- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Martian,
Who cares what others use to justify their beliefs, a Christian tests to see if the spirit of those beliefs is from God or not. A Christian watches themself to ensure their own believes and actions come from God. The bitterness and anger I hear in your words does not come from God. Please cloth yourself.
Quote But by rendering the Greek words “en” and “dia” as “BY”, they've got SF thinking Jesus is God, because things were only created “BY” God, and this scripture says “BY”.
Mike you have a misunderstanding of what i said.
I have said it many times, that whether “through” or “by” the fact is that Jesus created and had participation in the creation of this universe. I never used this as proof to prove that Jesus is God, i have always state it as it is presented.
So i dont know why you keep on saying that i use this as proof.
I use this as proof only to show that he was not created.
And because I believe they are one and the same, of course everything comes through God, with God everything is possible.You can call it what you want, but the point is Mike You keep on saying that i use this as proof and i dont.
Pierre,
You wrote:
Quote just because of KERWIN does not understand col;1…
I would say KERWIN is wrong.This comment sounds like you are saying that I am wrong because you are right. I hope I am misunderstanding you and you are just failing to provide evidence to support your interpretation.
You wrote:
Quote first i want to clear that you are still wrong; because Col;1….
as to be in accord with the rest of Paul scripturesI am assuming this is your real argument though I see no evidence supporting it. I have already provided evidence in Paul’s words and other places that clearly show they were not teaching that Jesus preexisted his conception. I will now point out that Paul does teach us of the new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:16-19(NIV) reads:
Quote So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
This speaks of the world being reconciled to God through and in Christ. If the world is already in Christ then what need for the new creation?
Romans 8:19-25(NIV) reads:
Quote The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
As Paul states if the Prophets and other of God’s people had Jesus then they had no hope at all for the coming Messiah as they already had him as we do today. I see nowhere that Paul teaches that anyone had Jesus before Jesus’ becoming King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,01:00) Pierre, You wrote:
Quote just because of KERWIN does not understand col;1…
I would say KERWIN is wrong.This comment sounds like you are saying that I am wrong because you are right. I hope I am misunderstanding you and you are just failing to provide evidence to support your interpretation.
You wrote:
Quote first i want to clear that you are still wrong; because Col;1….
as to be in accord with the rest of Paul scripturesI am assuming this is your real argument though I see no evidence supporting it. I have already provided evidence in Paul’s words and other places that clearly show they were not teaching that Jesus preexisted his conception. I will now point out that Paul does teach us of the new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:16-19(NIV) reads:
Quote So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
This speaks of the world being reconciled to God through and in Christ. If the world is already in Christ then what need for the new creation?
Romans 8:19-25(NIV) reads:
Quote The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
As Paul states if the Prophets and other of God’s people had Jesus then they had no hope at all for the coming Messiah as they already had him as we do today. I see nowhere that Paul teaches that anyone had Jesus before Jesus’ becoming King of everything in heaven and on earth.
Kerwinno ,i am not right scriptures are.
the new creation is only possible if you have reach the changes require to be a new creation.
the knowledge of God and the one he send is the most crucial.
this one sentence encompasses the entire truth of our faith.
but how can we know God ?
and how can we know Christ his son??
and how can we find trust in them to have faith?
all those answers are answered in the word of God,only the truth will make you free ,and the truth can only been learned through the scriptures,so that faith would be the result of your knowledge and love for the truth of God.
the only thing missing to be complete is the action you make to conform yourself to all God demands,then the spirit will be given to let you know that you are approved by Him.
Pierre
Kerwin
you do not want to see those scriptures they must be a obstacle to you ego ,
;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himwen Paul says that he is the image of the invisible God ,and also the firstborn over all creation,and all things where created by him and for him………….
also Jn1;1 and others
you try to beleive what is not ,and so believe a lie,the worst you try make others to believe it,
if you want i can show 100 of scriptures that support the preexistance of Christ ,but you know them all ,so it would be difficult for me to show you because of your blindness.
there is only one God and one Son Christ and all things have been created trough him and for him.
and the son was created for his father,
Pierre
Quote (martian @ Oct. 22 2010,08:24) 1. Firstborn does not necessarily mean first birthed. It can be an appointed position as we know Christ was appointed to many position titles.
2. Col 1 15- 17 is about Christ. The Hebrews have no concept of “creating something from nothing”. That is a Western cultural concept. Creation means to fatten or fill up. It carries the concept of bringing to completion. Christ ministry brought all of creation to completion. Without Christ nothing in the world has any meaning.No mystical preexistence is needed to understand this verse. All that is needed is some honest research into the language and culture within which it was written. Of course I have not yet met a preexister that has honesty when it comes to interpretation of scripture. Most or monkey ministries.
Don't think I am back. I am only putting in a point because I was ask to explain certain concepts.
Martian…………Right on brother, they just do not get it yet. They force the text to meet their preconceived ideologies, they are the true separatist that separate Jesus' Identity, they deliberate move him away from Mankind, which is the Spirit (intellect)of the Antichrist at work (IN) them that causes division not only with Jesus and humanity, but also in the body of Christ, the church from the very beginning of it falling into Apostasy as Paul and John both said it would.peace and love to you and yours martian……………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2010,17:29) Martian, Who cares what others use to justify their beliefs, a Christian tests to see if the spirit of those beliefs is from God or not. A Christian watches themself to ensure their own believes and actions come from God. The bitterness and anger I hear in your words does not come from God. Please cloth yourself.
Not angry. It would take someone that I have a bit of respect for me to get angry. I am making fun of the stupidity of the preexisters.
If this venue was even a little bit of a ministry then I might be more careful. However, since forums are (at best) no more then entertainment and especially since the moderators on this site are completely biased it has no importance whatsoever.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 22 2010,04:45) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 21 2010,09:06) Hi SF, “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH):
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
18: And he(Jesus)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…
16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…
1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himselfCan you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?
Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.
Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed J,
You think that interpreting the Bible is based on the ability to read English, this is a false approach, the True Interpretation of the Bible is based on the guidance of the Holy spirit, the orginal content and orginal language.Theology/Cristology 101 – study the orginal, English is flawed.
Your Adding to scripture.
And you got it all wrong.
and it is most certainily YOUR view not truth.You mention many times that “its switching back to object”
with NO proof to suggest that Paul ever intended to switch the subject at all.Quote Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himselfCan you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?
Im not having anyone believe in anything, This is what Paul plainly and directly wrote.
He Created THRONES, (It doesnt say God's throne however) DOMINIONS, POWER, AND PRINCIPLALITES.
None of the above includes that he created God,(because they are the same person)No matter if you want to believe that Jesus is God or not, the truth is the whole subject from 15-19 is about Jesus, becuase in vs 20 he says so that “ALL fullness may dwell in him”
this includes the thrones, dominino, principaliries and power.Quote Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?
Actually the Bible says that the FATHER and Jesus are ONE,
ECHAD. It never says that Jesus was ever seperate nor greater than the father.
Jesus said he is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIGHT, and there is no other way to the Father but by Him. So by him ALL things do Consist.
he is the True Vine, the Redeemer, Col 14-20 proves all of that, which INCLUDES John 1-20 as the “Logos”EXACTLY how can anyone reconcile this belief that Jesus created and existed in the beginnning without saying he is God.
Hi SF,Now that you had your say, are you happy now?
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (martian @ Oct. 22 2010,08:24) 1. Firstborn does not necessarily mean first birthed. It can be an appointed position as we know Christ was appointed to many position titles.
2. Col 1 15- 17 is about Christ. The Hebrews have no concept of “creating something from nothing”. That is a Western cultural concept. Creation means to fatten or fill up. It carries the concept of bringing to completion. Christ ministry brought all of creation to completion. Without Christ nothing in the world has any meaning.No mystical preexistence is needed to understand this verse. All that is needed is some honest research into the language and culture within which it was written. Of course I have not yet met a preexister that has honesty when it comes to interpretation of scripture. Most or monkey ministries.
Don't think I am back. I am only putting in a point because I was ask to explain certain concepts.
Hi Martian,Glad to see you're back!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (martian @ Oct. 22 2010,12:16) To quote Mike, It is none of your business how I come to my conclusions. however I can give you a hint. I learned how to walk with God from Monkeys.
Hi Martian,Watch this movie trailer from the time-line starting at 1:03 to 1:10!
Enjoy!
Quote (martian @ Oct. 23 2010,10:01) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2010,17:29) Martian, Who cares what others use to justify their beliefs, a Christian tests to see if the spirit of those beliefs is from God or not. A Christian watches themself to ensure their own believes and actions come from God. The bitterness and anger I hear in your words does not come from God. Please cloth yourself.
Not angry. It would take someone that I have a bit of respect for me to get angry. I am making fun of the stupidity of the preexisters.
If this venue was even a little bit of a ministry then I might be more careful. However, since forums are (at best) no more then entertainment and especially since the moderators on this site are completely biased it has no importance whatsoever.
martianthe moderators are bias ,they also have a faith and strong believes in what the bible teaches,
it is strange that some may not agree with what scriptures says and so take there own views to be more important than the scriptures them selves ,
that s were the problem lays.Pierre
Pierre,
You wrote:
Quote no ,i am not right scriptures are.
You appear to believe that your understanding is God’s and so do not test it. For example Gene defines the words “free will” literally and thus misses the implied “self” that is meant by the supporters of the free will tenant. These implied words are common in the English language which makes some conversations hard to understand to those that are not initiated in the implied idea already. Like Gene you choose a literal interpretation and so assume that the creation spoke of in Colossians 1:16 is the old one and yet Paul speaks of Jesus in relation to the new and that God is reconciling the world through Jesus. The world is creation which is subject to God’s wrath through one man and which shall also be reconciled to God through one man. If it was in Jesus then it would already be free from its bondage to decay and therefore would not need deliverance.
It is necessary to correctly understand the word of God and to do so you must be led by God.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2010,20:09) Kerwin no ,i am not right scriptures are.
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,WHAT PROFOUND “BIBLE TRUTH”!
Now if only you would believe it's true!God bless
ed j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,14:51) Pierre, You wrote:
Quote no ,i am not right scriptures are.
You appear to believe that your understanding is God’s and so do not test it. For example Gene defines the words “free will” literally and thus misses the implied “self” that is meant by the supporters of the free will tenant. These implied words are common in the English language which makes some conversations hard to understand to those that are not initiated in the implied idea already. Like Gene you choose a literal interpretation and so assume that the creation spoke of in Colossians 1:16 is the old one and yet Paul speaks of Jesus in relation to the new and that God is reconciling the world through Jesus. The world is creation which is subject to God’s wrath through one man and which shall also be reconciled to God through one man. If it was in Jesus then it would already be free from its bondage to decay and therefore would not need deliverance.
It is necessary to correctly understand the word of God and to do so you must be led by God.
Kerwinwe have had many discussion on many topics ,and you come up with your version based on one verse just like your friend Gene does.
the preexistence of Christ is not Col;1;16,
it is scriptural that means it is taught throughout the scriptures and so is freewill,go back in those topics and learn ,if Christ was not the son of God before men creation,this would mean that he is a mare man,NO MAN CAN SAVE ANY OTHER MAN WITH HIS LIVE ,HE ONLY CAN SAVE HIS OWN;
IF CHRIST WAS NOT PREEXISTHING THERE WAS NO NEED FOR GOD TO INTERVAINE IN HIS BIRTH.THE PROCREATION AND THE BLESSING WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFITIANT
I HAVE SEEN THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND MANY OF SCRIPTURES THAT RELATE TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS,
IT APEART THAT YOU HEARTH IS NOT SO LAYED OUT TO LOOK FOR THAT TYPE OF TRUE UNDERSTANDING.
SINCE YOU USING MEN LOGIC YOU ONLY WILL REAP MENS UNDERSTANDING.
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 23 2010,14:52) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2010,20:09) Kerwin no ,i am not right scriptures are.
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,WHAT PROFOUND “BIBLE TRUTH”!
Now if only you would believe it's true!God bless
ed j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjyou are still burbling , going here and there looking if there is something to eat for free,
Christ has feed 5000 for free ,they were there for there belly.
you are beyond understanding
Pierre
Quote ( @ –) martian,Oct. wrote:[quote=kerwin,Oct. 22 2010,17:29]Martian,
So speaks the whacked. LOLMartian……………Amen to that martian. And whacker by the day.
peace and love to you and yours martian………………………………..gene
Martian,
You wrote:
Quote I am making fun of the stupidity of the Preexisters.
It does not sound like satire or mockery to me. It sounds like anger that has grown from a bitter root. Mockery would be to make fun of the fact that Preexisters believe the absurdity that Jesus was born before his ancestors. They must also believe that a person is an adult before they are conceived and that every event occurs in reverse.
Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects. The duty of a Christian is to speak the truth in love and always persevere in hoping that God will free those who have ears but cannot hear from their self delusion.
These forums are one place to attempt to accomplish that goal. Whether your effort is fruitful is up to God and not you; so trust in God and trust in his Son that all things happen for God’s good purpose.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,17:41) Martian, You wrote:
Quote I am making fun of the stupidity of the Preexisters.
It does not sound like satire or mockery to me. It sounds like anger that has grown from a bitter root. Mockery would be to make fun of the fact that Preexisters believe the absurdity that Jesus was born before his ancestors. They must also believe that a person is an adult before they are conceived and that every event occurs in reverse.
Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects. The duty of a Christian is to speak the truth in love and always persevere in hoping that God will free those who have ears but cannot hear from their self delusion.
These forums are one place to attempt to accomplish that goal. Whether your effort is fruitful is up to God and not you; so trust in God and trust in his Son that all things happen for God’s good purpose.
kerwinmen logic;;Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects
your eyes are blinking not fast enough,so you have black spots
scritures are very clear on the preexistence of the son of God (the Word)but this understanding is not given by men but by the spirit of God,and only to those who are in line with his spirit, not the others
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,10:41) Martian, You wrote:
Quote I am making fun of the stupidity of the Preexisters.
It does not sound like satire or mockery to me. It sounds like anger that has grown from a bitter root. Mockery would be to make fun of the fact that Preexisters believe the absurdity that Jesus was born before his ancestors. They must also believe that a person is an adult before they are conceived and that every event occurs in reverse.
Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects. The duty of a Christian is to speak the truth in love and always persevere in hoping that God will free those who have ears but cannot hear from their self delusion.
These forums are one place to attempt to accomplish that goal. Whether your effort is fruitful is up to God and not you; so trust in God and trust in his Son that all things happen for God’s good purpose.
Kerwin………….You have that right God has sent a deluding spirit into both the Trinitarians and the Preexistences mind in order for them to believe (THE LIE) they preach. And this LIE will continue until Jesus comes and Abolishes Just as it is written in 2Ths2. Trinitarians and their brother the Preexistences are both in the same boat of deception. They ignore sound solid scriptures that Show Jesus was the descendant of Abraham and David and try to make them of Jesus' ROOTS they have the most screwed up un-logical and un-scriptural doctrines that only a person who was deluded BY GOD himslef could believe.They think that some how GOD morphed an existing Being and disguise him as a human being and try to pass him of as a True human being when in fact he was a preexisting angle or demigod or GOD just take a pick it all falls into their false teachings. They can't even realize GOD was working with Mankind to perfect us through a man who was perfected and learned how to obey GOD and remain faithful to him , they discredit Jesus and Gods work in Humanity. They are the real separators of Jesus from and His brothers and sisters, they are with out a doubt Antichrists. Full of the deceptions of MYSTERY RELIGION .
They have not even come up with ONE good reason GOD would MORPH anyone and try to pass that person off as a human being , they can't even see that would be dishonest of GOD to Do that in the first place and would not have any thing to do with God's plan to Perfect Humanity through the operation of His Spirit in man and perfect him as he did the Man Jesus.
peace and love………………………….gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
