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- July 5, 2009 at 10:45 pm#136220KangarooJackParticipant
THE SHEMA
While the Tanakh provides evidence of the complex, indivisible unity of God, it never teaches polytheism – a number of gods. However, the fact that this unity is complex and indivisible is apparent, even in statements that stress that there is only one God, such as the Shema. Here is Deuteronomy 6:4 as rendered by the Tanakh version:
Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.84
The Jewish Publication Society Tanakh translation includes a footnote to Deuteronomy 6:4 that is important to notice. The footnote reads:Cf. Rashbam and Ibn Ezra. See Zech. 14:9 others The LORD our God the LORD is one.85
“The LORD out GOD the LORD is one” is the classic translation of the verse. That rendering stresses God's unity, and takes the literal meaning of the word “one” which has a numerical meaning. The numerical meaning designated the quantity. As Encyclopedia Judaica (EJ) says:The Shema is in Jewish thought the supreme affirmation of the unity of God and is frequently called 'the acceptance of the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven.' The original meaning of the first verse may have been that, unlike the pagan gods who have different guises and localities, God is one. At first the main emphasis in the Shema was seen to be in opposition to polytheism; there is only one God, not many gods.86
The verse appears to argue against the complex, indivisible unity of God. However, the verse actually supports the concept in a number of ways. First, the English translation “The LORD out God” appears in the singular. However, the literal form of the word God is plural, “The LORD our Gods…” Second, the most significant word to look at is the final word translated “one” (literally) or “alone” (as above). The word is echad. The range of meaning found in echad contains a clear and unmistakable sense of complex unity.One example is found in Genesis 2:24. There, when two persons (a man and a woman) marry, they become “one flesh” (basar echad). In addition to the excerpt above, the Encyclopedia Judaica goes on to cite additional interpretations of this verse. The most interesting is the mention of the Rabbinic work called the Zohar:
Very curious are the references in the Zohar to the three divine names in the first verse of the Shema. These represent the unity of three powers in the Godhead, that is the Sefirot of Lovingkindness, Judgment, and Beauty (Hesed, Gevurah, Tiferet), symbolized by the colors white, red, and green, or the Sefirot of Wisdom, Understanding, and Beauty (Hokhmah, Binah, Tiferet; Zohar 1:18b, 3:263a). The Zohar is strongly anti-Christian in intent and repeatedly stresses that all the Ten Sefirot are a unity with Ein Sof.87
Three powers, three colors, three Sefirot – more “trinities.” Amazing! Then the Encyclopedia Judaica goes on to say that the Zohar takes pains to “repeatedly stress(es) that all the Ten Sefirot are a unity with Ein Sof. The Zohar seems to think that God can be complex, indivisible unity with ten identifiable Sefirot.Here are three more quick examples:
On the word (Elohim) Simeon Ben Joachi says: 'Come and see the mystery of the word (Elohim) there are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other.88
…the union is expressed in the sentence: 'Hear O Israel, TETRAGRAMMATON Elohenu TETRAGRAMMATON is one.' These three are one…89Even so it's with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by TETRAGRAMMATON Elohenu TETRAGRAMMATON three modes yet they form one unity.90
Is the concept of the Trinity a pagan concept? We think not. Is evidence for complex, indivisible unity in the Godhead present in Scripture? The writer of the Zohar seemed to think so. The statements in the Zohar sound like they come right out of the Brit Chadashah. If the Zohar is “strongly anti-Christian in intent,” it is speaking against a misunderstanding of what the Brit Chadashah actually teaches. We run into this misunderstanding repeatedly. The misunderstanding is most often seen in the use of the word “separate.” The Brit Chadashah does not teach that there are three, separate, divine entities – three gods (as Saadya's misunderstanding stated above). The New Testament teaches that there is one God. The one God is a complex, indivisible unity of three distinguishable persons.
——————————————————————————–84Ibid, Deuteronomy 6:4
85Ibid
86Encyclopedia Judaica, CD ROM Edition (Jerusalem, Israel: Keter Publishing House Jerusalem Ltd., 1972)
87Ibid
88The Treasure of Scripture Knowledge: Five Hundred Thousand Scripture References and Parallel Passages, Introduction by R. A. Torrey (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995), Electronic edition
89Soncino Zohar, CD ROM Edition (Shemoth, Raya Mehemna), p. 43b
90Ibidhttp://www.hadavar.org/additional-obj-2-12.html
thinker
July 5, 2009 at 10:48 pm#136221NickHassanParticipantHi TT,
So the Spirit of God which God pours out is another god person?[Jl2]July 5, 2009 at 10:49 pm#136222NickHassanParticipantHi TT,
The trinity is never spoken of in our bible.
Are you sure it is not a pagan idea?July 6, 2009 at 3:51 pm#136295KangarooJackParticipantNick,
I posted this information merely to show that the name “elohim” is regarded as plural and the Hebrew “echad” (one) indicates a complex unity in Deuteronomy 6:4. On the Echad thread bodhitharta himself appears to affirm that echad refers to a “composite unity.”thinker
July 6, 2009 at 4:57 pm#136304bodhithartaParticipantQuote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,03:51) Nick,
I posted this information merely to show that the name “elohim” is regarded as plural and the Hebrew “echad” (one) indicates a complex unity in Deuteronomy 6:4. On the Echad thread bodhitharta himself appears to affirm that echad refers to a “composite unity.”thinker
Unified One simply as in ALL-PowerfulIf God is All-Powerful than All the Powers are from Him not that there is need of any other powers to assist Him as you believe
All-knowing His knowledge is All encompassing he has no need of others to teach or instruct Him. He doesn't need partners to assist Him in knowing as you believe.
All-present He doesn't need to be “sent” anywhere as His Majesty fills the Universe.
July 6, 2009 at 8:55 pm#136338KangarooJackParticipantQuote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,04:57) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,03:51) Nick,
I posted this information merely to show that the name “elohim” is regarded as plural and the Hebrew “echad” (one) indicates a complex unity in Deuteronomy 6:4. On the Echad thread bodhitharta himself appears to affirm that echad refers to a “composite unity.”thinker
Unified One simply as in ALL-PowerfulIf God is All-Powerful than All the Powers are from Him not that there is need of any other powers to assist Him as you believe
All-knowing His knowledge is All encompassing he has no need of others to teach or instruct Him. He doesn't need partners to assist Him in knowing as you believe.
All-present He doesn't need to be “sent” anywhere as His Majesty fills the Universe.
When did I ever say the things above you attribute to me? I think you are arguing against your preconceived notions of trinitarianism.thinker
July 6, 2009 at 10:38 pm#136366NickHassanParticipantHi TT,
If God is a composite one who is the Son of God?July 7, 2009 at 3:53 am#136403GeneBalthropParticipantBD………you have it more right the word GOD (Elohim) simply means a ONE Unit, there are SEVEN SPIRITS with power that compose (ONE) GOD or Elohim, which is controlled by ONE LORD> Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (POWER) is ONE (LORD), not two or three triune anythings. He is called the LORD (He Exists) with (Elohim or Powers) Simply said the LORD GOD and is the (ONLY) TRUE GOD or POWER as Jesus said . IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
July 7, 2009 at 3:57 am#136404GeneBalthropParticipantThinker …………Why do you Trinitarians have to run all around and try to define some obscure translation or a mystery function to support you teachings , when Jesus simply in a few words said it plainly, have you ever thought about that brother?
peace and love……………………gene
July 7, 2009 at 4:47 am#136410bodhithartaParticipantQuote (Gene @ July 07 2009,15:53) BD………you have it more right the word GOD (Elohim) simply means a ONE Unit, there are SEVEN SPIRITS with power that compose (ONE) GOD or Elohim, which is controlled by ONE LORD> Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (POWER) is ONE (LORD), not two or three triune anythings. He is called the LORD (He Exists) with (Elohim or Powers) Simply said the LORD GOD and is the (ONLY) TRUE GOD or POWER as Jesus said . IMO peace and love…………………..gene
yes ALL Powers or Almighty. The key is the plurality is in the form of unified Power i.e. ALL-POWERFUL Jesus is never nor can ever be called The LORD GOD because his Power was given to him from the ONE who exists withe ALL POWER.July 7, 2009 at 3:44 pm#136445KangarooJackParticipantQuote (Gene @ July 07 2009,15:53) BD………you have it more right the word GOD (Elohim) simply means a ONE Unit, there are SEVEN SPIRITS with power that compose (ONE) GOD or Elohim, which is controlled by ONE LORD> Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (POWER) is ONE (LORD), not two or three triune anythings. He is called the LORD (He Exists) with (Elohim or Powers) Simply said the LORD GOD and is the (ONLY) TRUE GOD or POWER as Jesus said . IMO peace and love…………………..gene
Gene,
You are contradicting yourself up and down and all over the place. You say that Elohim means “one unit” which is what WJ and I have been saying. Then you add that this unit consists of “seven spirits.” You have a 7 in 1 unit but you find fault with us for having a 3 in 1 unit. What's wrong with this picture?And if we are apostates because we believe in a 3 in 1 God, then what does your 7 in 1 God make you?
thinker
July 7, 2009 at 3:58 pm#136447KangarooJackParticipantQuote (Gene @ July 07 2009,15:57) Thinker …………Why do you Trinitarians have to run all around and try to define some obscure translation or a mystery function to support you teachings , when Jesus simply in a few words said it plainly, have you ever thought about that brother? peace and love……………………gene
Gene,
I did not say that I agree with the source. If you will read it again you will see that I posted it without any commentary of my own. I posted it only to show that the word “elohim” is viewed as plural which it is. I do NOT agree with the mystery function it speaks about. But you have no place to talk because your “seven powers” view is also a “mystery function.” You need to examine your own mystic views of Elohim.thinker
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