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karmarie: Tell me why then when Jesus was on the cross did he not tell both thieves they would both be with him in paradise. Jesus did not go straight to hell and take back the keys of death and let the captives free. He went home took the forgiven thief to paradise and drew his strength and went into the pits of hell to set those who had not heard of him yet free so they would have a chance to choose..we have been given free will whether they chose to follow him or not is not written. Be silly not to after he just set them free from hell so we know hell is a real place. They had gone to hell because they were born sinners like you and I. We do not sin because we are sinners; we are sinners because we are all born that way. Everyone born is born into sin and given free will to choose which way they will follow. Jesus said I know those whom I have chosen and not all who believe they are chosen are. That may be because of silly concepts as projected here. What I can't understand is how you concoct a theory such as you have. Torment a place of your own hell. Did you not read in Luke 16 the rich man saying he needed a cool drop of water for to cool his tongue because he was in great torment. Key phrase here is “to cool” meaning his tongue is hot. Read the words written and stop trying to twist them around to suit something you can better live with. Revelation 22:18,19
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
That's very dangerous ground to walk on
Amile………what Karmarie wrote makes all the sense in the world, Let me ask you a question did you repent because of fear of being burned up by GOD and cast into a lake of Fire , is fear of Fire you motive for obeying GOD, If so them these scripture may help you, “love cast (OUT) Fear”. “For fear has torment and nothing is perfected in fear”, “the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the lake of Fire”. “You have not recieved the SPIRIT (INTELLECT) of FEAR , but of Love and power and of a sound mind”. Now with all those quotes lets look at another , “FOR THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADS TO REPENTANCE.” And “Godly sorrow works repentance not to be repented of”. and again we are sorrowed unto righteousness. “Brethern you have (NOT) come to that mountain to fear (as they did) but unto that Holy City whose builder and maker is GOD. No where does it say fear is what save us or anyone or gives us repentance. All fear monger will themselves drink from there own potion they themselves have brewed. IMO
Peace and love……………………..gene
Gene: No, I repented because Jesus said to confess my sins and repent when I sin and he would be faithful and just to forgive me my sins and cast them as far as the east is from the west.
As for all your talk about fear? Where in what I wrote did you hear me write anything about fear. Even satan himself knows the scripture and how to maneuver it his way. I shall not be moved.
Amile…….. YOU say you repent because Jesus said to confess your sins and repent. Interesting, what part does the HOLY SPIRIT play in you repentance? Your whole presentation was about fear, of all the consequences of things , and go get a drop of water this place is torment and so on. And by the way we are (NOT) (BORN) sinners we become sinners, A baby is not a sinner, He or she (becomes) one, as he learns from the world. AS John said, ALL that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life (ARE FROM) the world. They are learned behaviors not born behaviors. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Gene: The Holy Spirit plays the role of conviction to answer your question. Without His conviction we have no remorse for our sins. Everything I wrote was not at all about “fear” but was referencing exactly what I said which is exactly what the scriptures say. It is but once to die and then the judgement and there will be a Judgement seat of Christ and a Great White Throne of Judgement. If you choose to fear the two judgements and choose to follow Christ based on that fear that is up to you Gene. What I state was what the Scriptures state. That they will take place and much sooner than you obviously realize.
For your information Gene: Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies
Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”
We are all born with a sinful nature, thanks to our inheritence from Adam we are already born spiritually dead when we are born, conceived in our mothers womb (separated from God) but we die physically. 1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
David says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies. Job 15:1 “What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? Job 25: How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?
David explained that his conception had sin involved. Ps 51:5: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” We as David have a sin nature when we are born, it is not something we learn afterwards. Our actions only express what our nature is. The sin nature is the basis for all sinful habits.
We are all slaves to sin except for Jesus, who did not inherit the sin nature because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and formed by God in the womb of a virgin.
We are all natural born sinners thanks to the fall of adam all mankind fell and are naturally born sinners. Babies are born as were you and I naturally born sinners. It is speaking in the spiritual context we are spiritually born sinners by way of Adams fall and do not become so by learned behaviors because that would be a physical trained behavior. We couldn't possibly have learned physically trained behaviors by the time of birth.
Because humanity fell we can't act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. So your concept falls completely apart. Why do you choose to argue what Jesus taught. He spoke it and it is so. Period.
We don't choose to sin we sin because of our flesh. We are born sinners we do not learn to sin we are already born sinners who continue to sin because we are already sinners. We are born sinners that is why we sin because it is our nature as Paul says you are not born without your nature your nature is born with you when you are born. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners
Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 09 2009,09:19) Yes! It is a place of waiting, this I agree it to mean.
Like a holding cell!
Are you kidding? All will sleep in the grave until the resurrection. Nobody has gone to Heaven and Hell is a hole in the ground or grave. Jesus went to hell for 3 nights and 3 days. He was in the grave. There is no holding place for those that die, that is so redicoulos. That is like saying that there is a purgtory, like the Catholics believe. Not IMO.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (amille @ Sep. 09 2009,18:15) Gene: The Holy Spirit plays the role of conviction to answer your question. Without His conviction we have no remorse for our sins. Everything I wrote was not at all about “fear” but was referencing exactly what I said which is exactly what the scriptures say. It is but once to die and then the judgement and there will be a Judgement seat of Christ and a Great White Throne of Judgement. If you choose to fear the two judgements and choose to follow Christ based on that fear that is up to you Gene. What I state was what the Scriptures state. That they will take place and much sooner than you obviously realize. For your information Gene: Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies
Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”
We are all born with a sinful nature, thanks to our inheritence from Adam we are already born spiritually dead when we are born, conceived in our mothers womb (separated from God) but we die physically. 1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
David says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies. Job 15:1 “What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? Job 25: How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?
David explained that his conception had sin involved. Ps 51:5: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” We as David have a sin nature when we are born, it is not something we learn afterwards. Our actions only express what our nature is. The sin nature is the basis for all sinful habits.
We are all slaves to sin except for Jesus, who did not inherit the sin nature because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and formed by God in the womb of a virgin.
We are all natural born sinners thanks to the fall of adam all mankind fell and are naturally born sinners. Babies are born as were you and I naturally born sinners. It is speaking in the spiritual context we are spiritually born sinners by way of Adams fall and do not become so by learned behaviors because that would be a physical trained behavior. We couldn't possibly have learned physically trained behaviors by the time of birth.
Because humanity fell we can't act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. So your concept falls completely apart. Why do you choose to argue what Jesus taught. He spoke it and it is so. Period.
We don't choose to sin we sin because of our flesh. We are born sinners we do not learn to sin we are already born sinners who continue to sin because we are already sinners. We are born sinners that is why we sin because it is our nature as Paul says you are not born without your nature your nature is born with you when you are born. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners
Hello! You call the Holy Spirit a He, so do you then believe in a trinity? If you do you believe in a false doctrine made by a man. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian that first came up with it. Unfortunately most Churches today believe in that doctrine. Rev . tells us to come out of Her my People.
Deut. 4:35 ” Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God, there is none other God but one.”
Deut. ” Hear O Israel; The LORD our God, is one LORD.
1 Corinth. 8:4 ” And that there is none other God, but one.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all , and through all, and in us all.
And by Jesus own word He said this
John 14:28 …. for my Father is greater then I.I know what John 1:1 says, however we have to remember that the Father is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God. Also the word God, is a title. like our Family name is. We are the Adopted Sons of God and Jesus is Gods only begotten Son of God. Jesus is our elder Brother. We all belong to the Family of God, after our Baptism. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit. Not a person, like the trinity doctrine claims.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (amille @ Sep. 09 2009,14:18) karmarie: I'm not even going to begin to read all of what you wrote. It makes no sense. Are you a Christian? Do you follow Christ? Do you live by Gods Word, example and teachings? Or are you here just to criticize those who don't believe the same as you. I am a Christian and I do follow Christs teachings and I do read, study and believe the bible. I know how to research the context of scripture and no way did God breath and inspire an entire book based on symbolism. Jesus said what he meant and I believe him and nothing you all say will ever change my mind. I'm not an idiot though you may beg to differ and I know what Christ taught. Let me ask you this: What are you going to do when you stand before God the moment you draw your last breath and realize I was right? What then? Be a little too late then won't it? Maybe not, maybe Jesus will stand before you as you're drawing your last breath and give you that one last opportunity..I suggest you take it. Because if you don't, yes, it will be too late. Good night to you Sweetie
Oh so im going to hell now am I? Well I will let God be the judge of that, and DEFINATLY NOT YOUAnd FYI I am a christian
I have been all of my life since I was little
You know nothing.And good for you for knowing everything and researching the scriptures, There are people FYI who love the LOrd but cant even read! They simply just believe!
JOHN 5:
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.MATTHEW 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’And what is the will of the father, and what is lawlessness?
MATTHEW 22:
“ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”Quote (amille @ Sep. 09 2009,10:44) Karmarie: It is written. It is but once to die and then the judgement. That judgment is immediate. Once one dies here on earth, be that they were in Christ upon the earth they like the beggar go straight to Abrahams bosom. Abraham is the father of nations meaning God is Abraham in this case. The beggar went to heaven to be comforted by his father and the rich man was begging God to send the beggar to cool his tongue because he was in great torment. Once we die the judgement is made as to where to send us. Heaven to be comforted (because we lived our lives in Christ upon the earth) or hell to pay for not living in Christ and accepting him as the Son of the Living God and Savior of the World and our lives.
Their will be two judgements after the Second Coming of Christ hence the end of the world.
The Great White Throne of Judgement where those who were not in Christ will be cast into the eternal lake of Fire
The Judgement seat of Christ is where Jesus is our Advocate and will reward us with Crowns which we who follow Christ upon the earth now and when we die will cast those crowns at the feet of Jesus because we know we are not worthy to receive them.
Hell is not a waiting place it is a place where sinners go to pay for their sins and then after the end of the world God will hold court and Jesus will be out advocate and reward us with crowns of glory and those who died in their sins will not receive crowns nor will they have an advocate to defend them. God will open the Book of Life and their names will not be written in that book. Therefore God will say Get thee hence for I know you not. The devil will be happy saying yeah, yeah, he/she did this and that and Jesus will not step forward in their defense because they didn't believe in him or ask him into their hearts. On the other hand When the Book of Life is opened and the devil steps forth to say he/she (who followed Christ in their lives) did this or that Jesus our Advocate will STEP forward and say he/she is under my blood. He/she is a follower a believer of mine and I washed his/her sins away and have written their names in the Lambs Book of Life see here there it is. They come with me and off we'll go into heave forever.
Hi AM,
Why do you say Judgement is immediate in view of Mt 25 and Rev20?Where does it say the bosom of Abraham is heaven?
Jesus called the place the rich man was in HADES and that is not Gehenna, the second death.
Quote (amille @ Sep. 09 2009,14:54) karmarie: Tell me why then when Jesus was on the cross did he not tell both thieves they would both be with him in paradise. Jesus did not go straight to hell and take back the keys of death and let the captives free. He went home took the forgiven thief to paradise and drew his strength and went into the pits of hell to set those who had not heard of him yet free so they would have a chance to choose..we have been given free will whether they chose to follow him or not is not written. Be silly not to after he just set them free from hell so we know hell is a real place. They had gone to hell because they were born sinners like you and I. We do not sin because we are sinners; we are sinners because we are all born that way. Everyone born is born into sin and given free will to choose which way they will follow. Jesus said I know those whom I have chosen and not all who believe they are chosen are. That may be because of silly concepts as projected here. What I can't understand is how you concoct a theory such as you have. Torment a place of your own hell. Did you not read in Luke 16 the rich man saying he needed a cool drop of water for to cool his tongue because he was in great torment. Key phrase here is “to cool” meaning his tongue is hot. Read the words written and stop trying to twist them around to suit something you can better live with. Revelation 22:18,19 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
That's very dangerous ground to walk on
Greetings Amille…..It sounds like you are holding to the words of the Nicene Creed/The Apostles creed….which is not even a part of scripture but the creation of the universal church…There is only one who is in heaven and he sits at the right hand of the father….As for the subject of Hell/Hades/Ghenna these are real places that exist but the only thing burning there at the time was refuse and corpes of dead animals…We are all promised paradise but unfortunately many will refuse the opportunity inspite of the God given knowledge and mercy,they will err on the side of carnality….Revelation speaks sternly to those who would add to or take away from,however,it does not address those who lack understanding because it is Gods will to enlighten with understanding if he chooses and he will choose to enlighten every one of us in his good time…..Now let me remove this board from my eye…..Cindy:
You have got to be kidding me you people are way off track. I can't believe what you are coming up with. Is it so hard for you to believe? Jesus said I and my father are one. When you have seen the father you have seen me.
John 10:30
30I and the Father are one.”John 10:38
38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”Sinners cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven hello…The Bible says: “Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD?” 1 Corinthians 6:9 If you're not going to heaven, that leaves only one other place. “The wicked shall be TURNED INTO HELL….” Psalm 9:17
YOU CANNOT WORK FOR IT! You do not deserve it
“NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy he saved us,” Titus 3:5 If you could “earn” the righteousness of God, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die on the cross. Do you know you mock God when you talk this way?
Research? I know the scriptures I know what the bible says I can quote to you face to face.
Nick: I already explained that if you read what I wrote you will find the answer. Thanks for confirming what I wrote by the way. Perfect! You see, unbeknownst to you, you just confirmed what I wrote, lol That is exactly what I was talking about Matthew 25..duh
Again you confirm what I wrote in Rev. 20. Jesus is about to return. The dead in Christ shall rise first from where they all are and then those who are living in Christ will be gathered up to meet him in the air in the twinkling of an eye. Then the The GWTJ will take place and the Judgement Seat of Christ.
It is written.
I have to go out of town now have a great day
amiel………One in (spirit) does not mean, the one and the same person. Do you simply throw out all the scriptures that show they are not the same beings. There are hundreds that show it , the whole concept of the TRINITY is FALSE, and if you buy into it, I seriously doubt you understanding of scriptures. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
Gene: What?
amiel………On in (spirit) does not make the on and the same person
I seriously doubt you know what you're saying…try again and speak english please, thanks
Quote (amille @ Sep. 08 2009,19:54) karmarie: Tell me why then when Jesus was on the cross did he not tell both thieves they would both be with him in paradise. Jesus did not go straight to hell and take back the keys of death and let the captives free. He went home took the forgiven thief to paradise and drew his strength and went into the pits of hell to set those who had not heard of him yet free so they would have a chance to choose..we have been given free will whether they chose to follow him or not is not written. Be silly not to after he just set them free from hell so we know hell is a real place. They had gone to hell because they were born sinners like you and I. We do not sin because we are sinners; we are sinners because we are all born that way. Everyone born is born into sin and given free will to choose which way they will follow. Jesus said I know those whom I have chosen and not all who believe they are chosen are. That may be because of silly concepts as projected here. What I can't understand is how you concoct a theory such as you have. Torment a place of your own hell. Did you not read in Luke 16 the rich man saying he needed a cool drop of water for to cool his tongue because he was in great torment. Key phrase here is “to cool” meaning his tongue is hot. Read the words written and stop trying to twist them around to suit something you can better live with. Revelation 22:18,19 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
That's very dangerous ground to walk on
Quote And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” NKJV Luke 23:43 Looks like he is just telling him as a promise that he will be in Paradise.
Quote And Jesus replied, “I assure you today, you will be with me in paradise.” NLT Luke 23:43 Looks like a future promise
Quote Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.” NIV Luke 23:43 Again? A future promise?
Quote And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” ESV Luke 23:43 Quote And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.” NASB Luke 23:43 Quote And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” RSV Luke 23:43 Quote Yeshua said to him, “Assuredly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” HNV Luke 23:43 Well what do you think?
I did play a trick on you though. Do you know what the trick is?
I moved one comma! Is punctuation inspired? Nope.
The Early manuscripts in Hebrew or Greek did NOT use punctuation!
Punctuation has been around for less than 500 years.
Hebrewויאמרישועאליואמןאמראנילךכיהיוםתהיהעמדיבגןעדן׃
Greek: kαὶεἶπεναὐτῷὁἸησοῦςἈμήνλέγωσοισήμερονμετ᾽ἐμοῦἔσῃἐντῷπαραδείσῳ
Punctuation can make or break a sentence, it can change the meaning completly.
1) Did he promise paradise that day?
2) Or did he just promise him paradise?
Let's investigate, He did say he would be in Paradise “WITH HIM”, correct?
Quote Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. Luke 24:7 Jesus was in the tomb 3 days and nights, So he was NOT in Paradise THAT DAY.
Quote Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. John 20:17 On his resurrection Jesus himself stated he had NOT gone to Paradise.
Quote And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. So on the 3rd day Jesus was not in Paradise.
Quote Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:19 The 4th day he is still on earth.
Quote And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:26 Look another 8 days, 8 + 4 = 12, still on earth.
Quote And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Act 1:10-11 Jesus was with them 40 days before he ascended to the Father.
So either punctuation is NOT inspired, or Jesus LIED to the theif on the cross. You be your own judge.
Hi CON,
Do you think paradise is heaven?
Or is it the bosom of Abraham?The thief died under the old covenant of course.
Nick………..Jesus was saying it this way. (this day) another word today I am telling you (today) , YOU(SHALL) BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. He did not mean that (VERY DAY). But at a future time He would be with him in paradise. Just more trinitarian confusion, trying to establish that when a person dies they go some where other the the grave. No one has raised but Jesus (ONLY) no one else. We and They must (ALL) wait the resurrection from death. There is none who has ascended no not one, except Jesus.
gene
.Hi and welcome A,
You are right that the words of Jesus in Lk16 are to be believed
Later we may understand them fully.
Folks choke on them a lot.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,14:15) Hi CON,
Do you think paradise is heaven?
Or is it the bosom of Abraham?The thief died under the old covenant of course.
Nick do you know what is the difference between the two covenants?Only a small thing was changed between the two, it is a great thing but it is a small thing.
And yes Paradise is in heaven at this moment, but it will be on earth when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.
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