acts 17 says that these can be Gentiles as well as Jews). They are responding to the initiative God makes in anyone’s salvation (John 6:44) by drawing them to himself. Just as people who lived before Christ was revealed didn’t have to know about him specifically to receive salvation, neither do people who have lived since the time of Christ have to specifically know about Christ in order to be saved if he hasn’t been revealed to them yet.

We are speaking here of those who through no fault of their own have no way of knowing of Christ or have not heard of him in a way that they can clearly understand who he is. If God commanded explicit faith in Christ and baptism as the only ways to be saved—even for those who have no way of knowing about Christ—then he would be commanding such people to do something they’re not capable of doing. This would be unjust and incompatible with his character. God doesn’t give us commands that we are not capable of obeying.

After the coming of Christ

Paul assures us that God wills all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). He must then have provided the means for that will to be accomplished, which means salvation must be at least possible for everyone. At the time the gospel first went out it was confined primarily to the Mediterranean lands. So what about the people of northern Europe, Australia, North and South America, southern Africa, and the Far East? The gospel didn’t come to the shores of the Americas until the 16th century. Even today most of the world remains unbaptized. Is the greater part of humanity without any hope of salvation? It would make no sense for God to say he wants all men to be saved and then not provide the means for them to be saved.

Through Christ God has provided the redemption necessary for salvation even to be offered, and that redemption is for all men without exception. Now all that needs to be done is to apply that redemption to each person, which is a way of describing salvation. It is repeated throughout Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith. As Hebrews 11 testifies, this saving faith doesn’t require explicit faith in Christ when there has been no revelation of Him.

This grace was given in the past without means of baptism—and in certain instances it is still given without baptism when people have either no knowledge of baptism or no access to it. Acts 10:45–47 demonstrates unambiguously God giving Cornelius the Holy Spirit (that sanctifying grace necessary for salvation) before Cornelius received baptism. This was after Christ and the apostles had already preached the necessity of faith in Christ and baptism for salvation.

Was God then contradicting himself, or was he demonstrating that he is God and saves whom he wills? Regardless of God’s reasons for making an exception in Cornelius’s case, we still have here a biblical example of God going outside the sacrament of baptism to give the grace of the Holy Spirit.

As was stated recently in Dominus Iesus, those outside the Church have a salvific link to the Church, through which all salvation comes. What that link is exactly hasn’t been revealed to us. But we do know that it exists: Scripture and Tradition attest to its existence.

Joan Summers and her husband, Thomas, are converts to the Catholic faith. She writes from Hallsville, Texas, where thy live with their four children.

[NickHassan]

Hi Ca,
The catholic church can save nobody.
Those who travel with her will inherit her fate.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,16:34)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 27 2009,08:10) Mandy, As far as I know, all the other writings don't lead you to a “Father.”  Having God as a Father to us is unique to Christianity and there is only one way to our Father and that is through the Son.  I'm no world religions expert by any means but that is what I have been told.  I have had the privilege of having a wonderful example of a earthly father who is now struggling just to breathe and I know the wonderful value of a father/daughter relationship.  For God to be a Father to me only brings me great comfort and peace and security for I have had such a wonderful example that has never given me any reason to fear him in any way other than out of respect.  Many haven't had that privilege unfortunately and that is very sad and they perhaps have trouble seeing God as their loving Father.  Anyway, I'll take the “Father” God over any God that other writings offer. My opinion, Love, Kathi Hi Kathi, Thanks for sharing this.  I also loved my earthly father very much.  I was a “Daddy's girl” for sure.  I have no issues loving a heavenly father or seeing God in this capacity.   The reason we do not take issue with this teaching is because this is the doctrine we were given – it's what we were raised with.  It's our Christian culture. Not everyone has this upbringing or culture…..that is my point.  I'm sure God has provided for this.  I'm just not sure how. Love, Mandy

Hi Mandy,
I think that God can know a person without the person realizing who it is that “knows” them.

Matt 25:31-46
The Judgment 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 “The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 “Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 “Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
NASU

To be known by God as someone with the love of God within them seems to be what is important here.

Love,
Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

CA………Go look up where it says by works of (the) Law no flesh shall be justified in an original Greek text, you will find the definite article (the) is not there. It should read by works of Law shall no flesh be justified before God. That completely changes the context of what is being said. By works of Law< means How law (WORKS) which is BY FORCE COMPLIANCE through the medium of FEAR, But when written as the works of (THE) Law that is referencing the TEN COMMANDMENTS as a whole.   Paul was Just saying that by forcing someone (works of Law) to do what is right does not justify them before GOD, why because they are being forced to comply they are not made right in their hearts and therefore are not (JUSTIFIED) before GOD. LAW (FORCED COMPLIANCE) CAN NEVER CHANGE HEARTS. The only thing that can is HOLY SPIRIT (HOLY INTELLECT) from GOD. That is all Paul was saying , He was not Saying the commandments were done away with, Just the forced compliance of them, we with the Spirit of GOD should be Keeping all the commandments of GOD. "The gentiles who have (NOT) the Law< BUT DO THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THEM SHOW THE LAWS OF GOD WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS BY THE HAND OF GOD." So the commandments are not done away with they are Spiritually put into us by the hand of GOD.

gene

[NickHassan]

G,
The Spirit changes and teaches only those in whom He abides.
You must be born again.

Fruit is not of intellect but of love.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 27 2009,09:14)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,16:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 27 2009,08:10) Mandy, As far as I know, all the other writings don't lead you to a “Father.”  Having God as a Father to us is unique to Christianity and there is only one way to our Father and that is through the Son.  I'm no world religions expert by any means but that is what I have been told.  I have had the privilege of having a wonderful example of a earthly father who is now struggling just to breathe and I know the wonderful value of a father/daughter relationship.  For God to be a Father to me only brings me great comfort and peace and security for I have had such a wonderful example that has never given me any reason to fear him in any way other than out of respect.  Many haven't had that privilege unfortunately and that is very sad and they perhaps have trouble seeing God as their loving Father.  Anyway, I'll take the “Father” God over any God that other writings offer. My opinion, Love, Kathi Hi Kathi, Thanks for sharing this.  I also loved my earthly father very much.  I was a “Daddy's girl” for sure.  I have no issues loving a heavenly father or seeing God in this capacity.   The reason we do not take issue with this teaching is because this is the doctrine we were given – it's what we were raised with.  It's our Christian culture. Not everyone has this upbringing or culture…..that is my point.  I'm sure God has provided for this.  I'm just not sure how. Love, Mandy Hi Mandy, I think that God can know a person without the person realizing who it is that “knows” them.   Matt 25:31-46 The Judgment 31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 “The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 “Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 “Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NASU To be known by God as someone with the love of God within them seems to be what is important here. Love, Kathi

Amen, sister!

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