Seventh Day Adventists.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I have been given a book about the beliefs of the 7th dayers called “Desire of Ages” They know about God and His Son and many of their teachings are seemingly quite sound.

Their emphasis on the Sabbath stems from their attitude to the Law. Sadly they believe we are all still under the Jewish Law and thus the Sabbath is the watershed of that legalism.

p288
“Man's destiny will be determined by his obedience to the whole Law”

Unaware of the fulfillment of the Law by Christ and thus the righteousness obtained for those in him too they still strive to pleaee God in their own strength thus nullifying the value of that perfect sacrifice.

“You foolish Galatians”

Paul said to those attempting a similar path.

The huge influence of a woman “prophet” also rankles in their history.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Here is a link proveded by Frank4Yahweh to a seventh day assembly and their “interesting” legalistic teachings.
http://www.halleluyah.org .

From there

”   That when a person dies, whether a believer or an unbeliever, he goes to the grave, there to await the resurrection.  No one will ascend to heaven until the resurrection of the just.  Eventually Yahweh the Father will descend to planet earth and will make his dwelling with man (Ecc. 3:19, 20; Acts 2:24-29; Rev. 21:3).”

Included also
”      In observing the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week.  The Sabbath is a part of the Decalogue, yes, but it stands separate and apart also, because of its importance.  It was given to mankind before any other law regarding worship (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 31:12-17; Mk. 2:27; Heb. 4:9, 10).”

”   That some foods should not be eaten.  Leviticus Ch. 11 tells us what our diet should be.”

”   That it is the duty of believers to pay tithes on all our net income (Lev. 27:30, 32; Mt. 23:23″

“· That we should “Fear Yahweh, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man” (Ecc. 12:13).

Any comments?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Here is their salvation message
“Briefly, the plan of Salvation consists of FIVE easy steps:

Faith
We must have
Faith that Yahweh exists, and
Faith that He rewards those who diligently seek Him (Heb. 11:1, 6).

Repentance
Turn away from sin; cease breaking Yahweh's commandments – His law (1 John 3:4).  Feel sorrow – regret – for our sins (Acts 2:38).

Confession
We must publicly confess our faith in Yahshua as the Son of Yahweh (Rom. 10:9, 10, 13, KJV).  There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved; only the name Yahshua (Acts 4:12).

Baptism
Be baptized (immersed in water) in the name of Yahshua the Messiah for the removing of sins (Acts 2:38; 8:38; Rom. 6:1-11; 1 Pet. 3:21).

Our sins are washed away in the act of baptism (Acts 22:16).

Continue
Continue in the faith by keeping Yahweh's commandments (Mt. 22:36-40; Ex. 20:1-17; Ex. 31:12-17; 2 Pet. 1:5-11; 1 John 5:2, 3).

Only those who remain faithful – endure – to the end will be saved; that is, receive everlasting life – immortality (Rom. 6:23; Rev. 2: 7, 11, 17; 2:26-28; 3:5, 12, 21).
“He who endures to the end will be saved” (Mt. 24:13; Ezek.18:24; Rom. 6:23).

If we sincerely do these five things, Yahweh Most High will do all the rest.”

—

My question.
Is there no need to be reborn of the SPIRIT?

Rom 8
” 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. “

And their teaching from Voy Wilks

“We are born of the Spirit at the first resurrection.”

which nullifies the teaching of Rom 8 and many others.

[Proclaimer]

I remember standing near a road once, and a car stopped next to me and the driver threw out a pamplet and then sped off. I picked up the pamphlet and it was from the Seven Day Adventists.

I thought it was kinda funny. Drive by evangelism.
(Not sure if evangelism is the right word, but could think of another.)

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Yes they are deceived by not grasping the fact that the OT Law was given to the Jews and not the gentiles, who never were under that Law. Gentiles cannot please God by obedience to the OT Law as it is impossible to do it perfectly. Unlike the Jews, their ONLY hope, outside of the Mercy of God, is salvation by being reborn into the Son of God.

Rom 2
“12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law”

[Artizan007]

Can I ask what Paul is going on about in Romans 2 – He sounds like a confused man. He changes his mind to suit himself. First he says, we are saved through grace by faith alone, apart from works, or obeying the law, then he says this in Nicks last post… which is it. it is either or, not both…

My question – where does Jesus abrogate the law? He does not, in fact he perfects it and shows the people its original intention. I cannot find anything in the teaching of Jesus were he says anything that Paul says in regards to faith without works and salvation other than believe in Him and His words + doing away with the law, rather Jesus encourages them to obey the Law more than once.

Look at Paul:
Paul who preaches 'faith without works' contradicts himself again.
“For he will render to every man according to his works.” (Romans 2:6; RSV)

Paul said that no one can be justified under the law, yet to the Romans, Jew first, Gentile next, he makes the following statement.
“All who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” (Romans 2:12-13; RSV)

Has Paul come 'round to sanity? He is speaking of faith with acts; works. He is finally speaking of instruction that comes from Jesus. Then Paul discloses the fact that God's punishment will come when, “…according to [my gospel]*, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 2:16; RSV) – *His gospel in reference to whose Gospel I must ask…

Here, when he had the opportunity to reference his gospel directly to Jesus' teachings, Paul raises Jesus to empirical heights by contending that he will be the Judge of all things on the Day of Judgment. Does not Jesus say that in the gospels too? Paul's theology and writings came before the written gospels – yet whose gospel was being questioned in Rome that Paul had to qualify what his own gospel was!

Does Paul ever refer to any of the teachings of Jesus in quotation?

Paul cannot help but trip himself up. His play of words, based on his own inventions, continues to go out of control. Paul uses terminology and concepts that none of the other writers in the NT use.

Then he jumps from judgment to a glorious poly-philosophical statement of circumcision-uncircumcision, to the equality of Jew and Gentile. Even Jesus does not say anything about circumsion in this light. Then in Chapter 3, vss. 10-18, Paul uses a string of quotations from the Old Testament which invoke a strong reaction from theologians and interpreter's alike, all scholars of the word.

“This conclusion, is based on a string of quotations from Psalms 14:1-2; 53:102; 5:9; 140:3; 10:7; Isaiah 59:7-8; Ps. 36:1. These scriptures are a free translation of the LXX, ands are used, “…without reference to their various contexts.” (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 9: Page 425)

How much does it take to understand what this person is about? He obviously had no fear of God for he introduces himself and 'his' gospel with a corrupt use of God's word. And repudiating what he said not moments ago, Paul advises us that, “…no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20; RSV)

This is an absolute contradiction to what he has just said. If we are to be judged by the things we have done, and we have done them properly, we should be judged accordingly, with reward. Paul says this is impossible because God's Law leads us to sin! Yet David says it is perfect… something is not right here. Does God's word contradict?

David says in Psalm 19:8-12
8 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
9 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
10 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
11 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
12 Moreover by them is thy servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

We know that the knowledge of sin came before the LAW, from Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (“You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it lest you die.' But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5; RSV) and later God himself says in Genesis 3:22 “Humanity has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”

The Law came from God, through Moses, to protect man from sin. It was a contract between God and man that came as a gift for those who wished to become God's children. It was upheld by Jesus in its sum total, and he practiced it accordingly. No where does Jesus abrogate The Law.

I am used to the freedom of Western Christianity, but as I read the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke I have to say, Jesus and Paul conflict… and I cannot understand how God's Perfect Law, can be the instrument for our sin or imperfect. Did God create something imperfect – not according to David or Jesus? What kind of unchanging God would suddenly change his views or actions with humanity. Jesus never teaches this… in fact he always taught to obey the Law and that it would not pass away until all is fulfilled. His contention was not with the Law, but with the way that the Pharisees and teachers of the Law twisted and added their laws to it… traditions and additional laws – these people were the ones Jesus says were thieves and robbers, who came to steal kill and destroy life.

WHO other than PAUL teaches this?

[Mercy]

Very good questions, to which I seek answers to myself. I hope somebody here maybe has some good answers they could share with us.

[Cubes]

Hi A007:

As I read your post, some thoughts came to mind, chiefly the subject of godly love.

Jesus said that the greatest of all the commandments is to love God, followed by love for neighbor.  Paul also writes:

[NickHassan]

Quote (Artizan007 @ Sep. 23 2006,10:20)

Can I ask what Paul is going on about in Romans 2 – He sounds like a confused man. He changes his mind to suit himself. First he says, we are saved through grace by faith alone, apart from works, or obeying the law, then he says this in Nicks last post… which is it. it is either or, not both… My question – where does Jesus abrogate the law? He does not, in fact he perfects it and shows the people its original intention. I cannot find anything in the teaching of Jesus were he says anything that Paul says in regards to faith without works and salvation other than believe in Him and His words + doing away with the law, rather Jesus encourages them to obey the Law more than once. Look at Paul: Paul who preaches 'faith without works' contradicts himself again. “For he will render to every man according to his works.” (Romans 2:6; RSV) Paul said that no one can be justified under the law, yet to the Romans, Jew first, Gentile next, he makes the following statement. “All who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” (Romans 2:12-13; RSV) Has Paul come 'round to sanity? He is speaking of faith with acts; works. He is finally speaking of instruction that comes from Jesus. Then Paul discloses the fact that God's punishment will come when, “…according to [my gospel]*, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 2:16; RSV) – *His gospel in reference to whose Gospel I must ask… Here, when he had the opportunity to reference his gospel directly to Jesus' teachings, Paul raises Jesus to empirical heights by contending that he will be the Judge of all things on the Day of Judgment. Does not Jesus say that in the gospels too? Paul's theology and writings came before the written gospels – yet whose gospel was being questioned in Rome that Paul had to qualify what his own gospel was! Does Paul ever refer to any of the teachings of Jesus in quotation? Paul cannot help but trip himself up. His play of words, based on his own inventions, continues to go out of control. Paul uses terminology and concepts that none of the other writers in the NT use. Then he jumps from judgment to a glorious poly-philosophical statement of circumcision-uncircumcision, to the equality of Jew and Gentile. Even Jesus does not say anything about circumsion in this light. Then in Chapter 3, vss. 10-18, Paul uses a string of quotations from the Old Testament which invoke a strong reaction from theologians and interpreter's alike, all scholars of the word. “This conclusion, is based on a string of quotations from Psalms 14:1-2; 53:102; 5:9; 140:3; 10:7; Isaiah 59:7-8; Ps. 36:1. These scriptures are a free translation of the LXX, ands are used, “…without reference to their various contexts.” (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 9: Page 425) How much does it take to understand what this person is about? He obviously had no fear of God for he introduces himself and 'his' gospel with a corrupt use of God's word. And repudiating what he said not moments ago, Paul advises us that, “…no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20; RSV) This is an absolute contradiction to what he has just said. If we are to be judged by the things we have done, and we have done them properly, we should be judged accordingly, with reward. Paul says this is impossible because God's Law leads us to sin! Yet David says it is perfect… something is not right here. Does God's word contradict? David says in Psalm 19:8-12 8 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; 9 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; 10 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether. 11 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. 12 Moreover by them is thy servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward. We know that the knowledge of sin came before the LAW, from Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (“You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it lest you die.' But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5; RSV) and later God himself says in Genesis 3:22 “Humanity has become like one of us, knowing good and evil” The Law came from God, through Moses, to protect man from sin. It was a contract between God and man that came as a gift for those who wished to become God's children. It was upheld by Jesus in its sum total, and he practiced it accordingly. No where does Jesus abrogate The Law. I am used to the freedom of Western Christianity, but as I read the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke I have to say, Jesus and Paul conflict… and I cannot understand how God's Perfect Law, can be the instrument for our sin or imperfect. Did God create something imperfect – not according to David or Jesus? What kind of unchanging God would suddenly change his views or actions with humanity. Jesus never teaches this… in fact he always taught to obey the Law and that it would not pass away until all is fulfilled. His contention was not with the Law, but with the way that the Pharisees and teachers of the Law twisted and added their laws to it… traditions and additional laws – these people were the ones Jesus says were thieves and robbers, who came to steal kill and destroy life. WHO other than PAUL teaches this?

Hi A7,
Paul never contradicts Christ because Paul's words are all the words of Christ's Spirit within him. Paul is always simply enlarging and applying the gospel for the hearers.

Paul said.
“It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me'

I believe him.

You cannot find a single word from the mouth of Paul that is not pure truth and godly Wisdom as if from Christ himself, and thus from God too by the Spirit.

Jesus spoke much about the Law in reply to questions about it from the Jews. He is truth and cannot lie and thus men dneed to be careful as to the questions asked of him. We, as gentiles were never under that Law so these matters are of interest but not binding rules. He showed the watershed of faith between law and grace when speaking with the unsatisfied rich young man.

The Law never diasppears but remains as a standard and an guide but not for us an arbiter of life and death. He tightened up the Law to make fulfillment impossible for other natural men and then perfectly fulfilled it himself to effectively close that door.

Paul in Romans and Galatians was arguing with new Jewish converts showing them the Law was no longer their master but Jesus was and encouraging them to move on to following the new Law of the Spirit within them.

Judgement of mankind too is by Jesus and of works.

Those who are found in Christ appear before the tribunal of Christ and this judgement is of the branches of the vine and according to the fruit produced by the investment of the Spirit of God flowing naturally through us as sap. It is a judgement of the saved and shown in the parable of the telents. It is not our works but those wrought by God through us. It is a judgement of reward and should not be
of condemnation.

1000 years later the rest of unsaved mankind appears before the White throne and opportunity for salvation now as written is very limited. They have not been reborn into Christ and are outside of the promises of God reliant only on His mercy.

The only mercy accorded them is towards those who showed mercy towards those in Jesus as shown in Matt 25. It is far safer to be reborn of water and the Spirit into Jesus.

[kenrch]

Isa 42:21 It pleased Jehovah, for his righteousness' sake, to magnify the law, and make it honorable.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Mat 5:28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus came and magnified the Law. The Law is no longer physical but spiritual. That is why in the OT you could lust and not sin. But now that the Law is spiritual it is a sin to
lust.

Jesus said:Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the scripture:
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of the Pharisees WAS the LETTER of the Law not the SPIRIT of the Law!

In Matt. 5:21-48 Jesus explains the differance, what was done then and what He “expects” of us NOW!

So are we under the Letter of the Law NO! We are under a more strict SPIRITUAL Law! We have the Holy Spirit to guide us now and to convict us if necessary.

Here is an analogy:
You are walking along and find a wallet/billfold it has money in it. You take the money and throw the wallet/billfold away. Hey! You found that money you didn't steal it! That is the Old Testament Law.

Again same as above but now you are led by the Spirit and you come across the wallet/billfold with money in it. Well look what I found your brain tells you. But the Spirit says NO!, NO!,NO look in the wallet find out who the wallet/billfold belongs to and RETURN it! New Testament Law

If you had disobeyed the Holy Spirit then my friend you HAVE sinned.

Paul had a hard time explaining this to the people at that time. In fact so hard a time that Peter said Paul's writings were hard to understand (2Peter 3:15-16).
Paul's writings are hard to understand as Peter said. That is why one minute Paul is saying “we are not under the law but grace” and the next minute he is saying God forbid.

In Romans 7 & 8 Paul seems to get it somewhat straight.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.
Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [SPIRIT]
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
*Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; “for it is not subject to the law of God”, neither indeed can it be:
Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So we are to do as Jesus fulfill the Law NOT do away with the Law!

Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? “God forbid: nay”, “WE ESTABLISH THE LAW”.

So then, are the Ten Commandment Law of God done away with?

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
Are you not a gentile?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2006,22:35)

Hi kenrch, Are you not a gentile?

Ha! No Nick I'm a Christian a son of God and brother of Jesus who kept and fulfilled the Law.

[kenrch]

Try reading it again Nick.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
You say
“Here is the scripture:
Mat 5:20  For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

Indeed as our own righteousness is as filthy rags we need the righteousness of the Son of God to save us, not our own. The Pharisees thought their efforts were sufficient, obeying in detail but not in spirit and we do not do that.

God has put the law of the Spirit in us to teach us from within and enable us to walk in the ways of jesus.We need to be covered by his robe. Then the Father sees the Son when he sees us and not our weak and useless efforts-we are not saved by our works but his.

Matt 6
“33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and HIS righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

Lk 15
” 19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:”

[kenrch]

Nick if you read the rest of the chapter you will see that Jesus is explaining the difference between the OT Law and the New Testament law.

The Pharisees had the “letter” of the law. While the spiritual law is written on our heart. And is spiritual and not physical.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
And will your own righteousness ever be enough?
We are given salvation in Christ who lives and works through us and the only useful thing we can do is let the Spirit control our lives and produce the natural fruit of the true vine.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2006,22:59)

Hi kenrch, And will your own righteousness ever be enough? We are given salvation in Christ who lives and works through us and the only useful thing we can do is let the Spirit control our lives and produce the natural fruit of the true vine.

Nick is your righteousness above that of the Pharisees?

That which is Flesh is Flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit.

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; “for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:”

[kenrch]

Nick don't run away. Really, You don't know everything, do you? What does the Holy Spirit say about what I wrote?

[kenrch]

Does the Spirit bear witness to what I said is true or false?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 27 2006,23:02)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2006,22:59) Hi kenrch, And will your own righteousness ever be enough? We are given salvation in Christ who lives and works through us and the only useful thing we can do is let the Spirit control our lives and produce the natural fruit of the true vine. Nick is your righteousness above that of the Pharisees? That which is Flesh is Flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit. Rom 8:7  because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; “for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:”

Hi kenrch,
Is the righteousness of the Son above that of the Pharisees? Surely you know it is.
That is what we can claim.
It is not of our works and they could never be good enough.

Ps 46
” 7The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

8Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.

9He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

10Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

11The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.”

Heb 4
” 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. “

[Author]

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