Scriptures that prove jesus is god…….

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

It's time to take this trinity debate to new level.  So far, from what I've seen here, it is a “back and forth” of posting scriptures – some of which aren't even translated correctly.  And we don't ever even get a chance to refute the trinitarian's understanding of their “trinity proof texts” before they are off and running and posting other scriptures without dealing with the rebuttal of the first ones.

Mikeangel was kind enough to list a bunch of “Jesus is God” scriptures in the “worship” thread.  I brought them all over here so we can analyze and discuss them.  I've invited Mark and Keith to join in, but even if no trinitarians visit this thread, I think we can all learn something by delving into these supposed “proof texts”.

There is only ONE rule in this thread.  We will discuss only ONE scripture at a time.  And I will decide when we move on to the next scripture.  We can use other scriptures to prove or disprove that the scripture in question says “Jesus is God”, but ONLY if that scripture is DIRECTLY related to the scripture in question.

For example, “I and the Father are one”.  It is acceptable to use “My hope is that they become one with us” to show that Jesus was NOT saying he is God in the first scripture.

Here's Mark's list – we'll take them in the order he posted them.

God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Saviour.
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Saviour… Jude 1:12

God our Saviour. Titus 2:10

…we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
Jesus is the only Saviour.
…the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

…God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

…the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

…the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
–Acts 4:12

…salvation… is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
–2 Timothy 2:10

…captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
— Heb 2:10

[Jesus]…author of eternal salvation…
— Heb 5:9

God Jesus
God created the universe and earth by Himself.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
nto the Son he saith…Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10

y him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth…all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3

God Jesus
God is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
Jesus is the Word.
…the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…John 1:14

God Jesus
God is the first and the last.

I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus said, “Fear not; I am the first and the last:” Revelation 1:17

God  Jesus
God forgives sins.
[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities… Psalm 103:2-3

“[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?” Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus…said…”Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.” Mark 2:5

God Jesus
God is our redeemer.
[T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.
[T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ…gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14

God Jesus
God is one.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus and God are one.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…All things were made by him…He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not…And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

Jesus saith…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

God has a Son.

[T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7
Jesus is God's Son.

… [Jesus] said also that God was his Father… John 5:18

God  Jesus
God is the Holy One
Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)
Jesus is the Holy One.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

God  Jesus
Only God is worshipped.
… Then saith Jesus unto him… Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
Jesus is worshipped.
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him… Matthew 9:18

And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6

And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

God Jesus
God is Messiah.
…unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder…and his name shall be called… The mighty God, The everlasting Father… Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is Messiah.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26

God Jesus
God is from everlasting.

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlast
ing. Psalms 93:1-2
Messiah Yeshua [Jesus] is from everlasting.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah…out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2

God  Jesus
Only God is glorified.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another… Isaiah 42:8
God glorified Jesus.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

God Jesus
God is 'I am'.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus is 'I am'.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

God heals all diseases.
Bless the LORD…who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2
Jesus heals all diseases.
[Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16

God is the Judge of the whole earth.
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2

[Abraham to God]…Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.
[T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

God has life in Himself.
[T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
Jesus has life in Himself.
so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;

In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

God raises the dead.
[T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.
[T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30-31
I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 10:38-39
The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him.

John 14:9
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Colossians 1:16
For by him [Jesus] were all things created.

Colossians 2:9
For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16
God was made manifest in the flesh.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Revelation 1:17
Fear not; I am the first and the last.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

[mikeboll64]

Mark:

Quote

God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Hi All,

My first thought is that Jesus most definitely HAS changed throughout his life.  He went from being in the form of God, to being a man, to being dead, to being alive on earth, to being raised back to heaven as a spirit being.

And if you look at the context of the passage, the writer is speaking about remembering the Jesus that they were first preached.  He then goes on to warn them not to be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

My take on this, knowing that Jesus HAS changed, is that the writer is saying that the Jesus we preached yesterday is the same Jesus we preach today and he will be the same Jesus forever………….so don't be fooled by those who come preaching a different Jesus.  Say, like the ones who preach that he is God Almighty Himself.  

Any other thoughts?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

No thoughts anybody? Keith? Mark? Dennison?

How about any supporting thoughts? Pierre? Irene? t8?

[mikeangel]

The spirit of God within him did not change…………I may be changing, but the spirit of God I recieved does not…..

Love you Mike, Have a nice day

[Baker]

Hi! The trinity doctrine is a man made doctrine and not of God. It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who first came up with it. He was born of Pagan Parents in Cartridge North Africa in AD 155.
It was Constantine who after three brutal and bloody persecution in AD 313, granted all Christian full freedom to practice their religion.

In AD 321 He issued an edit forbidding work on Sunday, and making it the day of worship.

In AD 324 Constantine established Christianity the official religion of His empire. it will come to be known as the Roman Universal Church.

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.

Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.

Since the trinity is 3in1 and all equal, lets show that even by Jesus own words He said this

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

In the trinity God's Holy Spirit is the third person, which is not correct. If it would be so, then He would be the Father of Jesus, and we know that is not so…

Peace Irene

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2010,12:57)

Mark: Quote God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hi All, My first thought is that Jesus most definitely HAS changed throughout his life.  He went from being in the form of God, to being a man, to being dead, to being alive on earth, to being raised back to heaven as a spirit being. And if you look at the context of the passage, the writer is speaking about remembering the Jesus that they were first preached.  He then goes on to warn them not to be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. My take on this, knowing that Jesus HAS changed, is that the writer is saying that the Jesus we preached yesterday is the same Jesus we preach today and he will be the same Jesus forever………….so don't be fooled by those who come preaching a different Jesus.  Say, like the ones who preach that he is God Almighty Himself.   Any other thoughts? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

New Testament Scriptures usually always have a connection to what was written before, look at…

Psalm 102:25-28 Of old hast thou (YHVH) laid the foundation of the earth(Job.38:4):
and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure(1Cor.1:28):
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them(was Jesus not Changed?),
and they shall be changed: But thou(YHVH) art the same(John 1:2), and thy years shall have no end.
The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

A-men!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeangel]

His spirit did not change. God's sprit in me does not change.Peace

[Ed J]

Hi Mark,

Do you believe the “HolySpirit” is YHVH?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeangel @ Dec. 02 2010,10:35)

His spirit did not change. God's sprit in me does not change.Peace

Hi Mark,

Luv ya too!

So if it is God's Spirit that did not change, and it also doesn't change in you, then would you agree that the combination of these two scriptures don't really say that Jesus is God anymore than they say that YOU'RE God?

If you agree, then we can move on to the next on.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Btw Mark, thanks for coming!  I don't want this to be a big argument or “hate-fest”.  I just want it to be a few Christians digging deep and finding out if these “proof texts” really do prove that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.  If they do – great!  If they don't – great!  At least we'll both know what we're talking about and learn some things about God's word in the process.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Mike
Isa 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another

Jn 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

this is God and the son render glory to his father.

scriptures are truth.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
The Son is the radiance of that glory.  The Son is glorified by being that radiance of the Father's glory.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2010,20:57)

Mark: Quote God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hi All, My first thought is that Jesus most definitely HAS changed throughout his life.  He went from being in the form of God, to being a man, to being dead, to being alive on earth, to being raised back to heaven as a spirit being. And if you look at the context of the passage, the writer is speaking about remembering the Jesus that they were first preached.  He then goes on to warn them not to be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. My take on this, knowing that Jesus HAS changed, is that the writer is saying that the Jesus we preached yesterday is the same Jesus we preach today and he will be the same Jesus forever………….so don't be fooled by those who come preaching a different Jesus.  Say, like the ones who preach that he is God Almighty Himself.   Any other thoughts? peace and love, mike

Mike,
It is His character that doesn't change.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2010,11:22)

Mike Isa 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another

Hi Pierre,

You're missing the whole point of this thread, I think.  We always go back and forth quoting scriptures that say “Jesus IS God” and “Jesus is NOT God”.  Mark was kind enough to put all the “Jesus IS God” scriptures in one post.  I thought instead of going back and forth, we could actually address these scriptures to show him that NOT ONE of them really says that “Jesus is God”.  But I want to do it ONE at a time, please.

His first scripture/point was:

Quote

God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So all we're discussing right now is whether or not Hebrews 13:8 MUST mean that Jesus is God.  

Mark says it speaks of the Spirit of God that was within Jesus – the same Spirit that is also within him.  And if that's the case, then Mark is as much “God” as Jesus is – based ONLY on this scripture, right?

Kathi thinks it refers to Jesus' character.  But Jesus was made perfect BECAUSE OF the suffering he went through, so I don't know if his “character” changed in that process or not.  But at any rate, saying someone has the same character “yesterday, today and forever” is a far cry from saying that person is God Almighty, don't you think?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

So guys, does Hebrews 13:8 unmistakably teach that Jesus is God Almighty?

I vote NO. Mark? Kathi? Pierre? Ed? Irene? What do you guys vote?

peace and love,
mike

[Baker]

Mike!  Jesus is not Almighty God.  In Hebrew 1:8 however says that

Hbr 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.  

Hbr 1:9   Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

God is a title and so is The word of God.(Spoken Word of God.)

Sorry about the misunderstanding….Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2010,18:36)

Pierre, The Son is the radiance of that glory.  The Son is glorified by being that radiance of the Father's glory.

Kathi

“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

No,Kathi;glorification of God is done trough his word of truth;

you see all what the prophets have told trough the spirit of Gods word and trough Christ is now (at the Crusification)to be recognize as the true Son and messiah when he will be resurrected.
all will become truth.no lie.
and Kathi the son is glorified by being true to the truth of his father, your therms are of men and lies.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Mike

Mark says it speaks of the Spirit of God that was within Jesus – the same Spirit that is also within him. And if that's the case, then Mark is as much “God” as Jesus is – based ONLY on this scripture, right?

==========================================================
wen it says in scriptures that someone has the spirit of God it does not mean that God is in him,do you understand that??because if he would then you would be control by the spirit being in you like the demons do,and this is not possible,right

so wen it says the spirit of God is in him it means that all of the will of that person is totally in accord with God and accomplish the will of God,

so if Mark has the spirit of God he should beable to show it by his understanding of scriptures and only comment truth and his behavior in is live being totally in god s truth,if not then he is a liar.and so do not have the spirit of God.

Pierre

[mikeangel]

There are many misconceptions about the identity of the Holy Spirit. Some view the Holy Spirit as a mystical force. Others understand the Holy Spirit as the impersonal power that God makes available to followers of Christ. What does the Bible say about the identity of the Holy Spirit? Simply put, the Bible declares that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also tells us that the Holy Spirit is a divine person, a being with a mind, emotions, and a will.

The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly seen in many Scriptures, including Acts 5:3-4. In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.” It is a clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the characteristics of God. For example, His omnipresence is seen in Psalm 139:7-8, “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.” Then in 1 Corinthians 2:10-11, we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. “But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

We can know that the Holy Spirit is indeed a divine person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows (1 Corinthians 2:10). The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). He makes decisions according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly function as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised He would be (John 14:16, 26, 15:26).

Acts 5:3–4
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”

First, Peter informs him he lied to The holy sprit. The last sentance he told him he lied to God. He died for it, as did his wife.

Psalm 139:7–8
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?

Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;

if I make my bed in the depths,a you are there.

This is how God is present with us. God is in heaven, Jesus is at his right hand, yet he is with us, forever, everywhere we go.

So to answer your question, Yes. Peace-Mark

[mikeangel]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2010,13:23)

Mike Mark says it speaks of the Spirit of God that was within Jesus – the same Spirit that is also within him.  And if that's the case, then Mark is as much “God” as Jesus is – based ONLY on this scripture, right? ========================================================== wen it says in scriptures that someone has the spirit of God it does not mean that God is in him,do you understand that??because if he would then you would be control by the spirit being in you like the demons do,and this is not possible,right so wen it says the spirit of God is in him it means that all of the will of that person is totally in accord with God and accomplish the will of God, so if Mark has the spirit of God he should beable to show it by his understanding of scriptures and only comment truth and his behavior in is live being totally in god s truth,if not then he is a liar.and so do not have the spirit of God. Pierre

Yes,the sprit of God in me is perfect, and pert of God. It is my gift form God for believing in him and his son. I, on the other hand, am not perfect, but the God that is in me is. Peace-Mark

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