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Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 12 2010,06:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,19:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Greetings JA…. “For the dead sleep””For the dead know nothing”…..These statements are pretty clear as to state of existance we as humans assume after we stop breathing…The fact that those who were raised from the dead in fact died again speaks to the authority and the power over death that the almighty has,however,as demonstrated we are first commited to die and after that the resurection…
Hi Ted,
Regarding the dead not knowing anything…I have listened to many NDE's and they typically have many similarities. If they are a victim of an accident or are in the hospital, they describe themselves as leaving their body and looking at the body from the outside of it, then they continue on to see what they describe as the afterlife. So, the body that they look back at, knows nothing. The 'knowing' part of the body leaves the body, it seems. So it would be true to say that the dead know nothing. That body in the casket is not laying there thinking anything, their ability to know things has left their body. That which lies in the casket knows nothing but the inner-person leaves the body and continues on to the afterlife in another dimension. The people in these NDE stories do not consider themselves dead but more alive than ever if their experience is in the 'light' and consider the body which they left as dead and unresponsive until they return into that body.Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,03:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
JA,
Jesus was the first to be 'returned' to the Father and in that way He may have been the firstborn from the dead. Those who died but immediately alive in the spirit may have been in Hades awaiting to be 'returned' to the Father.It does seem that the body will be resurrected at a later time.
Quote (karmarie @ Dec. 12 2010,06:39) Regarding the title of this thread, From what I remember the Early Church followed the Saterday Sabbath, but also had Sunday. One example;
St. Justin Martyr
The First ApologyChapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
I think the Eastern Orthodox still do this. Saterday and Sunday.
Thanks Karmarie,
I had found basically the same thing written by Justin. I hadn't found anything written by him that mentioned if he did something special on Saturday. I know he mentioned worship being done as a body of believers on Sunday.This is good, keep your eye out for other mentions in the other writers. Now we have a topic to put their understanding of the matter as we come across it.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2010,16:33) I had found basically the same thing written by Justin. I hadn't found anything written by him that mentioned if he did something special on Saturday. I know he mentioned worship being done as a body of believers on Sunday.
Hi kathi.OK. Still looking. But first, scripture.
Mark 2:27.
“The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath”Matthew 24:20.
“Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath”Hebrews 4:3
“Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'” And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.” It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience…There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience”Acts 13:42
“The Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.”Acts 17:1-4
“Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas”.Acts 18:4
“And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.”1 Corinthians 11:1
“Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ”.So far that's all I have found, in regards to the Sabbath.
Kathi, I need a break from the Early Church Fathers. I hope you understand, Iv read it all before. Iv followed the Saterday Sabbath, Iv 'investigated' everything. The truth is more simple Kathi. Watch and be carefull where your reading gets you. ONLY stick with what is safe to read, or trust me, you will get confused. Well, with a mind like mine, you will.
Hi Karmarie,
No problem…take your break by all means. The purpose of this topic is to see how early the worship gathering changed from the seventh day of the week to the first day and the thoughts behind it. I would also like to see if they continued to call the seventh day the 'sabbath day' even when worshiping on the first day of the week.Thanks for your caution. I will be careful.
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 14 2010,18:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2010,16:33) I had found basically the same thing written by Justin. I hadn't found anything written by him that mentioned if he did something special on Saturday. I know he mentioned worship being done as a body of believers on Sunday.
Hi kathi.OK. Still looking. But first, scripture.
Mark 2:27.
“The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath”Matthew 24:20.
“Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath”Hebrews 4:3
“Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'” And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.” It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience…There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience”Acts 13:42
“The Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.”Acts 17:1-4
“Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas”.Acts 18:4
“And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.”1 Corinthians 11:1
“Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ”.So far that's all I have found, in regards to the Sabbath.
Karmarie,
Those are good verses about the sabbath. I am trying to get a perspective on the early church and all the persecution and being cast out of the synagogue because of following Christ. People were meeting 'underground' in the catacombs and in houses and not in the synagogues. This is all interesting to me.People get so hung up on there being a problem to worship on the first day of the week as if it were motivated by pagan sun worship and I do not believe the early church met on the first day of the week to appease those who used to worship the sun god. From what I can tell, it was motivated by the day of the resurrection which brought in a new age/new creation. The first creation was completed in six days and then the seventh day was the day of rest from all that work. Since the resurrection, a new creation was ushered in with the sabbath being about trusting in the work of Christ and not in our own works and therefore resting from our works. The new creation provided the real sabbath rest, the spiritual kind. The seventh day sabbath was just a shadow of the spiritual sabbath.
We won't read about Christ attending church because His building of the church didn't begin till after He rose from the dead. We cannot find from Christ's example on earth, how to 'do' church, so we must realize that. Church is a part of the new creation, not the old creation that had a seventh day sabbath. The new creation has a sabbath which we enter by believing in the finished work of Christ.
So, therefore, during the old creation, the seventh day was designated as the sabbath rest. During the new creation, the belief in Christ was designated as the sabbath rest. Either way, there still is a sabbath to observe. The sabbath we observe in the new creation doesn't have to do with a weekly day. Christians gather together weekly not to observe a weekly sabbath but to celebrate Christ as a body of believers, regularly, to edify one another to love and to do good deeds and worship the Father and the Son in the Spirit corporately.
Well, enough for now.
Kathi, I read that somewhere today, about the change from Saturday to Sunday. I think it was here
http://www.bibleprobe.com/sundayworship.htm
I think theres some parts about the Early Church Fathers somewhere there.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2010,14:12) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 12 2010,06:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,19:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Greetings JA…. “For the dead sleep””For the dead know nothing”…..These statements are pretty clear as to state of existance we as humans assume after we stop breathing…The fact that those who were raised from the dead in fact died again speaks to the authority and the power over death that the almighty has,however,as demonstrated we are first commited to die and after that the resurection…
Hi Ted,
Regarding the dead not knowing anything…I have listened to many NDE's and they typically have many similarities. If they are a victim of an accident or are in the hospital, they describe themselves as leaving their body and looking at the body from the outside of it, then they continue on to see what they describe as the afterlife. So, the body that they look back at, knows nothing. The 'knowing' part of the body leaves the body, it seems. So it would be true to say that the dead know nothing. That body in the casket is not laying there thinking anything, their ability to know things has left their body. That which lies in the casket knows nothing but the inner-person leaves the body and continues on to the afterlife in another dimension. The people in these NDE stories do not consider themselves dead but more alive than ever if their experience is in the 'light' and consider the body which they left as dead and unresponsive until they return into that body.
Greetings Kathi……Iam not disputing the fact that the being or the essense is not committed back to the creator…It is from this that the universal church formulated the theory which encompassed what is known to them as a soul….This is a challenging phenomonon….Let me start by simply saying”if we went on in the spirit realm after death”….Why would we need a resurection for salvation???Wow so many different believes. Theo you seem to forget that the Sabbath was and is a sign between the children of Israel and God.
Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Exd 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
It is a perpetual covenant. meaning forever….And they still keep it….
We never were under that Covenant. we are under the New covenant in
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
Paul tels us this
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
What this says that we should all be convinced in what day we want to keep holy. So if you want to keep the sabbath, fine. But if I or others want to keep another day, you should never judge that person.
Peace and love IreneQuote (shimmer @ Dec. 15 2010,03:44) Kathi, I read that somewhere today, about the change from Saturday to Sunday. I think it was here http://www.bibleprobe.com/sundayworship.htm
I think theres some parts about the Early Church Fathers somewhere there.
Thanks Shimmer,
That site has a lot of good quotes. What stood out to me was that Sunday was declared to be a regular rest day which was also a day that the pagan sun worshipers were used to. The early Christians were sensitive to the pagans and did not want to cause them to stumble but wanted them to be more easily brought into Christianity.Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 15 2010,07:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2010,14:12) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 12 2010,06:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,19:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Greetings JA…. “For the dead sleep””For the dead know nothing”…..These statements are pretty clear as to state of existance we as humans assume after we stop breathing…The fact that those who were raised from the dead in fact died again speaks to the authority and the power over death that the almighty has,however,as demonstrated we are first commited to die and after that the resurection…
Hi Ted,
Regarding the dead not knowing anything…I have listened to many NDE's and they typically have many similarities. If they are a victim of an accident or are in the hospital, they describe themselves as leaving their body and looking at the body from the outside of it, then they continue on to see what they describe as the afterlife. So, the body that they look back at, knows nothing. The 'knowing' part of the body leaves the body, it seems. So it would be true to say that the dead know nothing. That body in the casket is not laying there thinking anything, their ability to know things has left their body. That which lies in the casket knows nothing but the inner-person leaves the body and continues on to the afterlife in another dimension. The people in these NDE stories do not consider themselves dead but more alive than ever if their experience is in the 'light' and consider the body which they left as dead and unresponsive until they return into that body.
Greetings Kathi……Iam not disputing the fact that the being or the essense is not committed back to the creator…It is from this that the universal church formulated the theory which encompassed what is known to them as a soul….This is a challenging phenomonon….Let me start by simply saying”if we went on in the spirit realm after death”….Why would we need a resurection for salvation???
Hi Ted,
The body will be resurrected. Does it say anywhere that the spirit will be resurrected?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2010,09:47) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 15 2010,03:44) Kathi, I read that somewhere today, about the change from Saturday to Sunday. I think it was here http://www.bibleprobe.com/sundayworship.htm
I think theres some parts about the Early Church Fathers somewhere there.
Thanks Shimmer,
That site has a lot of good quotes. What stood out to me was that Sunday was declared to be a regular rest day which was also a day that the pagan sun worshipers were used to. The early Christians were sensitive to the pagans and did not want to cause them to stumble but wanted them to be more easily brought into Christianity.
Hi Kathi.The sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the sabbath. We all need a day's rest. Some people never rest. (My ex was one). I read somewhere that the heartbeat slows down every seventh day. I don't know how true that is.
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 16 2010,08:00) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2010,09:47) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 15 2010,03:44) Kathi, I read that somewhere today, about the change from Saturday to Sunday. I think it was here http://www.bibleprobe.com/sundayworship.htm
I think theres some parts about the Early Church Fathers somewhere there.
Thanks Shimmer,
That site has a lot of good quotes. What stood out to me was that Sunday was declared to be a regular rest day which was also a day that the pagan sun worshipers were used to. The early Christians were sensitive to the pagans and did not want to cause them to stumble but wanted them to be more easily brought into Christianity.
Hi Kathi.The sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the sabbath. We all need a day's rest. Some people never rest. (My ex was one). I read somewhere that the heartbeat slows down every seventh day. I don't know how true that is.
shimmer, i don't agree with you that the Sabbath only is the day we should rest. paul says thatRom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
To deny this is going against Scriptures…. We need to understand that the Sabbath was
Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Iit was a Covenant that God made with the children of Israel, and not with us gentiles. If i want to keep any day it is according to Scripture. However if you want to keep the Sabbath it is up to you, as long as you don't impose it on anyone else or judge those who do not keep it…
Peace and love IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2010,07:49) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 15 2010,07:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2010,14:12) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 12 2010,06:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,19:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Greetings JA…. “For the dead sleep””For the dead know nothing”…..These statements are pretty clear as to state of existance we as humans assume after we stop breathing…The fact that those who were raised from the dead in fact died again speaks to the authority and the power over death that the almighty has,however,as demonstrated we are first commited to die and after that the resurection…
Hi Ted,
Regarding the dead not knowing anything…I have listened to many NDE's and they typically have many similarities. If they are a victim of an accident or are in the hospital, they describe themselves as leaving their body and looking at the body from the outside of it, then they continue on to see what they describe as the afterlife. So, the body that they look back at, knows nothing. The 'knowing' part of the body leaves the body, it seems. So it would be true to say that the dead know nothing. That body in the casket is not laying there thinking anything, their ability to know things has left their body. That which lies in the casket knows nothing but the inner-person leaves the body and continues on to the afterlife in another dimension. The people in these NDE stories do not consider themselves dead but more alive than ever if their experience is in the 'light' and consider the body which they left as dead and unresponsive until they return into that body.
Greetings Kathi……Iam not disputing the fact that the being or the essense is not committed back to the creator…It is from this that the universal church formulated the theory which encompassed what is known to them as a soul….This is a challenging phenomonon….Let me start by simply saying”if we went on in the spirit realm after death”….Why would we need a resurection for salvation???
Hi Ted,
The body will be resurrected. Does it say anywhere that the spirit will be resurrected?
Kathi….At the resurection we will inherit our glorified body which will be spirit and we will have victory over death…Quote (Baker @ Dec. 16 2010,03:11) Wow so many different believes. Theo you seem to forget that the Sabbath was and is a sign between the children of Israel and God. Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Exd 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
It is a perpetual covenant. meaning forever….And they still keep it….
We never were under that Covenant. we are under the New covenant in
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
Paul tels us this
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
What this says that we should all be convinced in what day we want to keep holy. So if you want to keep the sabbath, fine. But if I or others want to keep another day, you should never judge that person.
Peace and love Irene
Greetings Georg…..It is not my place to judge and there is no judgement intended….When I speak of sunday worship my point is the origin as well as the day ( Sun Day )….It has always been the first day of the week for the sake of those who worshipped the God of the sun….All of the scripture you offered as a retort for what you consider my judging of others says nothing about worship on Sun Day,however, it does support my belief that the last day of the week was the same day that eternal rested on and made it holy and this day would be saturday…Sabath worship is not the exclusive property of the tribe of Judah…this day of rest was given to all as a sign and is an intricate part of Gods plan for all of us…Sabath (Sabado….rest )Remember to keep his Sabath holy….( not ours….sunday )….Georg this is what I hold to be true…If Iam wrong ,I stand corrected,but you have not proven your assertion….IMOQuote (theodorej @ Dec. 16 2010,11:14) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 16 2010,03:11) Wow so many different believes. Theo you seem to forget that the Sabbath was and is a sign between the children of Israel and God. Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Exd 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
It is a perpetual covenant. meaning forever….And they still keep it….
We never were under that Covenant. we are under the New covenant in
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
Paul tels us this
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
What this says that we should all be convinced in what day we want to keep holy. So if you want to keep the sabbath, fine. But if I or others want to keep another day, you should never judge that person.
Peace and love Irene
Greetings Georg…..It is not my place to judge and there is no judgement intended….When I speak of sunday worship my point is the origin as well as the day ( Sun Day )….It has always been the first day of the week for the sake of those who worshipped the God of the sun….All of the scripture you offered as a retort for what you consider my judging of others says nothing about worship on Sun Day,however, it does support my belief that the last day of the week was the same day that eternal rested on and made it holy and this day would be saturday…Sabath worship is not the exclusive property of the tribe of Judah…this day of rest was given to all as a sign and is an intricate part of Gods plan for all of us…Sabath (Sabado….rest )Remember to keep his Sabath holy….( not ours….sunday )….Georg this is what I hold to be true…If Iam wrong ,I stand corrected,but you have not proven your assertion….IMO
First of all it is not Georg, but Irene who made the last post to you.
now to the Sabbath.
It is part of the Old Covenant that God made with Israel inExd 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Now to the New in
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
Jesus also gave us the great Commandment in
Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
As you can see the Sabbath is not part of that new covenant…and rightfully so, because it is a sign between God and the children of Israel…..Sorry but that is what it says….
I do know about SUNDAY WORSHIP. I do not keep either Sunday or the Sabbath…..To me I keep everyday to to the LORD. Why, because His Holy Spirit dwells in me and that makes us a holy people…..I can rest whenever I want to, it is not a commandment to us, since we are in the new covenant….Peace and love Irene
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 16 2010,17:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2010,07:49) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 15 2010,07:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2010,14:12) Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 12 2010,06:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 12 2010,19:16) Kathi, TheodorJ, As regarding the dead.
In those times it was believed that once a person was dead in the body, the flesh, they were dead forever.
The concept of the dead rising to an everlasting life was inconceivable.
Persons could be revived from the dead, but still died later.
Was it Elijah who raised up the son of widow, and healed the sick, in the same fashion as Jesus was later to do. Hence, in the time of Jesus they said of Jesus performing miracles, 'is he another Elijah', and, 'is he Elijah come back from the dead?'
Of course, like Lazarus in Jesus' time, those raised up still went on to die later…the 'everlasting rising' was not yet, but to come.
Kathi, you are right that the patriachs are not 'dead in the Spirit'.
Dead in the flesh…but alive in the Spirit …but not the 'glorified Spirit man' that Jesus was later to become, perfected in the flesh and called 'Begotten Son of God with power' – the first fruit of the resurrection of which many, 144,000 more there will be, and he was made High Priest in the Temple of God.So, although alive in the Spirit, the patriachs are not yet resurrected else Jesus could not then be 'preEminent', could not have been the 'firstfruit'.
Greetings JA…. “For the dead sleep””For the dead know nothing”…..These statements are pretty clear as to state of existance we as humans assume after we stop breathing…The fact that those who were raised from the dead in fact died again speaks to the authority and the power over death that the almighty has,however,as demonstrated we are first commited to die and after that the resurection…
Hi Ted,
Regarding the dead not knowing anything…I have listened to many NDE's and they typically have many similarities. If they are a victim of an accident or are in the hospital, they describe themselves as leaving their body and looking at the body from the outside of it, then they continue on to see what they describe as the afterlife. So, the body that they look back at, knows nothing. The 'knowing' part of the body leaves the body, it seems. So it would be true to say that the dead know nothing. That body in the casket is not laying there thinking anything, their ability to know things has left their body. That which lies in the casket knows nothing but the inner-person leaves the body and continues on to the afterlife in another dimension. The people in these NDE stories do not consider themselves dead but more alive than ever if their experience is in the 'light' and consider the body which they left as dead and unresponsive until they return into that body.
Greetings Kathi……Iam not disputing the fact that the being or the essense is not committed back to the creator…It is from this that the universal church formulated the theory which encompassed what is known to them as a soul….This is a challenging phenomonon….Let me start by simply saying”if we went on in the spirit realm after death”….Why would we need a resurection for salvation???
Hi Ted,
The body will be resurrected. Does it say anywhere that the spirit will be resurrected?
Kathi….At the resurection we will inherit our glorified body which will be spirit and we will have victory over death…
theodso the second resurrection is for the birds
?Quote (Baker @ Dec. 16 2010,11:53) shimmer, i don't agree with you that the Sabbath only is the day we should rest. paul says that Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
To deny this is going against Scriptures…. We need to understand that the Sabbath was
Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Iit was a Covenant that God made with the children of Israel, and not with us gentiles. If i want to keep any day it is according to Scripture. However if you want to keep the Sabbath it is up to you, as long as you don't impose it on anyone else or judge those who do not keep it…
Peace and love Irene
I agree with that Irene.Your right I think.
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