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Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2010,19:50) Kangaroo Jack, So you hypothosize that Romans 16:20 is to be interpreted litteral and not figuratively even though a litteral interpretation brings it in conflict with the teaching that Satan will be bound for a thousand years among others.
Have you tested your hypothosis against scripture?
I have my doubts as many scriptures disprove it.
The King of demons is still free and outside the lake of fire.
In hearing the passage it sounds to me as if Paul is speaking to the Romans about being fully mature in the Anointed One. Even then it was most likely addressed to the church in general and not anyone in particular. It was quite a compliment.
Hi Kerwin,
Yes I have tested my conclusions against scripture. Revelation 20 says that the “ancient serpent” was bound. The “ancient serpent” is identified as the “devil and satan”.Therefore, satan was bound when the serpent was cursed in the garden. The word “ancient” clearly indicates that it was a serpent of past history that was bound. So this cannot refer to a future event.
The word “chilias” is plural and may also be translated “thousands”. I believe it is saying that satan was bound for the thousands of years of the old covenant period. Note that there is no record of satanic activity or demon possession in the old covenant period. This speaks loudly to satan's binding in history past!
Satan was then loosed for that “little season” between Christ's first and second comings. It is during this period we see demon possession and all sorts of havoc wrought by satan. After Christ returned in ad70 satan was judged and cast into the lake of fire.
Kangaroo Jack
To All………An adversarial (spirit) intellect in man takes the form of a snake it is sneaky and subtle works in secret way so this
(SPIRIT) is detected as a snake, that is a metaphor an analogy and is not literial. We are told to be as wise as a snake , but harmless as a dove, when this wisdom in man is driven by (EVIL) desires, it becomes an adversary or Satan.peace and love to you all…………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2010,07:06) Hi KJ,
The devil was a liar from the beginning.
How does this relate to your odd doctrine?
Nick,Does it not plainly say that it was the ANCIENT serpent that is bound? The word “ancient” clearly indicates that it is the serpent/satan of history past who is in view. Therefore, your doctrine that satan's binding is in the future is the “odd” doctrine.
KJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2010,07:23) Hi KJ,
The fact he is called serpent of old does not make him no longer present.
Think again.
Nick,Are you really saying that the actual snake that was instrumental in deceiving Eve is still present? Tell me what zoo the serpent is in so I can go see for myself.
The binding of satan was connected with the “ancient” serpent.
KJ
Hi KJ,
You still struggle with the scriptural vessel concept?[2Tim2]
Scripture calls him the serpent of old and that should be good enough for you.
Your thin and weak theologies separate you even from your fellow trinity believers on many issues.Kangaroo Jack,
Animals communicate we just cannot understand them. Scientist have already confirmed that and translated some of their communications. Adam and Eve may well have been more in touch with nature.
Here is a little piece about snake communications.
So according to you Satan was bound when he tempted David to take a Census of the people and he was also bound when he tested Job. That is not what I observed.
Kerwin said:
Quote So according to you Satan was bound when he tempted David to take a Census of the people and he was also bound when he tested Job.
Hi Kerwin,The narratives to which you refer contain the word “sawtawn” which simply means “accuser.” In the case of David it says that “An accuser [that] stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.” According to the narrative in 2 Samuel it was YHWH who was against Israel and moved David to take the census.
1 Again the anger of YHWH was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
Therefore, the “accuser” in the Chronicles narrative is YHWH according to Samuel's narrative.
The word “sawtawn” should have been translated “accuser” in Job also. The accuser who tested Job was a human adversary.
Satan (the ancient serpent) was bound throughout the entire old testament period (the thousands of years). He was loosed for the “little season” between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged at the cross and then cast into the lake of fire in or around ad70.
Man is SOLELY responsible for ALL mischief!
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:34) Hi KJ,
So you say.
But you would in defence of your dogmas wouldn't you.
Nick,Please make some attempt to disprove me. Nick's canned replies are an annoyance.
KJ
Kangaroo Jack,
You are correct that Satan is the accuser of our brothers who accuses them night and day before God. If he has done what John states in Revelations 12:9-10 then he is hardly in the lake of fire. In fact he in a like manner accused Job in the book of that is why he tempted David to take a census. Why 1 Chronicles also declares God did it is because Satan could not have done anything if God had not decided to remove his protection from David just like he did with Job. In Zacharias 3:1 we are given an example how Satan accuses our brothers.
It is interesting how you believe a human oppressor was traveling with the angels and had the ability to strike Satan with an illness as well as sick. This “human” can also cause the fire of God to fall from the sky, sick the Sabeans and Chaldeans on Job’s Possessions and cause a mighty wind to collapse a house on his children. That is a very interesting though doubtful hypothesis.
I do not argue that man is not responsible for his own mischief?
Instead it is clear that Satan is responsible for his own mischief and not that of mankind.
Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2010,15:24) Kangaroo Jack, You are correct that Satan is the accuser of our brothers who accuses them night and day before God. If he has done what John states in Revelations 12:9-10 then he is hardly in the lake of fire. In fact he in a like manner accused Job in the book of that is why he tempted David to take a census. Why 1 Chronicles also declares God did it is because Satan could not have done anything if God had not decided to remove his protection from David just like he did with Job. In Zacharias 3:1 we are given an example how Satan accuses our brothers.
It is interesting how you believe a human oppressor was traveling with the angels and had the ability to strike Satan with an illness as well as sick. This “human” can also cause the fire of God to fall from the sky, sick the Sabeans and Chaldeans on Job’s Possessions and cause a mighty wind to collapse a house on his children. That is a very interesting though doubtful hypothesis.
I do not argue that man is not responsible for his own mischief?
Instead it is clear that Satan is responsible for his own mischief and not that of mankind.
Kerwin,The accuser of the brethren has been cast into the lake of fire. Job's accuser was a human. Note that he came to present himself with the sons of God (Seth's sons). So I do not believe that a human was accuser was traveling with angels because the sons of God were not angels. Hebrews 1 says, “To which of the angels did He ever say, “You are my son.' ” Angels were never called the sons of God in the scripture.
Kerwin:
Quote This “human” can also cause the fire of God to fall from the sky, sick the Sabeans and Chaldeans on Job’s Possessions and cause a mighty wind to collapse a house on his children.
He did it according to the power of God.Kerwin:
Quote In fact he in a like manner accused Job in the book of that is why he tempted David to take a census. Why 1 Chronicles also declares God did it is because Satan could not have done anything if God had not decided to remove his protection from David just like he did with Job.
Your reasoning is circular. You assume that “sawtawn” is a reference to satan. The general meaning of the word is simply “accuser.” The Chronicles account CLEARLY says that it was YHWH who was AGAINST Israel and who MOVED David to take the census.YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT YHWH WORKS IN LEAGUE WITH SATAN.
Kerwin:
Quote In Zacharias 3:1 we are given an example how Satan accuses our brothers.
First, this was a vision and not an actual event! Second, the “sawtawn” or “accuser” in the vision need only be a human. In the vision Joshua was standing before the Messenger of Jehovah and a human accuser was standing at Joshua's right hand accusing Joshua of his unworthiness for the priesthood.Again, Revelation 20 says that it was the “ANCIENT” serpent that was bound. This necessarily refers to a figure from history, i.e., the serpent/satan in the garden.
I repeat: You have suggested that YHWH works in league with satan. This is pagan superstition and must be rejected at once.
Kangaroo Jack
Kangaroo Jack,
Do you know that Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word and means the Lord saves. Why do you think the people of that time chose to translate the meaning of the name from one language to another instead of using Jesus' given name which was most likely Joshua? To me it seems clear in that they believe the name spoke of a quality of the person.
So following that idea it is clear that calling Satan the accuser speaks of a quality of his person just like calling both angels and the decedents of Seth children of God.
Since the Hebrews had the audacity to use the same phrase to describe both a human and a angel then how do you know who they are speaking about. The context of the scripture that mentions the name is meant to give the answer. In Genesis for instance both the generalities of the sons of Seth and the sons of Cain are mentioned and angels are not mentioned except the guards on the Garden of Eden. In Job on the other hand Satan if attributed with powers that would make him a wizard or a profit among humans and used those powers to oppress Job.
The sons of God are not mentioned except to state they presented themselves to God. That seems not to tell us much but since the account seems to be occurring in the seventh heaven where God's throne is stated to be it would appear to make in unlikely the author is speaking of human beings.
I agree that angels were not called Son because Jesus is the one and only Son of God. He is the Prince to God's King. You can even call him God's Heir. I use heir in the sense that God appointed Jesus as King of everything in heaven and on earth and not to imply that God will be succeeded by Jesus.
As for stating I claimed Satan and God worked in league you simply misunderstand. What I mean is that Satan cannot perform an action but that God allows him to do so. The motives of Satan and God for the same action are different and motives are what counts to God. Just like he did in Job Satan must petition God to perform an action before God will allow him to do so. God after all is King and he gave Jesus the authority to command demons, Mark 1:27.
Hi KW,
The sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of earth were laid.[Jb38]
Also seen Ps 89, Jb 1-2, Gen6Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2010,03:42) Hi KW,
The sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of earth were laid.[Jb38]
Also seen Ps 89, Jb 1-2, Gen6
Good point about Job 38.I plan to to look up Genesis 6 and Psalms 89 when I have time and remember to, God willing.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi KW,
If membership in the family of God[eph3] is decided by sharing in God's Spirit [Rom8] then we know many angels have brought God's Spirit to earth when ministering His words and powers.They have access to the tree of life
Kerwin said:
Quote As for stating I claimed Satan and God worked in league you simply misunderstand. What I mean is that Satan cannot perform an action but that God allows him to do so.
Hi Kerwin,
The Chronicles account says that “an accuser stood up AGAINST Israel and MOVED David to number Israel.” The account in Samuel says that the anger of YHWH was AGAINST Israel, and He MOVED David to take the census.Chronicles: An accuser was AGINST Israel and MOVED David to take the census.
Samuel: YHWH's anger was AGAINST Israel and He MOVED David to take the census.
The “accuser” therefore was YHWH Himself. The “ancient” serpent/satan had been bound. There was no activity of the devil himself from the time of the serpent's curse in the garden until the “little season” when he was loosed. The “little season” was the period of time between christ's first and second comings. Satan was judged at the cross and then cast into the lake of fire in or areound ad70.
Kangaroo Jack
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