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What Does “Devoured” Mean?
2 Kings 1:12 “And fire of God came down from heaven and con-sumed [wattō) kal4/katéphagen] him and his fifty.”
kai. kate,bh pu/r evk tou/ ouvranou/ kai. kate,fagen auvto.n
Rev 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured [katéphagen] them.”
kai. kate,bh pu/r evk tou/ ouvranou/ kai. kate,fagen auvtou,j
If in Elijah’s day God literally kills the wicked with fire from heaven, and if John then quotes this phrase exactly to indicate what he has seen in vision about the fate of the wicked, how can we say they will not be devoured to death?
Isa 24:6 “Therefore the curse has devoured [édetai, eaten] the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”
Isa 26:11 “. . . Yes, the fire of Your enemies [hupenantíous] shall de-vour [édetai, eat] them.”
Heb 10:27 “. . . but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour [esthíein, eat up]the adversaries [hu-penantíous].”
What has been devoured or eaten up exists no longer.
What has been devoured by fire can no longer be alive.
Esthiō and edō usually refer to eating food, and they are often used metaphorically, but they are not metaphors of something never eaten but remaining eternally uneaten, though eternally chewed.
God” and the “eternal Spirit” because of God’s “eternal purpose.”
It is interesting that when it refers to God, “eternal” has no implied beginning or end, but “eternal life” begins when we begin sharing in God’s own eternality, so for us it is eternal in only one direction.
Similarly, the “eternal covenant” was not always in place.
Sometimes an “eternal” event has a clear beginning and end, with only the effect being eternal.
From ākal, to “eat up” or “consume.”
What Does “Perish” or “Destroyed” Mean?
Matt 22:7 “‘But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed [apōlesen] those murderers, and burned up their city.’”
Jesus is not revealing that the murderers were tortured forever, but that they were killed. This is the primary meaning of the word.
Matt 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish [apolountai] by the sword.’”
“Perish” here means death, not some never ending flaying with a sword throughout eternity.
Luke 11:51 “‘from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished [apoloménou] between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.’”
Was Zechariah still perishing in Jesus’ day, or had he completed the process implied by the word and perished, as the text says?
Luke 13:3, 5 “‘I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish [apoleísthe].’”
If the process of perishing cannot be completed, then Jesus is wrong about this.
John 3:16 “‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish [apólētai] but have everlasting life.’”
If those who believe do not perish, then those who do not believe logically must perish. But if the wicked suffer everlasting torment in Hell, then they don’t perish, and they also receive everlasting life. Thus, both the righteous and the wicked receive everlasting life, the difference is only in the nature of that life. If this were so, then Jesus would be wrong here.
2 Pet 3:6 “by which the world that then existed perished [apōleto], being flooded with water.”
That world died, along with the people in it, except for Noah and family.
2 Pet 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish [apolésthai] but that all should come to repentance.”
Those do not repent perish. If they cannot die, they cannot perish.
Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death [thanatos], but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
The wages are not eternal suffering, but death. If we are not Humpty Dumpty, then death means death, not life.
Luke 17:29 “‘but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [apōlesen] them all.’”
Matt 10:29 “‘And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy [apolésai] both soul and body in hell.’”
How Long Does “Stubble” Burn?
Exod 15:7 [Against Egypt] “‘You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.’”
Obadiah 16, 18 [Against Edom] “‘And they shall be as though they had never been. . . . The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Jo-seph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; they [Jacob and Joseph] shall kindle them and devour them, and no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,’ for the LORD has spoken.”
This is metaphorical, but it points to a process leading to swift and certain death. It points not to a never ending process, but to a process that will reach a completion.
Isa 47:14 [Against Babylon] “‘Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them.’”
Experience shows us that stubble does not burn forever, but once burned, it cannot be restored, so the effect is permanent. The usage here is metaphorical.
Nahum 1:9–10 [Day of the Lord] “Affliction will not rise up a second time. For while tangled like thorns, and while drunken like drunkards, they shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.”
Whether metaphorical or literal, the fire burns quickly.
Note that the Old Testament prophets do not distinguish, in their “Day of the Lord” language, between the death of the wicked at Christ’s coming, as seen in Revelation, and the punishment of the wicked in Rev 20.
They know only the latter, and they see the burning as swift, with the effect permanent.
What Are “Ashes”?
Mal 4:1, 3 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. . . . You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ Says the LORD of hosts.”
If the wicked burn in eternal conscious torment for all time, they cannot be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous at any time, much less “on the day” their burning begins.
Even if the language is metaphorical, the metaphor points to death, not to eternal life apart from God.
Ezek. 28:18–19 “‘By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; it has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have become terrified and you will cease to be forever.’”
Some think this is speaking covertly of Satan.
Whoever it may be speaking of, to “cease to be forever” cannot mean to be forever, even metaphorically.
One cannot be “ashes” until one has “ceased to be.”
Ashes, formed during combustion, are what is left after something has been burned up.
What Does “Slay” Mean?
Isa 65:15 [Day of the Lord] “‘For the Lord GOD will slay you.’”
Isa 66:15–16 [Day of the Lord] “‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many.’”
Isa 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’”
One is not slain until one is no longer alive.
If the wicked have been slain by the fire of God, they cannot still be alive.
They are corpses.
To say that “slain” here does not really mean “slain” but “not slain” is again to imitate Humpty Dumpty.
What Does “End” Mean?
Zeph 1:18 [Day of the Lord] “‘Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance [NIV, “a sudden end”] of all those who dwell in the land.’”
Matt 13:40 “‘As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.’”
There can be no “sudden end” of people who suffer eternal conscious torment for all eternity.
Either the doctrine is wrong, or the Bible is wrong.
CT……..Jesus said if thy eye offend (preventing) you, cast if from you, for better it is to enter into life with one eye then have two and cast into the fire , where the (worm) dies not and the fire is not quenched. And he went on with the hand and the leg and ended with the same saying “where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.
This is metaphorically speaking not literial language…………….I will paraphrase it as i understand it. If your eye (that part of how you see things) is Preventing you from entering into the kingdom of GOD cast (get rid of ) it from you, because it is better you suffer the lose of that then be cast into the (FIRE) intense judgments of GOD , where as long as that remains in your life the Judgements will not be stopped (quenched) . Jesus was simply Showing us whatever (offends) prevents us, we need to cast it from us our we will experience intense judgments and that judgement will not cease as long as that evil (worm) exists.
This is metaphoric language. Not literial. IMO
As far as parish goes, when a man dies scriptures says His thoughts (PARISH) if your thoughts parish you parish to. We remain that way until we are resurrected by GOD back to life , by him giving us new bodies and adding spirit back into it. Until then, when we die we will be in a perished state, and if GOD left us in that state we would parish for ever it would be as if we never existed. IMO
Sodom and Gomorrah………Will recieve more mercy in the Judgment them the Pharisees at the time of Christ scripture says. We are also told that it is appointed unto man to (Once) die and after that the Judgment, equating Judgment as eternal death is a far stretch because Judgment is exactly what everyone needs to see the errors of there ways, Judgment of GOD is the best thing that can happen to anyone , it enables us to correct our thinking and Change our Behaviors. While people can and have been turned to ashes under other peoples feet, does not mean they are eternally destroyed maybe in that flesh state but there is a resurrection of the dead. , and there is opportunity for repentance after the resurrection or how could Sodom and Gomorrah recieve mercy. Also Jesus even told the Pharisees that they would be (LAST) to (GO) into the KINGDOM OF GOD, he did not even rule them out. There is Hope FOR ALL. IMO
gene
Hi Jack
For lack of time I am only going to deal with the points that you didn’t address…
You still haven't addressed the points of 2 Peter 3:10-13, saying the “elements will melt with fervent heat”, he uses this term a couple of times, and look closely at the Greek Jack for context demands it is a literal melting of the heavens and the earth.
What about Hebrews 1:11, 12, has the heavens and the earth changed, have they been folded up like a garment?
Also, can you provide any historical proof by any of the Forefathers or any early writings that Jesus has already physically returned to the earth and fulfilled Acts 1:10, 11 and Zech 14:1-9
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 27 2009,10:35) 1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.Is the context not about Christ's first coming?
thinker
As far as your quote above, as you know prophesy is not always fulfilled chronologically.But even if it is in this case the following has not come to pass yet…
Isa 11: 6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.Is the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea?
Jack this is the millennial reign!
There is nothing to indicate that the context of Isa 11 necessarily was fulfilled in 30 – 60 years.
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 29 2009,04:17) CT……..Jesus said if thy eye offend (preventing) you, cast if from you, for better it is to enter into life with one eye then have two and cast into the fire , where the (worm) dies not and the fire is not quenched. And he went on with the hand and the leg and ended with the same saying “where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. This is metaphorically speaking not literial language…………….I will paraphrase it as i understand it. If your eye (that part of how you see things) is Preventing you from entering into the kingdom of GOD cast (get rid of ) it from you, because it is better you suffer the lose of that then be cast into the (FIRE) intense judgments of GOD , where as long as that remains in your life the Judgements will not be stopped (quenched) . Jesus was simply Showing us whatever (offends) prevents us, we need to cast it from us our we will experience intense judgments and that judgement will not cease as long as that evil (worm) exists.
This is metaphoric language. Not literial. IMO
As far as parish goes, when a man dies scriptures says His thoughts (PARISH) if your thoughts parish you parish to. We remain that way until we are resurrected by GOD back to life , by him giving us new bodies and adding spirit back into it. Until then, when we die we will be in a perished state, and if GOD left us in that state we would parish for ever it would be as if we never existed. IMO
Sodom and Gomorrah………Will recieve more mercy in the Judgment them the Pharisees at the time of Christ scripture says. We are also told that it is appointed unto man to (Once) die and after that the Judgment, equating Judgment as eternal death is a far stretch because Judgment is exactly what everyone needs to see the errors of there ways, Judgment of GOD is the best thing that can happen to anyone , it enables us to correct our thinking and Change our Behaviors. While people can and have been turned to ashes under other peoples feet, does not mean they are eternally destroyed maybe in that flesh state but there is a resurrection of the dead. , and there is opportunity for repentance after the resurrection or how could Sodom and Gomorrah recieve mercy. Also Jesus even told the Pharisees that they would be (LAST) to (GO) into the KINGDOM OF GOD, he did not even rule them out. There is Hope FOR ALL. IMO
gene
Hi Gene:When Jesus talks of plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand, he is speaking of those in the body of Christ. If any part of your body causes you to sin, cut it off. One cannot be a partaker of their sin or else one will also end up in the lake of fire.
A fire that is not quenched and a worm does not die means that the Lord will not quench the fire or stop the worm as it destroys, but the fire will burn and the worm will destroy until all of substance is burned up. It will be completely destroyed.
Those in the OT who are not saved have already been judged. They have perished.
Sodom and Ghomorrah will not be raised again to receive additional judgment. That is not what Jesus meant by stating that judgment would be less severe on Sodom. He was indicating that judgment would be more severe on those who had seen him and the miracles that God had done through him than for those in the world who had not seen this.
Quote Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire The foregoing scripture states that Sodom and Ghomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.
Quote Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,13:48) Hi 94,
So all men will not be raised to face judgement?
Heb 9.27 disagrees
Hi Nick:Adam and Eve died in the day that they ate of the knowledge of good and evil in disobedience to God's commandments, this was a spiritual death, and judgement followed. All of those after him partook of the same judgement. Those in the days of Noah were judged by the flood. Pharaoh was judged by God as the waters covered over him and his army as they pursued the children of Israel into the Red Sea. Those in the land of Canaan were judged by God through the nation of Israel as they dispelled them from the land. The nation of Israel who were under the law were judged by the law. Those who were striving to obey the commandments of God under the OT are a part of the body of Christ and are not guilty.
In the NT, the gospel is preached to all of those who are dead, that is spiritually dead, and judgment will follow. Those who come to God through the Lord Jesus, will be judged not guilty, and those who die spiritually separated from God will be judged according to the works that they have done in the body.
And so, it is appointed unto man once to die (spiritually), and after this the judgment.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene @ Oct. 28 2009,09:17) CT……..Jesus said if thy eye offend (preventing) you, cast if from you, for better it is to enter into life with one eye then have two and cast into the fire , where the (worm) dies not and the fire is not quenched. And he went on with the hand and the leg and ended with the same saying “where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. This is metaphorically speaking not literial language…………….I will paraphrase it as i understand it. If your eye (that part of how you see things) is Preventing you from entering into the kingdom of GOD cast (get rid of ) it from you, because it is better you suffer the lose of that then be cast into the (FIRE) intense judgments of GOD , where as long as that remains in your life the Judgements will not be stopped (quenched) . Jesus was simply Showing us whatever (offends) prevents us, we need to cast it from us our we will experience intense judgments and that judgement will not cease as long as that evil (worm) exists.
This is metaphoric language. Not literial. IMO
As far as parish goes, when a man dies scriptures says His thoughts (PARISH) if your thoughts parish you parish to. We remain that way until we are resurrected by GOD back to life , by him giving us new bodies and adding spirit back into it. Until then, when we die we will be in a perished state, and if GOD left us in that state we would parish for ever it would be as if we never existed. IMO
Sodom and Gomorrah………Will recieve more mercy in the Judgment them the Pharisees at the time of Christ scripture says. We are also told that it is appointed unto man to (Once) die and after that the Judgment, equating Judgment as eternal death is a far stretch because Judgment is exactly what everyone needs to see the errors of there ways, Judgment of GOD is the best thing that can happen to anyone , it enables us to correct our thinking and Change our Behaviors. While people can and have been turned to ashes under other peoples feet, does not mean they are eternally destroyed maybe in that flesh state but there is a resurrection of the dead. , and there is opportunity for repentance after the resurrection or how could Sodom and Gomorrah recieve mercy. Also Jesus even told the Pharisees that they would be (LAST) to (GO) into the KINGDOM OF GOD, he did not even rule them out. There is Hope FOR ALL. IMO
gene
I agreed with every statement, except I believe after the resurrection of the unjust, there is NO CHANCE of repentance, it is judgement. The only chance for repentence is prior to the first death. After the first death for the un-repentant is the second death.Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,18:09) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 29 2009,04:17) CT……..Jesus said if thy eye offend (preventing) you, cast if from you, for better it is to enter into life with one eye then have two and cast into the fire , where the (worm) dies not and the fire is not quenched. And he went on with the hand and the leg and ended with the same saying “where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. This is metaphorically speaking not literial language…………….I will paraphrase it as i understand it. If your eye (that part of how you see things) is Preventing you from entering into the kingdom of GOD cast (get rid of ) it from you, because it is better you suffer the lose of that then be cast into the (FIRE) intense judgments of GOD , where as long as that remains in your life the Judgements will not be stopped (quenched) . Jesus was simply Showing us whatever (offends) prevents us, we need to cast it from us our we will experience intense judgments and that judgement will not cease as long as that evil (worm) exists.
This is metaphoric language. Not literial. IMO
As far as parish goes, when a man dies scriptures says His thoughts (PARISH) if your thoughts parish you parish to. We remain that way until we are resurrected by GOD back to life , by him giving us new bodies and adding spirit back into it. Until then, when we die we will be in a perished state, and if GOD left us in that state we would parish for ever it would be as if we never existed. IMO
Sodom and Gomorrah………Will recieve more mercy in the Judgment them the Pharisees at the time of Christ scripture says. We are also told that it is appointed unto man to (Once) die and after that the Judgment, equating Judgment as eternal death is a far stretch because Judgment is exactly what everyone needs to see the errors of there ways, Judgment of GOD is the best thing that can happen to anyone , it enables us to correct our thinking and Change our Behaviors. While people can and have been turned to ashes under other peoples feet, does not mean they are eternally destroyed maybe in that flesh state but there is a resurrection of the dead. , and there is opportunity for repentance after the resurrection or how could Sodom and Gomorrah recieve mercy. Also Jesus even told the Pharisees that they would be (LAST) to (GO) into the KINGDOM OF GOD, he did not even rule them out. There is Hope FOR ALL. IMO
gene
Hi Gene:When Jesus talks of plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand, he is speaking of those in the body of Christ. If any part of your body causes you to sin, cut it off. One cannot be a partaker of their sin or else one will also end up in the lake of fire.
A fire that is not quenched and a worm does not die means that the Lord will not quench the fire or stop the worm as it destroys, but the fire will burn and the worm will destroy until all of substance is burned up. It will be completely destroyed.
Those in the OT who are not saved have already been judged. They have perished.
Sodom and Ghomorrah will not be raised again to receive additional judgment. That is not what Jesus meant by stating that judgment would be less severe on Sodom. He was indicating that judgment would be more severe on those who had seen him and the miracles that God had done through him than for those in the world who had not seen this.
Quote Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire The foregoing scripture states that Sodom and Ghomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.
Quote Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Love in Christ,
Marty
Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Seems the fires have gone out.Quote (942767 @ Oct. 29 2009,14:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,13:48) Hi 94,
So all men will not be raised to face judgement?
Heb 9.27 disagrees
Hi Nick:Adam and Eve died in the day that they ate of the knowledge of good and evil in disobedience to God's commandments, this was a spiritual death, and judgement followed. All of those after him partook of the same judgement. Those in the days of Noah were judged by the flood. Pharaoh was judged by God as the waters covered over him and his army as they pursued the children of Israel into the Red Sea. Those in the land of Canaan were judged by God through the nation of Israel as they dispelled them from the land. The nation of Israel who were under the law were judged by the law. Those who were striving to obey the commandments of God under the OT are a part of the body of Christ and are not guilty.
In the NT, the gospel is preached to all of those who are dead, that is spiritually dead, and judgment will follow. Those who come to God through the Lord Jesus, will be judged not guilty, and those who die spiritually separated from God will be judged according to the works that they have done in the body.
And so, it is appointed unto man once to die (spiritually), and after this the judgment.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate the fruit, they didn't die spiritually or physically. Adam repented5) Then adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #37)WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Hi Jack
You still haven't addressed the points of 2 Peter 3:10-13, saying the “elements will melt with fervent heat”, he uses this term a couple of times, and look closely at the Greek Jack for context demands it is a literal melting of the heavens and the earth.
Hi Keith,
I briefly dealt with this on the “We are in the new earth” tread I started. I said that this prophecy had to do with the passing away of the Mosaic economy. The “elements” were the things of the Mosaic economy and they were LITERALLY BURNED BY THE ROMANS.I provided some commentary from Preterists below. Please note especially those parts I have highlighted.
John Brown (1853)
Quote ” 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens” (vol. 1, p. 170) “It appears, then, that is Scripture be the best interpreter of Scripture, we have in the Old Testament a key to the interpretation of the prophecies in the New. The same symbolism is found in both, and the imagery of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the other prophets helps us to understand the imagery of St. Matthew, St. Peter, and St. John. As the dissolution of the material world is not necessary to the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, neither is it necessary to the accomplishment of the predictions of the New Testament. But though symbols are metaphorical expressions, they are not unmeaning. It is not necessary to allegorise them, and find a corresponding equivalent for every trope; it is sufficient to regard the imagery as employed to heighten the sublimity of the prediction and to clothe it with impressiveness and grandeur. There are, at the same time, a true propriety and an underlying reality in the symbols of prophecy. The moral and spiritual facts which they represent, the social and ecumenical changes which they typify, could not be adequately set forth by language less majestic and sublime. There is reason for believing that an inadequate apprehension of the real grandeur and significance of such events as the destruction of Jerusalem and the abrogation of the Jewish economy lies at the root of that system of interpretation which maintains that nothing answering to the symbols of the New Testament prophecy has ever taken place. Hence the uncritical and unscriptural figments of double senses, and double, triple, and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. That physical disturbances in nature and extraordinary phenomena in the heavens and in the earth may have accompanied the expiring throes of the Jewish dispensation we are not prepared to deny. It seems to us highly probable that such things were. But the literal fulfillment of the symbols is not essential to the verification of prophecy, which is abundantly proved to be true by the recorded facts of history.” (vol. i. p.200).
Gary DeMar (1996)
Quote “Jesus does not change subjects when He assures the disciples that “heaven and earth will pass away.” Rather, He merely affirms His prior predictions, which are recorded in Matthew 24:2931. Verse 36 is a summary and confirmation statement of these verses.(6) Keep in mind that the central focus of the Olivet Discourse is the desolation of the “house” and “world” of apostate Israel (23:36). The old world of Judaism, represented by the earthly temple, is taken apart stone by stone (24:2). James Jordan writes, “each time God brought judgment on His people during the Old Covenant, there was a sense in which an old heavens and earth was replaced with a new one:New rulers were set up, a new symbolic world model was built (Tabernacle, Temple), and so forth.”(7) The New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant with new leaders, a new priesthood, new sacraments, a new sacrifice, a new tabernacle (John 1:14), and a new temple (John 2:19; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:21). In essence, a new heaven and earth. The darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars, coupled with the shaking of the heavens (24:29), are more descriptive ways of saying that “heaven and earth will pass away” (24:35). In other contexts, when stars fall, they fall to the earth, a sure sign of temporal judgment (Isaiah 14:12; Daniel 8:10; Revelation 6:13; 9:1; 12:4). So then, the “passing away of heaven and earth” is the passing away of the old covenant world of Judaism led and upheld by those who “crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Corinthians 2:8). “
“John Owen, the Puritan scholar, knows his Bible better than most of the rest of us, and he tells us exactly where the Old Testament foretells a 'new heaven and earth.”
“Owen is right on target, asking the question that so many expositors fail to ask: Where had God promised to bring “new heavens and a new earth” The answer, as Owen correctly states, is only in Isaiah 65 and 66 – passages which clearly prophesy the period of the Gospel, brought in by the work of Christ.” (ibid., p. 495)
“Because of what may be called the 'collapsing universe' terminology used in this passage, many have assumed that St. Peter is speaking of the final end of the physical heaven and earth, rather than the dissolution of the Old Covenant world order.” (Last Days Madness, p. 540)
J. Marcellus Kik (1971)
Quote “Just a little reflection will show that to take Revelation 21 and 22 in a literal way is to make utter foolishness of that which John revealed. In that figurative passage you cannot say that the “new heaven and new earth” is a material concept while the rest is to be taken in a figurative way. The “new heaven and new earth” is but the same as “the holy city” and “the Lamb's bride.” (An Eschatology Of Victory, p. 254-256) John Owen (1721)
Quote 'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood. ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There
is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.” (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/n/new-heavens-earth.html
WJ:
Quote Also, can you provide any historical proof by any of the Forefathers or any early writings that Jesus has already physically returned to the earth and fulfilled Acts 1:10, 11 and Zech 14:1-9
Jesus never said that He would come back to earth. He said that they would see the “sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN” (Matt. 24:30). Zechariah 14 is speaking about a visitation of YHWH in Zechariah's day. Moses said that YHWH delivered them from Egypt referring to YHWH as a “man of war” “riding on a chariot.” This is the kind of thing Zechariah is speaking about. Christ is referred to as the “Messenger of YHWH” in Zechariah.NOTE: Let not the anti-trinitarians think this denies the trinity.
WJ:
Quote Is the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea? Jack this is the millennial reign!
The word “earth” should be translated “land.” It says that the whole “LAND” would be full of the knowledge of the Lord, that is, the land of Palestine. This has happened in Israel's history prior to Christ's first coming. There were times BEFORE Christ that the “whole LAND” was full of the knowledge of the Lord. There is no promise that the entire globe would be filled with the knowledge of the Lord.
According to Acts 2 this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
There is no earthly millennium taught anywhere in scripture. It was disembodied souls that reigned with Christ in the thousands of years (Rev. 20:4).
WJ:
Quote There is nothing to indicate that the context of Isa 11 necessarily was fulfilled in 30 – 60 years.
Isaiah 11 is about the first coming of Christ as I have already shown.PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW JERUSALEM IS A FIGURE FOR THE BRIDE OF CHRIST IF THE NEW EARTH IS LITERAL?
Does it make sense that the city is figurative but the rest is literal? PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY ISAIAH'S PROPHECY OF THE NEW EARTH SAYS THAT THERE IS DEATH, PROCREATION and SINNERS PRESENT.
PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY IN JOHN'S VISION THERE ARE SINNERS OUTSIDE THE GATES OF THE CITY WHO HAVE NOT YET BEEN CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THE JOHN SAW THAT WATERS OF SALVATION ARE STILL BEING OFFERED IN THE NEW EARTH.
(bold caps meant to get your special attention. I was not trying to be loud.)
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,10:02) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Hi Jack
You still haven't addressed the points of 2 Peter 3:10-13, saying the “elements will melt with fervent heat”, he uses this term a couple of times, and look closely at the Greek Jack for context demands it is a literal melting of the heavens and the earth.
Hi Keith,
I briefly dealt with this on the “We are in the new earth” tread I started. I said that this prophecy had to do with the passing away of the Mosaic economy. The “elements” were the things of the Mosaic economy and they were LITERALLY BURNED BY THE ROMANS.I provided some commentary from Preterists below. Please note especially those parts I have highlighted.
John Brown (1853)
Quote ” 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens” (vol. 1, p. 170) “It appears, then, that is Scripture be the best interpreter of Scripture, we have in the Old Testament a key to the interpretation of the prophecies in the New. The same symbolism is found in both, and the imagery of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the other prophets helps us to understand the imagery of St. Matthew, St. Peter, and St. John. As the dissolution of the material world is not necessary to the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, neither is it necessary to the accomplishment of the predictions of the New Testament. But though symbols are metaphorical expressions, they are not unmeaning. It is not necessary to allegorise them, and find a corresponding equivalent for every trope; it is sufficient to regard the imagery as employed to heighten the sublimity of the prediction and to clothe it with impressiveness and grandeur. There are, at the same time, a true propriety and an underlying reality in the symbols of prophecy. The moral and spiritual facts which they represent, the social and ecumenical changes which they typify, could not be adequately set forth by language less majestic and sublime. There is reason for believing that an inadequate apprehension of the real grandeur and significance of such events as the destruction of Jerusalem and the abrogation of the Jewish economy lies at the root of that system of interpretation which maintains that nothing answering to the symbols of the New Testament prophecy has ever taken place. Hence the uncritical and unscriptural figments of double senses, and double, triple, and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. That physical disturbances in nature and extraordinary phenomena in the heavens and in the earth may have accompanied the expiring throes of the Jewish dispensation we are not prepared to deny. It seems to us highly probable that such things were. But the literal fulfillment of the symbols is not essential to the verification of prophecy, which is abundantly proved to be true by the recorded facts of history.” (vol. i. p.200).
Gary DeMar (1996)
Quote “Jesus does not change subjects when He assures the disciples that “heaven and earth will pass away.” Rather, He merely affirms His prior predictions, which are recorded in Matthew 24:2931. Verse 36 is a summary and confirmation statement of these verses.(6) Keep in mind that the central focus of the Olivet Discourse is the desolation of the “house” and “world” of apostate Israel (23:36). The old world of Judaism, represented by the earthly temple, is taken apart stone by stone (24:2). James Jordan writes, “each time God brought judgment on His people during the Old Covenant, there was a sense in which an old heavens and earth was replaced with a new one:New rulers were set up, a new symbolic world model was built (Tabernacle, Temple), and so forth.”(7) The New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant with new leaders, a new priesthood, new sacraments, a new sacrifice, a new tabernacle (John 1:14), and a new temple (John 2:19; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:21). In essence, a new heaven and earth. The darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the stars, coupled with the shaking of the heavens (24:29), are more descriptive ways of saying that “heaven and earth will pass away” (24:35). In other contexts, when stars fall, they fall to the earth, a sure sign of temporal judgment (Isaiah 14:12; Daniel 8:10; Revelation 6:13; 9:1; 12:4). So then, the “passing away of heaven and earth” is the passing away of the old covenant world of Judaism led and upheld by those who “crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Corinthians 2:8). “
“John Owen, the Puritan scholar, knows his Bible better than most of the rest of us, and he tells us exactly where the Old Testament foretells a 'new heaven and earth.”
“Owen is right on target, asking the question that so many expositors fail to ask: Where had God promised to bring “new heavens and a new earth” The answer, as Owen correctly states, is only in Isaiah 65 and 66 – passages which clearly prophesy the period of the Gospel, brought in by the work of Christ.” (ibid., p. 495)
“Because of what may be called the 'collapsing universe' terminology used in this passage, many have assumed that St. Peter is speaking of the final end of the physical heaven and earth, rather than the dissolution of the Old Covenant world order.” (Last Days Madness, p. 540)
J. Marcellus Kik (1971)
Quote “Just a little reflection will show that to take Revelation 21 and 22 in a literal way is to make utter foolishness of that which John revealed. In that figurative passage you cannot say that the “new heaven and new earth” is a material concept while the rest is to be taken in a figurative way. The “new heaven and new earth” is but the same as “the holy city” and “the Lamb's bride.” (An Eschatology Of Victory, p. 254-256) John Owen (1721)
Quote 'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood. ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction o
f that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.” (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/n/new-heavens-earth.html
WJ:
Quote Also, can you provide any historical proof by any of the Forefathers or any early writings that Jesus has already physically returned to the earth and fulfilled Acts 1:10, 11 and Zech 14:1-9
Jesus never said that He would come back to earth. He said that they would see the “sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN” (Matt. 24:30). Zechariah 14 is speaking about a visitation of YHWH in Zechariah's day. Moses said that YHWH delivered them from Egypt referring to YHWH as a “man of war” “riding on a chariot.” This is the kind of thing Zechariah is speaking about. Christ is referred to as the “Messenger of YHWH” in Zechariah.NOTE: Let not the anti-trinitarians think this denies the trinity.
WJ:
Quote Is the earth full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea? Jack this is the millennial reign!
The word “earth” should be translated “land.” It says that the whole “LAND” would be full of the knowledge of the Lord, that is, the land of Palestine. This has happened in Israel's history prior to Christ's first coming. There were times BEFORE Christ that the “whole LAND” was full of the knowledge of the Lord. There is no promise that the entire globe would be filled with the knowledge of the Lord.
According to Acts 2 this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
There is no earthly millennium taught anywhere in scripture. It was disembodied souls that reigned with Christ in the thousands of years (Rev. 20:4).
WJ:
Quote There is nothing to indicate that the context of Isa 11 necessarily was fulfilled in 30 – 60 years.
Isaiah 11 is about the first coming of Christ as I have already shown.PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW JERUSALEM IS A FIGURE FOR THE BRIDE OF CHRIST IF THE NEW EARTH IS LITERAL?
Does it make sense that the city is figurative but the rest is literal? PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY ISAIAH'S PROPHECY OF THE NEW EARTH SAYS THAT THERE IS DEATH, PROCREATION and SINNERS PRESENT.
PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY IN JOHN'S VISION THERE ARE SINNERS OUTSIDE THE GATES OF THE CITY WHO HAVE NOT YET BEEN CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THE JOHN SAW THAT WATERS OF SALVATION ARE STILL BEING OFFERED IN THE NEW EARTH.
(bold caps meant to get your special attention. I was not trying to be loud.)
Jack
You sound like a Nazarene TT. I hope it isn't so.Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,00:53) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 29 2009,14:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,13:48) Hi 94,
So all men will not be raised to face judgement?
Heb 9.27 disagrees
Hi Nick:Adam and Eve died in the day that they ate of the knowledge of good and evil in disobedience to God's commandments, this was a spiritual death, and judgement followed. All of those after him partook of the same judgement. Those in the days of Noah were judged by the flood. Pharaoh was judged by God as the waters covered over him and his army as they pursued the children of Israel into the Red Sea. Those in the land of Canaan were judged by God through the nation of Israel as they dispelled them from the land. The nation of Israel who were under the law were judged by the law. Those who were striving to obey the commandments of God under the OT are a part of the body of Christ and are not guilty.
In the NT, the gospel is preached to all of those who are dead, that is spiritually dead, and judgment will follow. Those who come to God through the Lord Jesus, will be judged not guilty, and those who die spiritually separated from God will be judged according to the works that they have done in the body.
And so, it is appointed unto man once to die (spiritually), and after this the judgment.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate the fruit, they didn't die spiritually or physically. Adam repented5) Then adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #37)
Hi BD:Then who is speaking the truth? The God of the Bible or the God of the Quran?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 29 2009,22:29) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2009,18:09) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 29 2009,04:17) CT……..Jesus said if thy eye offend (preventing) you, cast if from you, for better it is to enter into life with one eye then have two and cast into the fire , where the (worm) dies not and the fire is not quenched. And he went on with the hand and the leg and ended with the same saying “where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. This is metaphorically speaking not literial language…………….I will paraphrase it as i understand it. If your eye (that part of how you see things) is Preventing you from entering into the kingdom of GOD cast (get rid of ) it from you, because it is better you suffer the lose of that then be cast into the (FIRE) intense judgments of GOD , where as long as that remains in your life the Judgements will not be stopped (quenched) . Jesus was simply Showing us whatever (offends) prevents us, we need to cast it from us our we will experience intense judgments and that judgement will not cease as long as that evil (worm) exists.
This is metaphoric language. Not literial. IMO
As far as parish goes, when a man dies scriptures says His thoughts (PARISH) if your thoughts parish you parish to. We remain that way until we are resurrected by GOD back to life , by him giving us new bodies and adding spirit back into it. Until then, when we die we will be in a perished state, and if GOD left us in that state we would parish for ever it would be as if we never existed. IMO
Sodom and Gomorrah………Will recieve more mercy in the Judgment them the Pharisees at the time of Christ scripture says. We are also told that it is appointed unto man to (Once) die and after that the Judgment, equating Judgment as eternal death is a far stretch because Judgment is exactly what everyone needs to see the errors of there ways, Judgment of GOD is the best thing that can happen to anyone , it enables us to correct our thinking and Change our Behaviors. While people can and have been turned to ashes under other peoples feet, does not mean they are eternally destroyed maybe in that flesh state but there is a resurrection of the dead. , and there is opportunity for repentance after the resurrection or how could Sodom and Gomorrah recieve mercy. Also Jesus even told the Pharisees that they would be (LAST) to (GO) into the KINGDOM OF GOD, he did not even rule them out. There is Hope FOR ALL. IMO
gene
Hi Gene:When Jesus talks of plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand, he is speaking of those in the body of Christ. If any part of your body causes you to sin, cut it off. One cannot be a partaker of their sin or else one will also end up in the lake of fire.
A fire that is not quenched and a worm does not die means that the Lord will not quench the fire or stop the worm as it destroys, but the fire will burn and the worm will destroy until all of substance is burned up. It will be completely destroyed.
Those in the OT who are not saved have already been judged. They have perished.
Sodom and Ghomorrah will not be raised again to receive additional judgment. That is not what Jesus meant by stating that judgment would be less severe on Sodom. He was indicating that judgment would be more severe on those who had seen him and the miracles that God had done through him than for those in the world who had not seen this.
Quote Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire The foregoing scripture states that Sodom and Ghomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.
Quote Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Love in Christ,
Marty
Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Seems the fires have gone out.
Hi Con:Of course the fire is not still burning, the scripture says “they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire”. That is past tense they already suffered this. My point with this post is to show that they won't be resurrected to incur further judgment.
Neither will the wicked in the NT who die in their sins and are judged according to their works in the coming judgment burn forever. They will be destroyed.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,00:53) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 29 2009,14:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,13:48) Hi 94,
So all men will not be raised to face judgement?
Heb 9.27 disagrees
Hi Nick:Adam and Eve died in the day that they ate of the knowledge of good and evil in disobedience to God's commandments, this was a spiritual death, and judgement followed. All of those after him partook of the same judgement. Those in the days of Noah were judged by the flood. Pharaoh was judged by God as the waters covered over him and his army as they pursued the children of Israel into the Red Sea. Those in the land of Canaan were judged by God through the nation of Israel as they dispelled them from the land. The nation of Israel who were under the law were judged by the law. Those who were striving to obey the commandments of God under the OT are a part of the body of Christ and are not guilty.
In the NT, the gospel is preached to all of those who are dead, that is spiritually dead, and judgment will follow. Those who come to God through the Lord Jesus, will be judged not guilty, and those who die spiritually separated from God will be judged according to the works that they have done in the body.
And so, it is appointed unto man once to die (spiritually), and after this the judgment.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate the fruit, they didn't die spiritually or physically. Adam repented5) Then adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #37)
DB……Wrong…..Adam and eve did die in the day they ate (took) to themselves the forbidden fruit.. Remember a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years with GOD. No one ever lived over a thousand years, so all died in the day they ate in Gods timing. IMOgene
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