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You could be a Christian an original Christian if
You understood Jesus was not under the law of sacrifice an offering, he did not have to die an rise again as the law commanded him to do. his entry as small baby who could not talk yet was as his death, controlled, not that any of that would set an alarm off to wake up
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2013,12:12) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 22 2013,15:09) No Ed, that wasn't “scripture” when Paul said it, he was talking about the OT, and it's just Paul's opinion.
But Jesus said similar things, Colter. He even said that not one letter of the Law and the Prophets will pass away without being fulfilled, right?Isn't this the same Law and Prophets that you say was made up by exiled Jews?
Mikeboll64,Can we ever get beyond the all or nothing accusations? I NEVER said that the law and the prophets were made up, I said that during the Babylonian captivity, after the Israelites lost Israel, that the Hebrew priest redacted the OT books in response to the diminishing faith of the scattered Israelites who were once again in bondage. Their intentions were good, it worked and the NEVER claimed to be writing Gods word in that age.
Did you know that there are no secular history books of the Israelites remaining from that period even though those very same books are mentioned in the scripture? “The Doings of the Kings of Israel” and “The Doings of the Kings of Judah” are referenced yet the scripture story is all that remains.
(838.3) 74:8.11 When the Jewish priests returned to Jerusalem, they had already completed the writing of their narrative of the beginning of things. Soon they made claims that this recital was a recently discovered story of creation written by Moses. But the contemporary Hebrews of around 500 B.C. did not consider these writings to be divine revelations; they looked upon them much as later peoples regard mythological narratives.
But Mike, you are absolutely correct, Jesus did ask “have you not read the scripture” on several occasions. I think he meant that one could extract the spiritual teachings and wisdom of those truer elements that remained in the narratives.
Also, you are correct about what Jesus said about the Law, he was not a reformer of Judaism or its man made Laws; he had respect for the reasonable requirements of the Law as they were the scaffolding of the monotheistic religion which paved the way for his revelation of the Father.
Again, our faith should be in the God whose doings inspired the human writings that preserve the spiritual truths, not the “fetish” of the writings themselves.
Colter
Quote (Mary @ April 01 2013,22:38) Colter, was their such a thing as Christians 1000 AD ?
The Catholic Church is not really into teaching the people the scripture, the less you know the better for them!When the Catholic Church finally released the scriptures bound into a holy bible in 1500 AD, people could read about these Christians! One would only expect to see a split soon after people devoured the manuscripts an gained the power to challenge authority of the Catholic Church among the words written!
Quote (Mary @ April 01 2013,22:38) Colter, was their such a thing as Christians 1000 AD ?
Hi Mary,Yes, there were other Orthodox churches that did not consider themselves subject to Rome. Christianity is broken up into many peaces.
See the Wiki for a rough history of all the splits:
Colter
Quote (t8 @ April 01 2013,14:10) Colter. You belong to one cult within a supermarket of cults.
How do you know you bought the genuine product?
If it doesn't have made by YHWH on it, then it is a fake.
The same way that believers in Jesus “knew.”Colter
Quote (Mary @ April 01 2013,12:02) Hello dearest Colter. “Among the most beloved of places are the mosques.”
?More HolyQuran references an quotes
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
5.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
5.39. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
5.57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).
Hello Kiwi-biwi,The REAL nature of the dispute between the Jews and the Muslims is a dispute between Semitic cousins based on yet another inconsistency in the Hebrew scripture about the “birth right”.
So the story goes, Abram got the nanny (Hagar)pregnant because Sari was supposedly baron. A promise was made that the child Ishmael’s decedents would, by birthright, become the chosen people. But, like a Jersey Shore drama, Sari gets pregnant and has Isaac (a supposed miracle….written by —>his<— descendants in hind site) so then he gets the covenant rites.
Ishmael's peeps aren’t so happy about that and they been dissing each other ever since.
Colter
Yes it's a very nasty family law case colter, almost everyone can be dated back to the family inheritance an estate, Makes me consider wither threw all the pain rejection, can the world today learn an important lesson!
Money an gold is the root of all war.
Quote (Mary @ April 02 2013,00:36) Yes it's a very nasty family law case colter, almost everyone can be dated back to the family inheritance an estate, Makes me consider wither threw all the pain rejection, can the world today learn an important lesson! Money an gold is the root of all war.
This is what the UB says about Abraham and Sarah:“(1023.5) 93:9.8 The Hebrew narratives of Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are far more reliable than those about Abraham, although they also contain many diversions from the facts, alterations made intentionally and unintentionally at the time of the compilation of these records by the Hebrew priests during the Babylonian captivity. Keturah was not a wife of Abraham; like Hagar, she was merely a concubine. All of Abraham’s property went to Isaac, the son of Sarah, the status wife. Abraham was not so old as the records indicate, and his wife was much younger. These ages were deliberately altered in order to provide for the subsequent alleged miraculous birth of Isaac.
(1023.6) 93:9.9 The national ego of the Jews was tremendously depressed by the Babylonian captivity. In their reaction against national inferiority they swung to the other extreme of national and racial egotism, in which they distorted and perverted their traditions with the view of exalting themselves above all races as the chosen people of God; and hence they carefully edited all their records for the purpose of raising Abraham and their other national leaders high up above all other persons, not excepting Melchizedek himself. The Hebrew scribes therefore destroyed every record of these momentous times which they could find, preserving only the narrative of the meeting of Abraham and Melchizedek after the battle of Siddim, which they deemed reflected great honor upon Abraham.” UB
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 01 2013,05:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2013,12:12) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 22 2013,15:09) No Ed, that wasn't “scripture” when Paul said it, he was talking about the OT, and it's just Paul's opinion.
But Jesus said similar things, Colter. He even said that not one letter of the Law and the Prophets will pass away without being fulfilled, right?Isn't this the same Law and Prophets that you say was made up by exiled Jews?
Mikeboll64,…………you are correct about what Jesus said about the Law………..
Okay, so doesn't that mean Jesus himself gave his stamp of approval on what the UB says is the made up stories of exiled old men?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2013,12:55) Quote (Colter @ April 01 2013,05:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2013,12:12) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 22 2013,15:09) No Ed, that wasn't “scripture” when Paul said it, he was talking about the OT, and it's just Paul's opinion.
But Jesus said similar things, Colter. He even said that not one letter of the Law and the Prophets will pass away without being fulfilled, right?Isn't this the same Law and Prophets that you say was made up by exiled Jews?
Mikeboll64,…………you are correct about what Jesus said about the Law………..
Okay, so doesn't that mean Jesus himself gave his stamp of approval on what the UB says is the made up stories of exiled old men?
mikeboll64,That's a very good and logical question.
In short, Jesus was here to do the will of his Father in heaven, not to reform the human imperfections of the authors of scripture. It was not the will of the Father for the Son to crush the faith of the Jews by exposing the imperfections of the priest whom the people trusted or the misunderstood traditions of their past that they depended on so intensely as the promise keepers, for their national identity.
As a teacher Jesus sought to give man something new rather then to take something away from him. Faith is remarkably transformational, when a new truth invades our soul, we let go of older ways. It's like maturing. Jesus understood and respected the evolutionary nature of religion. Evolutionary religion is the boat, revelation is the rudder, and the spirit is the sail's.
Jesus was not here to “reform” Judaism”, he was here to establish the “kingdom of heaven.” He wasn't hear to straighten out the historical inaccuracies of the priest, he was here to fore-fill the faith-expectations of the believer in those imperfect accounts of the Israelite and to bring the Gentile, to bring the entire world.
Jesus did reference the positive aspects of the teachings of the OT books, leaving the lesser truths to die on their own. Have you not noticed that Jesus did not do what the expected Messiah was to do? His kingdom is spiritual, not material Israel. He wasn’t David’s Son, he is The Son of God.
The Love of God is such that he tenderly weans us from false dependencies. At it's core the gospel of Jesus was relinquishing our trust to him, trusting God alone with the trust of an unspoiled child. Not sacrifices, ceremonies and traditions. Nowhere in the gospel did Jesus require that his followers have uncompromising faith in the historical traditions of the Hebrew priest.
Sure, books contain truths and historic accounts of relative value, but they are only right if they lead us to a trust in the Father.
The UB is quite clear to wean us from the temptation to make it a fetish:
92:4.9 5. “The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.”
It is time for us to grow up, stop demanding miracles before we will trust God and to stop the fetishistic tendency of man to make documents of perfection of the writings in time.
I hope I have helped answer that question.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 02 2013,06:07) It was not the will of the Father for the Son to crush the faith of the Jews by exposing the imperfections of the priest whom the people trusted or the misunderstood traditions of their past that they depended on so intensely as the promise keepers, for their national identity.
Colter,I'm sorry, but what you said goes completely against scripture. For one, Jesus DID chastise the priests and Pharisees of his day – going as far as to call them “whitewashed tombs”, right?
And he warned his disciples to NOT do as they do, right?
He constantly corrected and embarrassed them in public, right?
And the clincher? Jesus himself exposed their imperfections by saying if they believed the scriptures they preached, they would know him, because those scriptures are the very ones that testify about him, right? So in that one statement, Jesus accredited the scriptures while exposing the imperfections of the priests, right?
Quote (Colter @ April 02 2013,02:03) Quote (t8 @ April 01 2013,14:10) Colter. You belong to one cult within a supermarket of cults.
How do you know you bought the genuine product?
If it doesn't have made by YHWH on it, then it is a fake.
The same way that believers in Jesus “knew.”Colter
I am guessing they all say that.
But your book is not what the books about Jesus said.
They don't line up like all false revelations do.But yeah, you are free to follow after the doctrine of demons and false teachings.
You are your own person and you control the rudder of your life. Your choice.
I choose Christ Jesus as the way to God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,13:47) Quote (Colter @ April 02 2013,06:07) It was not the will of the Father for the Son to crush the faith of the Jews by exposing the imperfections of the priest whom the people trusted or the misunderstood traditions of their past that they depended on so intensely as the promise keepers, for their national identity.
Colter,I'm sorry, but what you said goes completely against scripture. For one, Jesus DID chastise the priests and Pharisees of his day – going as far as to call them “whitewashed tombs”, right?
And he warned his disciples to NOT do as they do, right?
He constantly corrected and embarrassed them in public, right?
And the clincher? Jesus himself exposed their imperfections by saying if they believed the scriptures they preached, they would know him, because those scriptures are the very ones that testify about him, right? So in that one statement, Jesus accredited the scriptures while exposing the imperfections of the priests, right?
Mike,True, you are correct that Jesus excoriated the Pharisees who were hiding behind the scripture.
I was talking about the OT books, about Judaism's traditions of perpetuating an exaggerated history. Jesus was not here to reform, audit or correct the inaccuracies of the scripture nor to “change one letter of the law”……but we don't practice the Law anymore, doesn't anyone notice that?
?????? Jesus was divinely diplomatic and tactically brilliant in dealing with the cherished barbarity of Moses's primitive laws.
Jesus knew full well that he did not fit the general expectations of the expected Messiah. Christians don't appreciate why the Jews still do not believe in Jesus, they have good reasons based on the scripture. Although Jews don't have a good explanation as to when and why they stopped following the Leviticus Laws?
……if in fact those laws came from God at all. Colter
Quote (t8 @ April 04 2013,18:25) Quote (Colter @ April 02 2013,02:03) Quote (t8 @ April 01 2013,14:10) Colter. You belong to one cult within a supermarket of cults.
How do you know you bought the genuine product?
If it doesn't have made by YHWH on it, then it is a fake.
The same way that believers in Jesus “knew.”Colter
I am guessing they all say that.
But your book is not what the books about Jesus said.
They don't line up like all false revelations do.But yeah, you are free to follow after the doctrine of demons and false teachings.
You are your own person and you control the rudder of your life. Your choice.
I choose Christ Jesus as the way to God.
Let me guess, your not really God, but you did stay at a Motel 6 last night, right?God knows whats in my heart, perhaps he will also consider your judgement of me.
You have a narrow and closed mind as did all those who took the same position against Jesus' liberating gospel.
Colter
155:6.5.While the religion of authority may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. My Father does not require of you as the price of entering the kingdom of heaven that you should force yourself to subscribe to a belief in things which are spiritually repugnant, unholy, and untruthful. It is not required of you that your own sense of mercy, justice, and truth should be outraged by submission to an outworn system of religious forms and ceremonies. The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. And who can judge—perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear? Jesus
Colter
Quote (Colter @ April 04 2013,05:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,13:47) So in that one statement, Jesus accredited the scriptures while exposing the imperfections of the priests, right?
Mike,True, you are correct that Jesus excoriated the Pharisees who were hiding behind the scripture.
You mean: True, you are correct that Jesus excoriated the Pharisees who were hiding behind the scripture………. WHILE ACCREDITING THAT VERY SCRIPTURE they were hiding behind.Quote (Colter @ April 04 2013,05:06) Although Jews don't have a good explanation as to when and why they stopped following the Leviticus Laws
Interesting point.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,16:47) I'm sorry, but what you said goes completely against scripture. For one, Jesus DID chastise the priests and Pharisees of his day – going as far as to call them “whitewashed tombs”, right?
He missed that because he trusts in the revelation of man that comes from man's spirit and not the Revelation of Jesus Christ that came from God.Jesus rebuked the Pharisees not because they kept and taught the law, but because they neglected a more weightier issue and that was the spirit of the law. The law has a spirit or a deeper meaning to it. It is about changing our attitudes.
When it says. “thou shalt not steal”, it is not only saying don't do that, but that if you truly were of God and had love, you wouldn't do it. But the law was made for the sinner and not the righteous.
This is why Jesus said, “do as they say, but don't do as they do”.
Quote (Colter @ April 05 2013,01:39) 155:6.5.While the religion of authority may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. My Father does not require of you as the price of entering the kingdom of heaven that you should force yourself to subscribe to a belief in things which are spiritually repugnant, unholy, and untruthful. It is not required of you that your own sense of mercy, justice, and truth should be outraged by submission to an outworn system of religious forms and ceremonies. The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. And who can judge—perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear? Jesus Colter
So if you are free then, are you not free to choose Christ? And what is the record of Christ? Not the UB.Quote (Colter @ April 04 2013,22:39) 155:6.5.While the religion of authority may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. My Father does not require of you as the price of entering the kingdom of heaven that you should force yourself to subscribe to a belief in things which are spiritually repugnant, unholy, and untruthful. It is not required of you that your own sense of mercy, justice, and truth should be outraged by submission to an outworn system of religious forms and ceremonies. The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. And who can judge—perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear? Jesus Colter
Colter.The point here is not your knowledge,but the source of your knowledge.The Holy bible and the ub are not brothers,they are strangers.
You study and get your knowledge of the ub, and then prostitute your selves by picking scriptures out of the bible,
just as you please,to suit your ub doctrine.Why would you need the bible to clarify certain things, the ub can not do.You discredit the Holy bible and also
use it to answer some questions.I say, follow the Holy bible or follow the ub.
You follow the Mahabaratha,or you follow the qur'an,so to speak; but not both.wakeup.
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