- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 25 2009,08:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2009,16:31) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 24 2009,11:42) Quote (david @ Dec. 24 2009,19:20) Quote David says that this argument makes him want to vomit. I cannot imagine anyone who claims to be a christian wanting to vomit because of the statement that the Savior is Divine. Thinker, first, Sharp's made up rule is all you have. That's it. So I undertand why you get so emotional when someone attacks your precious rule.
Secondly, I was not vomiting because of a statement that “the Savior is divine.” (Clever and deceiving word use, by the way. Almost back peddling in feel.) I was feeling nauseated by your illogical logic, and the fact that you feel it has any weight or merit after 3 seconds of thought.Please visit the “title confusion trick (second try)” thread if you actually believe this argument has any weight. Or, continue to ignore it and don't answer any of my questions there. Either way, people know.
david
David,
As it says in Titus 2:13-14 it is Jesus who gave Himself for us that He might purify for HIMSELF a peculiar people zealous of good works. Note that He does it for HIMSELF!thinker
JackCheckmate!
They can never recieve him as God because they cannot accept him as their “Only Saviour”!
Jesus says “No man is good”! HMMM.
Yet, Jesus says he is the “Good Shephard” and knows “His sheep” and no man can pluck them out of his hands!
Unlike every other Saviour David brings up in the OT Jesus is not The Saviour by proxy.
It was his own blood the blood of God that saved us!
No other could say they could “purify for themself” a people!
The name and title tricks are created by David and others by assuming that under the New Covenant we have more than “One God” and “One Saviour” and “One Lord”.
They are simply doing lip service as you say.
I find it amazing that David insist that Jesus is “a god” yet he does not call him his god!
He attacks Trinitarians for calling Jesus God and say we are playing “title and word tricks”.
Its obvious who is playing tricks with words, it is those who say one thing but in practice they do another!
WJ
Hi WJ:And I believe that you are my brother in Christ, and my desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Thanks MartyDittos to you!
Keith
Quote (david @ Dec. 25 2009,16:23) God is a savior “through” Jesus.) So, by saying this, it is like admitting that just being called “savior ” doesn't make one God. So stop repeating that it does.
And stop repeating that because the Father created all things by or through Jesus means that Jesus is not God or our only Saviour!Scripturally this argument is flawed!
WJ
David said:
Quote Clearly, when it says “only” wise, only holy and the only savior, it can be meaning he is the ultimate in all those things. Otherwise, the Bible would contradict itself in calling others holy or others, wise.
David,This is just more Arain double speak. If Christ is the “ultimate” Savior then He is God. This is just your “title trick” game. You can't have it both ways. You say also that if He alone is holy then others cannot be holy. The difference is that He is holy in Himself while we are holy in Him and not in ourselves. Paul said that Christ is our holiness:
“But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption” 1 Corinthians 1:30
Note that Paul said that we are “in Him” who is our “sanctification [or holiness].” Christ is “all in all” to us (Colossians 3:11). So any holiness you have is derived from Christ because you are in Christ. But Christ is holy IN HIMSELF.
thinker
David
Jesus is God,because God is in him. This is why Jesus is called all the names of God. Jesus says when you see me you see the Father. The thing I disagree with Trinitarian beliefs is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal to the Father. Jesus says I and the Father are one. But never anywhere does Jesus say they are equal, in fact all he says is that the Father is greater than Him.
How can people read what Jesus says and then say He is equal when He tells us that He is not.
If you believe Jesus is equal then you DENY what Jesus taught. And also Jesus has a God, the Father.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God bless.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 26 2009,18:19) Quote (david @ Dec. 25 2009,16:23) God is a savior “through” Jesus.) So, by saying this, it is like admitting that just being called “savior ” doesn't make one God. So stop repeating that it does.
And stop repeating that because the Father created all things by or through Jesus means that Jesus is not God or our only Saviour!Scripturally this argument is flawed!
WJ
I do not continually say that. I just point out that God created everything “through” Jesus. ie: He used Jesus to create everything. Hence, jesus is never called the 'creator.' Jehovah is.It is circular reasoning to say that Jesus is The God because he created everything (when in fact God created everything “through” Jesus) and then say that BECAUSE Jesus created everything, he is God. ….And since he's God, when it says he “created” everything….. (you get it.)
Over and over again the argument is made that BECAUSE Jesus created everything he is God/the Creator. This is said all the time.
What is never said is that the Bible mentions that (much like God being our SAVIOR “through” his offering his Son, “through” those actions) God created everything “through” Jesus. This is what the Bible says.It is highly dishonest to IGNORE those facts, to completely not discuss them, to sidestep them all the time; to never factor them in.
And WJ I am only repeating that it is glared over and forgotten that God created these things “THROUGH” Jesus.
I am calling you and Thinker on this. It is dishonest to keep repeating these things without including all the facts.(We are told Solomon built the temple, but we know he did it through or by his workers. Solomon provided the means. But he used his workers to do the work. NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES WERE ARE TOLD THAT SOLOMON BUILD THE TEMPLE, WE ONLY HAVE TO BE TOLD ONCE that he did it “through” his workers to understand that his workers actually built the temple. (Such is the case with God creating everything.)
David ………The problem is with the word (through) it can be equally translated BY, or FOR, I believe it should be rendered for, Because this is the reason GOD Created everything To Share it with his Sons and Daughters, Jesus being the FIRST Fruit the firstborn into the Kingdom of GOD and having eternal life given Him , which is GOD'S plan for all man kind. His whole creation is for this purpose. We must remember GOD said He created everything ALONE and BY HIMSELF. There was no one doing this but he (ALONE) as scripture says. The problem is understanding what is meant by the word (through, by, or for). IMO
peace and love ……………..gene
Quote Jesus says I and the Father are one. –uolfan
FAN, to remain consistent, if you use this argument to support the trinity, you also have to include Jesus disciples, for he also said of them, that he and his disciples were “one.”
People look at John 10:
I and the Father are one.”But they don't look at John 17, where Jesus said the same thing, but with MUCH MORE DETAIL.
“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me.
(John 17)Hey, Jesus even gave them the “glory” that his father gave him. I think the disciples might just be part of the trinity.
Notice too that Jesus and his disciples are “one” “just as” Father are “one.”
I'm not sure what you mean by “Jesus is all the names of God.” The very name Jesus means “Jehovah [is] Salvation.” Anyway, what do you mean?
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 27 2009,03:53) David ………The problem is with the word (through) it can be equally translated BY, or FOR, I believe it should be rendered for, Because this is the reason GOD Created everything To Share it with his Sons and Daughters, Jesus being the FIRST Fruit the firstborn into the Kingdom of GOD and having eternal life given Him , which is GOD'S plan for all man kind. His whole creation is for this purpose. We must remember GOD said He created everything ALONE and BY HIMSELF. There was no one doing this but he (ALONE) as scripture says. The problem is understanding what is meant by the word (through, by, or for). IMO peace and love ……………..gene
Jehovah alone did Create everything.If I create a document by having someone use my power, my stuff, my material, and have them do it in my way, then I alone am the creator. But the one I used is the “master worker.” (Proverbs 8:30)
And despite being his Father’s “master worker,” he never laid claim to the title of co-Creator. He glorified God as being the one and only Creator.— Matthew 19:4.
It is significant that Genesis 1:26, when referring to Jehovah and his “master worker” together, says “let us make,” whereas the next verse uses the word “create” when referring to Jehovah alone. Of this Hebrew word for “create,” “A Dictionary of the Hebrew Old Testament in English and German,” by Koehler and Baumgartner, says: “In the O[ld] T[estament] [this] is a theological term the subject of which is God exclusively.”
Also, Gene, do you remember when the Bible says Jehovah alone is holy, Jehovah alone is wise, Jehovah alone is “god.” Jehovah is the only savior. Well, Ehud, was called a savior. The angels are called gods. Many are called holy. Solomon was called wise.
What does this suggest? How does this shape our understanding? Or do we ignore these things, as some on here do?I am against the Trinity view the Father is God Almighty. But Jesus is God because He has God in Him. I believe were on the same page. Jesus says many times the Father is greater than him. They are one in purpose.
Quote David, there you go again playing those word games. This is what you call a “title confusion trick”. According to you…
“One True God” doesn't mean “One True God”!
“Only Lord and Master” doesn't mean “Only Lord and Master”!
“Only Saviour” doesn't mean only Saviour”
THAT'S RIGHT. AND THERE'S 2 REASONS, AT LEAST:
1. It would contradict many other scriptures. Those scriptures that speak of the angels, judges, being “gods.” Those scriptures that speak of Solomon being wise. Those scriptures that speak of israel being “holy.” Yet, God “alone” is holy. God alone is wise.
If WE DON'T SHUT OUR EYES and consider ALL the information, what we're lead to is this understanding:
2. “You are my only “real” freind.” (People do not understand this to mean that your other friends are imaginary.)
“You are my only “true” friend.” (People do not understand this to mean that your other friends are “false ” friends.)People who use normal logic “get” what these sentences mean. People speak this way all the time, even today. What it means is: They are the truest of friends, the ultimate friend, the only real for sure, unquestable friend, in fact, the defintion of friend.
I'm sure, even you, WJ, have used those sorts of phrases. You understand them in everyday speech. Why get so complicated in the Bible?
It would CONTRADICT many other Bible statements to think that Solomon wasn't “wise” to some degree, for the Bible says he was. It would CONTRADICT the Bible to think the holy ones are not”holy” for we are told they are. Yet, the Bible says God alone is holy. (Did your brain just explode?) How can you comprehend these things? With your logic, these things don't exist. You ignore them. They're not there.
I use the whole of the Bible and everything has to fit. You just ignore them.FAN, maybe I misunderstood you. Yes, we agree on many things. Question:
Quote But Jesus is God because He has God in Him. And what if the Bible said others had God in them? Would they be part of the trinity too?
Quote You say Jesus is “a god” then he must be “your god” for you say he is “your Saviour! I have asked you both this before, but where does the Bible say: “Savior” = “God.”
It was one man, Adam, the first Adam, that threw us in to sin and death. And it was one perfect man, the second Adam (Jesus) that “saved” us.
Nowhere does the Bible say that God = savior.
Please show us. You keep trying to sneak that idea past us as though it were obvious, when it is neither obvious, nor scripturally true.
Jesus life (the life of the redeemer) had to equal the life of the first adam. Jesus “became flesh” so he was a man when he saved us. How could a man save us? According to your logic, only God can save us? Well, God did save us “THROUGH” his Son.
But nowhere does logic/definitions/common sense/or anything/ DEMAND that a savior must be God.
In fact, there are many saviors in the Bible who are definitely not God.
Your logic is horrible.
David
I can't answer that because I don't believe in the Trinity. All I know is what the Scriptures say. They say the Father is God and Jesus is our mediator and our Saviour. Jesus has God in Him, but that does not make him equal to the Father. If people would open there eyes and read the bible for what it says without predetermined minds. They could see it plainly.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43)
I do not continually say that. I just point out that God created everything “through” Jesus. ie: He used Jesus to create everything. Hence, jesus is never called the 'creator.' Jehovah is.
So because the Father created everything through or by Jesus this means to you that Jesus did not actually create all things?You said…
Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43) NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES WERE ARE TOLD THAT SOLOMON BUILD THE TEMPLE, WE ONLY HAVE TO BE TOLD ONCE that he did it “through” his workers to understand that his workers actually built the temple.
So according to your logic the actual builders of the Temple were not “Builders”? So Solomon's hands did not do the building? Your example is not a good one because we know that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit participated in the creation of all things litterally!Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43)
It is circular reasoning to say that Jesus is The God because he created everything (when in fact God created everything “through” Jesus) and then say that BECAUSE Jesus created everything, he is God. ….And since he's God, when it says he “created” everything….. (you get it.)
You have created a Straw Man argument and here is why…For of him, “AND THROUGH HIM”, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
Look at the context David and tell me who Paul is speaking of?
Is it the Father? If it is then you see that “All things are THROUGH HIM. Does that mean that the Father is not the source or the creator because all things are “through him’? Of course not!
If you say that verse is speaking of Jesus then contextually it’s calling Jesus God!
Compare the language with a famous misquoted Arian verse…
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE. 1 Cor 8:6
Can you see the exact same language here in speaking of Jesus being the one “THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE”!
Don’t you find it amazing how Paul in the same breath makes Jesus equal to God in Rom 11:36?
Paul makes the terms interchangeable. That includes when he says “One God” and “One Lord”. For you would not say that the Father is not the “only Lord” (Jude 1:4) would you? You would not say that the Father is not the “Lord of Lords and King of Kings would you?
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: “FOR HE (JESUS) IS LORD OF LORDS, AND KING OF KINGS:” and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So why do the anti-trinitarians say the term “One God” can only apply to the Father when “One Lord” or Only Lord” which is applied to Jesus can also apply to the Father? Do you see the hypocrisy and bias of that view?
Your reasoning is circular as you have shown above. For if Jesus is the Agent that by and through all things were created then that makes him the creator just as it makes the builders a builder!
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:2, 3
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands“: Heb 1:9, 10
Somebody's hands was used here David, who was it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 27 2009,06:18) Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43)
I do not continually say that. I just point out that God created everything “through” Jesus. ie: He used Jesus to create everything. Hence, jesus is never called the 'creator.' Jehovah is.
So because the Father created everything through or by Jesus this means to you that Jesus did not actually create all things?You said…
Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43) NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES WERE ARE TOLD THAT SOLOMON BUILD THE TEMPLE, WE ONLY HAVE TO BE TOLD ONCE that he did it “through” his workers to understand that his workers actually built the temple.
So according to your logic the actual builders of the Temple were not “Builders”? So Solomon's hands did not do the building? Your example is not a good one because we know that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit participated in the creation of all things litterally!Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43)
It is circular reasoning to say that Jesus is The God because he created everything (when in fact God created everything “through” Jesus) and then say that BECAUSE Jesus created everything, he is God. ….And since he's God, when it says he “created” everything….. (you get it.)
You have created a Straw Man argument and here is why…For of him, “AND THROUGH HIM”, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36
Look at the context David and tell me who Paul is speaking of?
Is it the Father? If it is then you see that “All things are THROUGH HIM. Does that mean that the Father is not the source or the creator because all things are “through him’? Of course not!
If you say that verse is speaking of Jesus then contextually it’s calling Jesus God!
Compare the language with a famous misquoted Arian verse…
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, “THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE. 1 Cor 8:6
Can you see the exact same language here in speaking of Jesus being the one “THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE”!
Don’t you find it amazing how Paul in the same breath makes Jesus equal to God in Rom 11:36?
Paul makes the terms interchangeable. That includes when he says “One God” and “One Lord”. For you would not say that the Father is not the “only Lord” (Jude 1:4) would you? You would not say that the Father is not the “Lord of Lords and King of Kings would you?
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: “FOR HE (JESUS) IS LORD OF LORDS, AND KING OF KINGS:” and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So why do the anti-trinitarians say the term “One God” can only apply to the Father when “One Lord” or Only Lord” which is applied to Jesus can also apply to the Father? Do you see the hypocrisy and bias of that view?
Your reasoning is circular as you have shown above. For if Jesus is the Agent that by and through all things were created then that makes him the creator just as it makes the builders a builder!
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:2, 3
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands“: Heb 1:9, 10
Somebody's hands was used here David, who was it?
WJ
right. Now you get it. Yes, Solomon did not do the building. But we are told that Solomon built the temple. And we would say that Solomon built the temple. But he did not literally do the building. I think you've got it.We SAY he built the temple. He didn't literally built the temple.
Imagining that he (although it wasn't) the one who laid out the plans, we could say he was the creator of the temple. But he didn't build it, despite the Bible crediting him with doing so.I think you do understand the comparison.
Since only Jehovah is ever called “creator” and since he apparently created everything 'through' Jesus, I would not call Jesus the creator.
(Just like I would not call the person Solomon put in charge of the building [the archtect or whoever] the creator of the temple.)Of course it was by means of God's holy spirit that these things were acomplished. Just like when Jesus prayed for God's holy spirit to do miracles. But who's spirit was beihind it? Gods.
David said:
Quote I just point out that God created everything “through” Jesus. ie: He used Jesus to create everything. Hence, jesus is never called the 'creator.' Jehovah is.
John 1:3 does not say that Jehovah created through the Word. It says that all things came into being through Him (the Word). It means that all things came into being by DIRECT agency of the Word.The Creator is distinguished from Jehovah in Isaiah 48:
Quote 12 “ Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
The One who speaks in verse 13 says that “His own hand laid the foundation of the earth” and that “His own right hand has stretched out the heavens.” Then He says that the Lord GOD [Jehovah] has sent Him clearly distinguishing Himself from Jehovah.This distinction of the One who is speaking from Jehovah is seen even more clearly in the NWT which David trusts. In verse 13 the One who speaks says, “My own hand laid the foundation of the earth” and “My own right hand extended out the heavens.” Then in verse 16 He clearly distinguishes Himself from Jehovah saying,
“And now the sovereign Lord Jehovah Himself has sent me”.
This is so clear! The One who claims to be the Creator is distinguished from Jehovah as He is commissioned and sent by Jehovah.
The Father Himself gives the credit to the Son for the creation saying,
Quote 8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”10 And:
“ You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
There it is! The Father is crediting the creation to the Son's own hands. It is “to the Son” the Father speaks.Therefore, “through” Him means by DIRECT agency of Him. All things came into being through Christ, that is, by DIRECT agency of Him. The scriptures do not say that Jehovah created through Christ in the way David erroneously asserts.
thinker
Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,15:34) right. Now you get it. Yes, Solomon did not do the building. But we are told that Solomon built the temple. And we would say that Solomon built the temple. But he did not literally do the building. I think you've got it.
Thats not what I said at all David. That is your play on words again.God built it, but God did not build it!
I just showed you your example doesn't work because all things are “through God” just like all things are “through Jesus”, but you choose to ignore this point and proceed to create a smoke screen!
WJ
Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,15:34) [(Just like I would not call the person Solomon put in charge of the building [the archtect or whoever] the creator of the temple.)
But David Solomon wasn't the architect was he?Bad example!
Jesus was the architect because all things were made by him and for him!
WJ
do you worship God (jehovah,yhwh) or whatever name you care to use as the only almighty creator and only God to be given praise or worship too.
GIVE ME AN AMEN.
do you have faith in what jesus taught and preached that it was from god his father
GIVE ME AN AMEN.
do you show your worship to GOD by your lifes actions which shows your are doing it by TRUTH. not living life for material and wealth or power, doing ones own fleshy worldly desires.
GIVE ME AN AMEN.
do you try to spread god's message to others.
GIVE ME A AMEN.
IF YOU DO THEN THATS ALL GOD HAS EVER WANTED FROM ALL OF US!
jesus embrased and had so much joy by only hearing people say to him that they believed he was doing god's work and worshiped only his father, and were trying to follow his laws.
don't worship other gods, love and mercy guide your daily life, spread god's message & hope & love to others and have faith in jesus for what he did through his fathers will
Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,12:17) 1. It would contradict many other scriptures. Those scriptures that speak of the angels, judges, being “gods.”
DavidIt wouldn't contradict the scriptures if you properly translate the ambiguous verses you quote.
Remember David “'elohiym” can also be translated as judges, rulers Etc depending on context.
When you can set aside your doctrine and accept the view that YHWH wants his people to see and to obey then you well see that the scriptures you use to support your Polytheism is being misinterpreted and misused.
YHWH (Jehovah if you prefer) says…
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exod 20:3
…and that includes those like Moses whom you say is “a god” yet the Bible teaches no such thing!
10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none“. NWT
That’s your own Bible the NWT David. We know the context here for “'elohiym” is speaking of Jehovah!
There is your contradiction for you imply that these other so-called gods were formed and exist.
But again Jehovah says…
“And YOU are to be on your guard respecting all that I have said to YOU; “and YOU must not mention the name of other gods. It should not be heard upon your mouth“. Exod 23:13
Why were these gods not to be heard out of their mouth David?
Could it be they were false gods created by the minds and imaginations of heathen nations like the Pharaoh who served many gods?
Could it be they were not to speak of these other gods because they were not gods at all?
Yet you insist that there are other gods like the Angels of which you have failed to show one verse that calls Angels “gods”.
We are in a New Covenant David, with a New Testament Bible! The New interprets the Old and not the old the New!
There is no NT scripture anywhere that calls the Angels of God, “god” (Theos) or anywhere that any Apostle calls any being other than the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit their God (Theos)!
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and “that there is none other God but one“. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 1 Cor 8:4, 5
But again, according to you those words have no meaning because you say there are other “gods”.
So when are you going to believe these words and stop promoting Jesus as “a god”?
WJ
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
