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DT…….Had you did what I ask you to do, you would has seen that the word “for’. Does take on the meaning of “Purpose of”. It never takes on the meaning of, “in place of”. As in What Jesus did was in place of us, having to do anything.
Jesus said clearly……“whosoever will save his life, (the way he lives) will lose it, whosoever will lose his life, (the way he lives) for my sake, will save it”.
We must all come to live the exact same way Jesus did, in order to attain to eternal life. Jesus’ whole life was to demonstrate, to us all what is required of us all. He did not do it in our place, so nothing is required of us.
Belief and Repentance is required of all, in order to be forgiven by God the Father, and it takes God the Father to give us the power to truly repent, by the effectual working of his Spirit “in” us. We can’t even go to Jesus, “unless the Father draw us”, Just as he said.Your rejection of Jesus as the true Messiah (anointed one) of God, is your down fall DT.
You reject Jesus as a “mediator” between God and men, do you also reject MOSES , as a “mediator”, between God and Israel, or how about all the Prophets do you also reject them as “mediators” between God and us also? God the Father can use anyone he so chooses to meditate between him and someone else. Just as it says,…. “God who at sundry times and in divers manners soak in times past unto the father by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, who he has appointed heir of all things, by (for the purpose of) whom also he made the worlds;”
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
@Gene,
You have to be kidding me with your last response, if I would have done what you asked me to do and looked up the word “for” I would have discovered it can have the meaning of “purpose of.” I’m beginning to wonder if your mental faculties are all there.
Concerning a discussion on Daniel chapter 9, why would I go into any depth speaking on it when you aren’t comprehending the simplest parts our current discussions? I will leave you with this, read Daniel 9:1-19 first before you think you’re interpreting 24-27 correctly. In the first 19 verses Daniel is praying before God and wondering why Israel is still in captivity because the 70yrs of Babylonian captivity prophesied by Jeremiah has ended and Israel is now under Medo-Persian rule. Beginning in verse 20, Gabriel explains what’s going to happen over the next 490 years ending with the destruction of the Temple. This is a continuous 490yrs and not that 483 years have taken place and we’re now waiting for the last seven (aka the “tribulation”) to be fulfilled as christianity falsely teaches.
Also, why did the writers of the King James in verse 26 changed the Hebrew word from anointed to messiah, and not just “messiah” but to “The Messiah”; when everywhere else KJ translated it correctly as anointed. Look it up, verify it for yourself. Did the translators have an agenda; more corruption you wish to ignore.
DT……seeming you don’t do what I ask you to , I do it for you.
the meaning of the word “for”….. Cambridge dictionary ……>
1…..a preposition…..( INTENDED FOR). showing purpose, as in there is a message for, or I’d better buy something for the baby.
2…..a preposition….( PURPOSE) …..having the purpose of, as in…..> There’s a sign they’re saying “boats for rent’, or the pool is for the use of hotel guests only.
3…..for the proposition ( BECAUSE OF) …as in because of or as a result of something, as in, she did 15 years in prison for murder , as in, I don’t eat meat for various reasons.DT… there you go, I have taken you by the hand and clearly shown you , that the word “for’ , takes the meaning of “intent”, “purpose of ” and “because of”. That is exactly how I used it in explaining how it applied to what Jesus did.
As far as the the translators using the word Messiah or Anointed one, there is n difference in the meaning of the word, it’s your rejection of the “truth” of our scriptures, has clouded your mind and caused you to reject some scriptures. Like Daniel 9. THINKING THAT THE JEWS DID NOT KNOW BACK THEN, THE EXACT TIME OF THE (Messiah or Anointed) one birth is also a lie, Pilot was told exactly when Jesus the Messiah/ Anointed one, was to be born, anyone with a honest heart can read Daniel 9 and figure it out for themselves.
As I have said before, you have thrown out the baby with the wash, IMO.
peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene
@Gene,
In the three examples you gave, each have a different way they are used and cannot be interchanged without changing the context of what is being said. Is the usage of the word “for” being used as a “purpose” or “because of”; the context of the sentence will tell you.
In the example “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures”, is a “purpose” or a “because of” being signified? You say Jesus didn’t die for the purpose of our sins; then why did he have to die? How come Jesus’ life wasn’t example enough to “demonstrate” how we are to live? Jesus even says “this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Are you going to say Jesus’ blood was poured out “because of” the forgiveness of sins? No, we must read the words written and it says Jesus’ blood was poured out for the “purpose” of forgiving sin. John the baptist when he sees the Jesus says “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” How do you interpret these two verses?
In your one post you gave “examples” of how you believe “for” is being used. I don’t want your personal thoughts of how/why you believed Jesus died “for” or “because of” anything; that’s opinion and anyone’s opinion can come into play and will be correct in their mind, making yours wrong and vice versa. All that matters are the words written. When you start “interpreting” them, you begin making the words mean what you want them to mean, and a new religion is born. The Bible isn’t like a classic literary poem by Robert Frost that’s open to interpretation, we’re talking about “God’s Word.” How can “God’s Word” be open to interpretation? And, if the spirit of God “revealed” the meaning of a passage, why isn’t it the same revelation given to everyone? The two most important questions everyone who calls themselves “christian” needs to ask, but is to afraid to.
@Gene,
Concerning the usage of “messiah” or “anointed one” I agree it could be used interchangeably, but the KJV translates “mashiach” as “anointed one” everywhere else EXCEPT here in Daniel. The translators then add the definite article “the” before messiah and capitalize the “m” creating a proper noun that give the appearance to be pointing to the Jesus, THIS is your difference.
What else did the translators do to twist the text; looking at the 1611 version of the KJV (link) you will find a semicolon after seven weeks. This indicates a hard stop, like a period, and completes a thought; everything after the semicolon becomes a separate thought. Originally the translators separated the first seven weeks from the next 62; but today, they have been joined to create a “single timeline.” Who counts like this “There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks”, why wouldn’t it just say “69 weeks”? The reason it doesn’t say 69 weeks was there are two time periods being spoken of; the first 7 weeks and the next 62 weeks that follow. I have said it in the past, change the tense, the plurality, or the punctuation and you can change the meaning. Exactly what has been done here; I gave you a link to the 1611 version, now compare that to your current translation and tell me they convey the same thing. You keep telling me I “reject truth”, is this your made up truth or biblical truth? Are you going to accept or reject proof and evidence of corruption or write it off as an original error that was “fixed”? Which then goes back to who counts like this, besides no one. It’s not me who is rejecting truth, it’s you!
Additionally, how can I take seriously an author’s account of “wise men” coming from the east looking for “the messiah” when said author twists Isa 7:14 to say it’s a prophecy of the birth of Jesus when the Isaiah passage clearly has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus or any coming “messiah.” Or says God impregnated a mortal woman. Or uses a genealogy that includes a king who God said would be considered childless.
DT…..Where did I say Jesus didn’t die for the “porpoise of”, or “because of” the sins of the world? What i said was, Jesus didn’t die, “because of”, or the “purpose of” “PAYING OFF”, our sin “debts” in our place, we must all repent of our own sins.
Jesus’ life was to “demonstrate” to the whole world how to have our sins forgiven, and have a right relationship with God the Father., and that “WAY”, IS BY THE POWER OF GOD THE FATHERS HOLY SPIRIT, WHICH CAUSES US TO “REPENT ” AND LIVE OUR LIVES EXACTLY AS JESUS DID HIS LIFE.My point was and is, Jesus’ death didn’t pay off anyone sin debts for them, but he certainly did die for the “purpose of”. “Demonstrating”, to the whole world what it takes to be forgiven our sins, and have a right relationship with GOD the Father. He showed us all the WAY.
As far as Daniel 9, go’s there are hundreds if not thousands of Scholars that totally disagree with you, as to the timeline of the Messiah/Anointed ones birth on this earth. You can deny all the other scriptures also showing his birth also, but to me Jesus was and is the Messiah/Anointed one of God, that came ounce and will come again soon, by 2032, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
@Gene,
If the Jesus died for the “purpose of” and “because of” the sins of the world, but didn’t “pay off” any sin debt, what was the point of his death? I thought the Jesus was the “unblemished sacrificial lamb” that “atoned for the sins of the world”; this “sin sacrifice” didn’t pay anything off? At least the bull did.
Also, explain how a physical death “demonstrates” what it takes to be forgiven? If it’s only the Jesus’ life that “demonstrates” what it takes to be forgiven, how did he show it, he was sinless? When did he lead by example being tempted with lust, anger, murder, pride, money, power, etc in his every day life? We are told he was alone in the wilderness and was tempted with “all things” but didn’t sin. How can this be verified when he was by himself?
Jesus did tell everyone how they should live, got “perturbed” at his disciples often because they didn’t understand him, spoke down to the religious leaders (God’s anointed one’s) because they didn’t accept who he claimed to be, even tossed an entire market place destroying someone else’s property; is this the “demonstration” you speak of?
The more important question is where/when did God say the Messiah was to die for the “purpose of” and “because of” the sins of the world? I can’t seem to find that verse…maybe you know and can share it.I do love your none answer to Daniel 9, all these “scholars” say it’s a prophecy of the Jesus, so it must be true. You didn’t answer why the KJV translated “moshiach” everywhere else as “anointed one”, but in verse 25 it’s translated as “the Messiah.” Why was the semicolon changed to a comma after seven weeks. These are facts, but you accept the fairy tails of “scholars” and the corruption of the translators vs what the Hebrew actually says.
Still waiting for an explanation to how Isa 7:14 is a prophecy of the birth of the Jesus as the writer of Matthew claims.
DT…….If Jesus death paid off everyone’s sins. Then why are people still dying, and their bodies corrupting in the grave. Jesus died but his body never saw corruption, he was resurrected before it corrupted in the grave, why? Because he never sinned and therefore his body was never destroyed in the grave as our are.
What killed Jesus was a bunch of LYING JEWS, who falsely accused him, to the Roman leaders and demanded him be put to death. They were falsely persecuted him, even as you are doing this very day. The said let his blood be upon us and our children, and it was on them, as witnessed by their history, they never had any peace and still don’t to this very day. They rejected who GOD SENT and as such were rejecting God the Father who sent him also.
As far as your “Moshiach, Messiah” thing goes, the book was translated by a different language, anyone who has done any research on the book of Daniel knows should know that, but both words mean the same thing, The “Anointed” one. Your shell games aren’t working DT.
God said (not me), every one will give account of their own sin, before him, and neither shall the Father pay for the sin of the child, nor the child pay for the sins of the fathers, but everyone will give account for their own sins. So tell me how could Jesus pay off anyone’s “sin debt”.
Another point, why did Jesus tell everyone to “repent”, if he was the one to pay their sin debt for them, and why are people still dying if Jesus paid “off their “sin debts”?
Jesus clearly said we must, “overcome as he did” to enter into the kingdom . Does that sound like he did all for us, but what he did do for us “all”, was to “show us all the “Way” to live with God the Father and inherit eternal life. He “demonstrated” to us all the “WAY”. INDEED his life was for us all, and he did suffered the sins of the sinners of this world, but our sin are taken away when we “Repent”, and grow to be exactly as Jesus was, just as it says, “as he was in this world, so are we”.
DT your disdain and contempt for Jesus is obvious to us all, sad!
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
DT…….If Jesus death paid off everyone’s sins. Then why are people still dying, and their bodies corrupting in the grave.
Death remains in the body, but life in the spirit. His death was not for the purpose of saving our bodies, but our souls.
The Bible states that in heaven, Christ “will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). A glimpse of what we will be like is provided in the account of Jesus’ transfiguration.
DT you said……>What then was the point of Jesus’ death? Why did Jesus say he had to die?
What Jesus did was to “demonstrate” to us all, what it takes to have a right relationship with God the Father.
The apostle Paul said the same thing about himself, 1 Co.2;4-5….>“AND my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in “DEMONSTRATION” of the Spirit and power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God”. That is the exact same Jess did, he “demonstrated”, to us all what it takes to have “Faith” in God the Father> he showed us all the “WAY”, he did it all for in that sense, not that he did it in “our place”. As falsely preached. We must all ourselves, by the power of Gods Spirit, come to “repent” of our own sins and through “FAITH” in God, follow in Jesus’ footsteps > it is incumbent on us all that this happens to us all, if we are to enter into eternal life.
The idea that Jesus did it all “in the place of us, is a “LIE”.
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene
Proclaimer, yes our vile bodies do need to be changed, and will be at the return of Jesus, but remember what else Paul said, Php 3:14-15…..> “I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling “OF GOD”, “in” , the anointed Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect , be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, “GOD” shall reveal even this unto you”.
Jesus’ present body and our future bodies are all given by GOD THE FATHER, to him be Glory and honor forever> and to “The man Jesus”, who always does those things that pleases the Father.
peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………gene
@Gene,
You: What Jesus did was to “demonstrate” to us all, what it takes to have a right relationship with God the Father.
Me: This still doesn’t answer the question, how does death create a right relationship with God? God never said to die for your sins to be in a “right relationship” with him, only to repent and turn from your them, AND to follow HIS commands, HIS statutes, and HIS ordinances. WOW, didn’t we already speak on this, as we come full circle.
Also, wasn’t the Jesus “ a ransom for many”? Doesn’t a “ransom” pay for or make a substitution on behalf of someone? What was “paid off” with this “ransom”?
You still haven’t given me a passage where God said the Messiah was to die for the “purpose of” and “because of” the sins of the world? Should I stop holding my breath?
@Proclainer,
Proclaimer, you’re off on a tangent, slide back over and explain what the purpose of Jesus’s death was; why did he have to die? Why did God send his human begotten son as a sacrifice “for” the sins of mankind, when HE is against human sacrifices?
DT…..Death doesn’t , but obedience unto death does, that may be hard for you to comprehend, but Jesus “demonstrated” what it takes to have a right relationship with God the Father. It take putting our “WILLS” to death, and complete obedience to God the Father, exactly as Jesus was and is, and he demonstrated the ‘Faith’ required of us all in order to “PLEASE” God the Father. It’s no different than his ‘FAITH’ was and is.
We must all come to love the LORD our God, with “ALL” our heart, “ALL” our minds, “ALL” our Soul , and “ALL” our might. This applied to Jesus, and also applies to us.
The idea that we don’t have to become exactly like Jesus in order to be save is a LIE, fostered by “fallen” Christianity.
Peace and love to you and yours DT…….gene
@Gene,
You keep running away from this question, where/when did God say the Messiah was to die for the “purpose of” and/or “because of” the sins of the world and to be this propitiation on behalf of mankind to appease HIS wrath against you? It really doesn’t matter if the Jesus took on the sins of the world or not and settled the debt of sin or not; did God say HE was sending someone to do this?
What God did say Ezk 18:21-23 “But even though the wicked person is responsible for his past behavior, if he repents all his sins that he committed, observes all My statutes, and performs justice and righteousness, he will live; he will not die. 22 All his transgressions that he committed will not be remembered against him; for his righteousness that he performed he will live. Since he repented, his previous wickedness will be forgiven, and he will merit life. 23 (God explains why this is so) Do I desire a wicked person’s death? I have no wish to kill the wicked – the utterance of the Lord God. Isn’t it through his repenting his ways, which I prefer, that he will live? Since the preferred outcome is repentance, I lovingly accept the repentance of the wicked.”
I read nothing in this about a messiah figure having to die for the “purpose of” and/or “because of” the sins of the world’ what I read is a loving God who wants HIS child, HIS creation, to live; and HE tells us how to do it. Christianity has it backwards; God doesn’t hate you, HE loves you! With every flaw you have and every sin you have committed, HE is standing there with arms wide open, waiting for you to turn back to HIM and walk in his ways. There is no Jesus required; it’s you and God…PERIOD!! HE’s telling you right here.
How much more evidence do you need that christianity is false?
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