Satan

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ May 28 2010,15:49)

Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2010,20:38)

Adam,

You apear ignorant of early Jewish beliefs as the Talmud fuses Satan with Ashmedai the king of demons. He seems to be less diabolical malign than in the book of Torbit. a deutercanical book. The book of Torbit is reported to have been written by a Hebrew the Naphtali tribe living in Assyria during the reign of Sargon II and it is believed it was written in the 2nd Cerntury B.C. despite the setting being based in 8th Century B.S. It is therefore an early Jewish source though I believe it to be historical fiction as opposed to an actual scripture. It still serves to show what some Jews believed at that time.

Here and here and here are my wikipedia sources.

Hi brother Kerwin,
You seem to follow all those non-canonical books which are deviated from the true religion of the Hebrew Bible. They never appeared in Cannon of Judaism. Please don't base your logics on those human imaginations. So you compare N.T with those human creations?

Adam,

Calling a book historic fiction is hardly following it.

I mentioned the book of Tobit just because even though I believe it is a fictional source I also believe it was writen by a Hebrew for a Hebrew audiance. I included it to show that the early view people have a wide view of the character of the king of demons who they also fuse with Satan. I am not stating I agree with that view point but I do agree that some Jews viewed him as such. You on the other hand are attempting to classify Jews in one small sect which is not accurate as they have and still have many differences in their religious opinions.

I also mentioned the Talmud which is the central text of what is considered mainstream Judaism in modern times.

I am not much for modern Judaism which I believe deviated from the true religion over 2000 years ago. I put more trust in the words of their ancestors from those early years of the First Century and before.

All I know is I hear a different message from the Talmud and older Jews than I hear from you.

May 28, 2010 at 10:38 am#192607

Participant

I only bring arguements based on the canonical books of the Bible and not on human imaginations. They are plenty if you want go into them. Please see the truth from the available canonical books.

May 28, 2010 at 11:12 am#192608

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ May 28 2010,16:38)

I only bring arguements based on the canonical books of the Bible and not on human imaginations. They are plenty if you want go into them. Please see the truth from the available canonical books.

Trash!

Your basic argument is that Christians are not modern Orthodox Jews and that argument is not found in scripture.

My basic counter argument is that Christian thought is consistent with Jewish thought as it was two thousand years and more ago.

In order to make either argument we have to go outside of scriptures and look to other sources. The book of Torbit and the Talmud are both such sources.

Is the tenet of Satan taught in the New Testiment consistent with the tenet of Satan taught in the Old Testiment then the answer is obviously yes without going to any external sources.

May 28, 2010 at 11:50 am#192610

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2010,22:12)

Is the tenet of Satan taught in the New Testiment consistent with the tenet of Satan taught in the Old Testiment then the answer is obviously yes without going to any external sources.

Hi brother I think you are biased towards Christianity. I don't think it is good for any honest truth seeker. Coming to to point above: Yes N.T deviates much on Satan and devil if you books like Jude, 1&2 Peter, Revelation etc. O.T never talks about some fallen angels as Satan or devils. O.T doesn't talk about Satan as any fixed individual like N.T claims as some individual fallen angel. For further details please see Jodi Lee's detailed post above.

Peace to you
Adam

May 28, 2010 at 2:50 pm#192614

Jodi Lee

Participant

In my last post I left off with the Fifth example of the word SAW-TAWN (adversary) in the bible. 1 Kings 11:14; 1 Kings 11:23; 1 Kings 11:25 speaks of God stirring up one man to be a SATAN against another.

The next use of saw-tawn (adversary) is-

1 Chronicles 20:5 And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam. 6 And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of great stature, whose fingers and toes were four and twenty, six on each hand, and six on each foot: and he also was the son of the giant. 7 But when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea David's brother slew him. 8 These were born unto the giant in Gath; and they fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants. 21:11 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go , number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

We see in the above that David felt threatened by a human adversary yet again. David show's a heart separated from God, for instead of relying on God, he relies on the number of his men. This angers God because it shows a lack of faith on David’s part, for when the LORD is on your side, the number of your army should not matter, for it would have no part in whether or not you would win a battle.

As said before there is NO scripture that speaks of God “allowing” evil spirits, who are said to be against Him and jealous of Him, to have control over the earth, being allowed to tempt human beings and influence or manipulate them to create wars.

Scripture however does speak of YHWH playing a personal role in the Leaders of the world and their armies.

Judges 2:14 And the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel. So He delivered them into the hands of plunderers who despoiled them; and He sold them into the hands of their enemies all around, so that they could no longer stand before their enemies.

1 Chronicles 21:9 And the Lord spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, 10 “Go and tell David, saying, 'Thus says the Lord: “I offer you three things; choose one of them for yourself, that I may do it to you.” ' “ 11 So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: 'Choose for yourself, 12 either three years of famine, or three months to be defeated by your foes with the sword of your enemies overtaking you, or else for three days the sword of the Lord–the plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.' Now consider what answer I should take back to Him who sent me.” 13 And David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Please let me fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are very great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man.” 14 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

Isaiah 9:11 Therefore the Lord shall set up The adversaries of Rezin against him, And spur his enemies on, 12 The Syrians before and the Philistines behind; And they shall devour Israel with an open mouth. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still. 13 For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them, Nor do they seek the Lord of hosts. 14 Therefore the Lord will cut off head and tail from Israel, Palm branch and bulrush in one day. 15 The elder and honorable, he is the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err, And those who are led by them are destroyed. 17 Therefore the Lord will have no joy in their young men, Nor have mercy on their fatherless and widows; For everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer, And every mouth speaks folly. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still. 18 For wickedness burns as the fire; It shall devour the briers and thorns, And kindle in the thickets of the forest; They shall mount up like rising smoke. 19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts The land is burned up, And the people shall be as fuel for the fire; No man shall spare his brother. 20 And he shall snatch on the right hand And be hungry; He shall devour on the left hand And not be satisfied; Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm. 21 Manasseh shall devour Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasseh; Together they shall be against Judah. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.

Jeremiah 21:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord when King Zedekiah sent to him Pashhur the son of Melchiah, and Zephaniah the son of Maaseiah, the priest, saying, 2 “Please inquire of the Lord for us, for Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon makes war against us. Perhaps the Lord will deal with us according to all His wonderful works, that the king may go away from us.” 3 Then Jeremiah said to them, “Thus you shall say to Zedekiah, 4 'Thus says the Lord God of Israel: “Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, with which you fight against the king of Babylon and the Chaldeans who besiege you outside the walls; and I will assemble them in the midst of this city. 5 I Myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger and fury and great wrath. 6 I will strike the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast; they shall die of a great pestilence. 7 And afterward,” says the Lord, “I will deliver Zedekiah king of Judah, his servants and the people, and such as are left in this city from the pestilence and the sword and the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of those who seek their life; and he shall strike them with the edge of the sword. He shall not spare them, or have pity or mercy.” ' 8 “Now you shall say to this people, 'Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death. 9 He who remains in this city shall die by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence; but he who goes out and defects to the Chaldeans who besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be as a prize to him. 10 For I have set My face against this city for adversity and not for good,” says the Lord. “It shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.” '

Jeremiah 49:37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies And before those who seek their life. I will bring disaster upon them, My fierce anger,' says the Lord; 'And I will send the sword after them Until I have consumed them.

We also see how God will allow MANY to suffer or even die to TEACH just ONE INDIVIDUAL!!! From the time of Adam to the resurrection, YHWH is producing Leaders, leaders who will reign with Christ and BE THE SONS of GOD THE WHOLE WORLD LIES IN LABOR PAINS WAITING FOR!! Our Heavenly Father used Christ as an example to produce a number of leaders. His plan is to then inturn use these SONS in the second resurrection to bring ALL PEOPLE into the knowledge of the truth. The INFLUENCE these SONS OF GOD will have on mankind will be ASTOUNDING, for they shall serve the Lord bringing ALL men into the unity of YHWH”S righteous character…..just my understanding anyway!

May 28, 2010 at 3:06 pm#192615

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ May 28 2010,16:43)

Word Satan in the Old Testament,
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 07854
Original WordWord Origin
!tXfrom (07853)

Transliterated WordTDNT Entry

SatanTWOT – 2252a
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
saw-tawnNoun Masculine

Definition
1.adversary, one who withstands
a.adversary (in general – personal or national)
2.superhuman adversary
a.Satan (as noun pr)

King James Word Usage – Total: 27
Satan 19, adversary 7, withstand 1

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Numbers 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went : and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him…..32 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

The first SATAN we see is a messenger of God, a messenger who performs God’s works and is called Hebrew saw-tawn because he is being an adversary unto man.
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1 Samuel 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return , that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be anadversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?

Second example of Hebrew saw-tawn represents a man being an adversary to other men.
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2 Samuel 19:22 And David said , What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?

Third use of Hebrew saw-tawn in the bible is once again a man being an adversary to another man.
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1 Kings 5:2 And Solomon sent to Hiram, saying , 3 Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the LORD his God for the wars which were about him on every side , until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet. 4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.

The fourth use of Hebrew saw-tawn (adversary), is once again representative of humans (military forces).
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1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom. 15 For it came to pass, when David was in Edom, and Joab the captain of the host was gone up to bury the slain, after he had smitten every male in Edom; 16 (For six months did Joab remain there with all Israel, until he had cut off every male in Edom:) 17 That Hadad fled , he and certain Edomites of his father's servants with him, to go into Egypt; Hadad being yet a little child. 18 And they arose out of Midian, and came to Paran: and they took men with them out of Paran, and they came to Egypt, unto Pharaoh king of Egypt; which gave him an house, and appointed him victuals, and gave him land. 19 And Hadad found great favour in the sight of Pharaoh, so that he gave him to wife the sister of his own wife, the sister of Tahpenes the queen. 20 And the sister of Tahpenes bare him Genubath his son, whom Tahpenes weaned in Pharaoh's house: and Genubath was in Pharaoh's household among the sons of Pharaoh. 21 And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead , Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart , that I may go to mine own country. 22 Then Pharaoh said unto him, But what hast thou lacked with me, that, behold, thou seekest to go to thine own country? And he answered , Nothing: howbeit let me go in any wise . 23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah: 24 And he gathered men unto him, and became captain over a band, when David slew them of Zobah: and they went to Damascus, and dwelt therein, and reigned in Damascus. 25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.

This is where the use of the word saw-tawn gets interesting, for in the above chapter we have God stirring up one man to be an adversary against another.

False Christianity teaches that a jealous malevolent fallen angel is behind men being against each other and causing them to engage in war. However NO such scripture ever states such, but we do have several scriptures where God causes the sword and war to occur among men, tribes, and nations, and where God plays an active role in the outcome of those wars.

Check out the following-

Deuteronomy 20:4 for the Lord your God is He who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.'

Deuteronomy 21:10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive,

Deuteronomy 28:7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.

Deuteronomy 28:25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth.

…………48 therefore you shall serve your enemies,whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. 52 They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege
and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

Scripture is very clear that it is YHWH who sends man against man, and that He plays an active role in the outcome of wars.

Notice how God knows how the Israelites will behave when given major hardship, like that of an ANIMAL (A SERPENT FOLLOWING AFTER it’s OWN NATURE), who will eat it’s own young in order to survive. A mother is brought to eat her own children, not because she is possessed by fallen angels, but because she FEARS her own life and turns to her instincts to survive, lacking a higher spirit that looks to God for strength and answers. Without the Holy Spirit working in man, man turns to act upon his nature a nature very much alike with that of serpents and other beasts of the field.

God will cause one nation to make war and pillage another nation. How does God cause one nation to come from afar and go against another? How many times in history have we seen tribes pick up and migrate because of lack of food due to pestilence and adverse weather conditions, and then fight against another tribe they encounter in order to take over their land that is more abundant? Who CONTROLS such things as bugs and weather through His Powers causing famine ?….it is YHWH He ALONE brings forth cursing and darkness. There is NO other God besides Him, which translates to mean there is NO OTHER being that exists with POWERS, only YHWH is the source, and He uses His Messengers to bring those inflictions, therefore making Messengers of God adversaries/ SAW-TAWNS. YHWH and His messengers are SATANS and DEMONS unto Man, bringing all sorts of darkness upon them, as Deuteronomy 28 makes it so very clear.

IMO The doctrine of fallen angels and demons within Christianity is a doctrine of FALSE gods!!

Deuteronomy 30:7 Also the Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.

Jeremiah 10:8 But they are altogether dull-hearted and foolish; A wooden idol is a worthless doctrine. 9 Silver is beaten into plates; It is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of the craftsman And of the hands of the metalsmith; Blue and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skillful men. 10 But the Lord is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation. 11 Thus you shall say to them: “The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.” 12 He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion. 13 When He utters His voice, There is a multitude of waters in the heavens: “And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, He brings the wind out of His treasuries.” 14 Everyone is dull-hearted, without knowledge; Every metalsmith is put to shame by an image; For his molded image is falsehood, And there is no breath in them.

2 Kings 1:1 Moab rebelled against Israel after the death of Ahab. 2 Now Ahaziah fell through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria, and was injured; so he sent messengers and said to them, “Go, inquire of Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this injury.” 3 But the angel of the Lord said to Elijah the Tishbite, “Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say to them, 'Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?' 4 Now therefore, thus says the Lord: 'You shall not come down from the bed to which you have gone up, but you shall surely die.' ” So Elijah departed.

Amos 1: 8 I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, And the one who holds the scepter from Ashkelon; I will turn My hand against Ekron, And the remnant of the Philistines shall perish,” Says the Lord God.

Zephaniah 2:4For Gaza shall be forsaken, And Ashkelon desolate; They shall drive out Ashdod at noonday, And Ekron shall be uprooted.

WHO do you think the people of Ekron denoted their uprooting too? Certainly it was not YHWH, it was their OWN MADE UP demons!!

False gods have been established through time out of ignorance. YHWH made himself known to Israel when he began the plagues and set them free from Egypt. YHWH gave them the law and watched over them, He fed them and protected them, and as well He tested them, and if they disobeyed He punished them.

Israel was to believe THE TRUTH, that it is YHWH ALONE who could bring blessing and cursing, for He is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and YHWH warned them against believing in false gods!! Other nations had no such communication with YHWH, they were left to their OWN IMAGINATIONS as to what might bring them blessing and cursing. Their imaginations created false gods.

Pagans attributed the good and bad things that happened to them to so called good and evil spirits, spirits they made up and made carved and molten images out of, ALL THE WHILE NOT KNOWING THE TRUTH, that it WAS YHWH, the only TRUE supernatural Spirit that is the SOURCE of ALL POWER!!

I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”

The god of Ekron, Beelzebub was a false god, it could not walk or talk or have any powers, and neither could it’s demons perform any powers. When Israel fell into captivity by these pagans they too started denoting plagues to false spirits. God predicted Israels worship of false gods, and their sin was not in that they loved these gods, it was that the FEARED them and DENOTED God’s POWERS to other beings.

Scripture NEVER states that fallen angels pose as false gods and are the demons that bring calamity to people. The Christian belief in Satan as a fallen angel who has power to inflict, is IMO equals pure IDOLATRY. To denote YHWH’s powers to another being is to CREATE A FALSE GOD. It’s rather ironic really…..Satan worshipers worship a false image that Christians MADE UP!! Being the one true God is not based upon being the supernatural being with final authority that is the only being worthy of honor and worship for righteousness sake, YHWH being the ONE TRUE God has EVERYTHING to do with him being the ONLY being that exists with POWERS.

Matthew 12:23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” 24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

The Pharisees believed in the god of Ekron Beelzebub and his demons. Ekron was not inflicted by a fallen angel pretending to be the god Beelzebub, we are told directly that it was YHWH that would curse other nations and therefore it was His evil spirits or rather DEMONS acting as a SATAN (adversary) unto the people. Matthew 12 exposes quite well that the Pharisees were whores, they believed in false gods!!

Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”

Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”

Deut 28:28 The Lord will strik
e you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart.

Daniel 4:24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: 25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses. 26 And inasmuch as they gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that Heaven rules.

Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding.

Job 12:23 He makes nations great, and destroys them; He enlarges nations, and guides them.24 He takes away the understanding of the chiefs of the people of the earth, And makes them wander in a pathless wilderness.

Psalm 75:6 For exaltation comes neither from the east Nor from the west nor from the south. 7 But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another. 8 For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, And the wine is red; It is fully mixed, and He pours it out; Surely its dregs shall all the wicked of the earth Drain and drink down.

There exists NO scripture that says YHWH “allows” a force of supernatural evil beings to inflict and curse people, on the contrary He says that He ALONE inflicts and curses people. There exists No scripture that says YHWH “allows” a force of supernatural evil beings to rule over the nations, on the contrary He says that it is He who has charge over kings and their kingdoms. Scripture shows that people who believed that “other beings” were capable of doing such things, were people who were FOOLISH, they were people believing in the imagination of their own minds!!

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As one continues to look at every instance in the OT where the Hebrew word for adversary (phonetic in Hebrew as saw-tawn) is used, they will see that there exists NO evidence of the Hebrew word representing one individual or a proper name of one individual.

Jodi Lee………….Good Post Sis. So-called (Christianity) Has taken the Word (Adversary) and turned it into a pagan Being, an unseen elusive CREATURE call Satan or DEVIL, BY there False teachings (doctrines about devils and demons) , which brings a curse on all who preach and believe in them. These teachings cause Phobias of all kinds in people. This is the PLAGUES Spoken of in Revelations.

1 Ti 4:1…….Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines (OF) (or about) devils.

While there are (ADVERSARIAL)SPIRITS (INTELLECTS), that do cause trouble in our lives , these come from GOD at time and from Man at other times, the word Satan is simply any adversarial Spirit working in anyone. Anyone can and at times is a SATAN (adversary). Pagan religion has turned that word (adversary) into a Metaphysical false belief about devils and satans and Demons. Creating another False God and it is as Jodi said PURE Idolatry. IMO

peace and love Jodi to you and yours………………..gene

May 28, 2010 at 6:33 pm#192627

KangarooJack

Participant

Nick said to Kangaroo Jack:

Quote

Hi TT/KJ,
Satan is in the lake of fire?
Then who is causing all the mischief?

Kangaroo Jack replied:

Quote

Have you not read James? He said that wars and fightings come from our desire for pleasure that is in our members (James 4)

ATTENTION ALL: The Bible CLEARLY says that satan has been cast into the lake of fire! Man is the SOLE cause of all mischief now.

Jack

May 29, 2010 at 4:36 am#192719

Participant

Adam,

You are correct that the Old Testiment does not speak of the of either demons or their king in any great length but you should also know that the mainstream Jews do not rely solely on their biblical cannon.

The reason for Satan is mentioned so little is because it mainly addresses the children of Isreal and their relationship with God and mainly speaks of the spiritual realm and its inhabitants in passing and then mostly when it relates to the main topic.

We learn a lot about the King of Demons in Job. He is mentioned in passing in several other passages but they do not tell us much about him.

It appears that he is the adversary of mankind who is under the command of God and causes ill events to befall them in order to tempt them to do evil as he did with Job. In 1 Chronicles 21:1 he tempted David to take a census of Isreal and David gave in to that temptation.

Now going by the evidence in scripture and perhaps other evidence that is not written the Jews have contructed their tenets around him and his ilk.

One branch of these tenets from two thousand years ago is what is recorded in the New Testiment. These tenets were not explained in the Old Testiment for the same reason Paul did not explain the tenets that existed around the third heaven mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:2. I can at least find a variation of the tenets Paul was speaking of my consulting Jewish beliefs that are related to the third heaven.

Now could you please tell me how what is taught in the New Testiment about Satan contradicts what is taught in the Old? Thank you!

May 29, 2010 at 5:23 am#192726

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 29 2010,05:33)

Nick said to Kangaroo Jack:

Quote

Hi TT/KJ,
Satan is in the lake of fire?
Then who is causing all the mischief?

Kangaroo Jack replied:

Quote

Have you not read James? He said that wars and fightings come from our desire for pleasure that is in our members (James 4)

ATTENTION ALL: The Bible CLEARLY says that satan has been cast into the lake of fire! Man is the SOLE cause of all mischief now.

Jack

Hi KJ,
Really?

Who is in the class you call to attention?
We serve a better and far more truthful teacher thanks.

May 29, 2010 at 5:44 am#192733

Participant

Kangaroo Jack,

That means the First Resurection and the Last Resurection has allready occured. It also means Jesus has returned and everyone missed seeing him in the clouds. In addition a thousand years have passed during which the Kingdom of Judah-Isreal was reestablished and Satan was bound.

I seemed to have missed an awful lot.

May 29, 2010 at 5:49 am#192735

Participant

Hi KW,
The 'light' is deep darkness for some.

May 29, 2010 at 1:12 pm#192756

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Nick………….Jesus said ” if that light in you be darkness , how great is that darkness”. I think our understanding varies and some have more understanding then other , much like a light can be varied by a dimmer switch in a room. But we should all be growing and the light should be getting brighter in us, with GOD'S Help.

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

May 29, 2010 at 2:05 pm#192759

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All…………Jodi has plainly explained about the Word SATAN , why is there no commits, is it because the “LIGHT” has been turned on?, and the blind are beginning to see or do some chose to remain blind. It's time to come out of (VOODOO) religions and come into the true light that set us free from false pagan teachings into the glorious liberty of the son of God. THERE IS (NO) INDIVIDUAL BEING CALLED A SATAN, ALL WHO HAVE AND ADVERSARIAL SPIRIT (intellect working in them) ARE SATANS (adversaries) NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS.

peace and love to you all……………………gene

May 31, 2010 at 5:55 am#193158

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2010,15:36)

Adam,

We learn a lot about the King of Demons in Job. He is mentioned in passing in several other passages but they do not tell us much about him.

Now going by the evidence in scripture and perhaps other evidence that is not written the Jews have contructed their tenets around him and his ilk.

Now could you please tell me how what is taught in the New Testiment about Satan contradicts what is taught in the Old? Thank you!

Here is how cocept of Satan and devil in N.T differs from O.T:
Satan is scarcely present in traditional Judaism to this day—
and not present at all in the form that Christians later came to know him, as the leader of an “evil empire,” an army of hostile spirits who make war on God and humankind alike.
In the New Testament, Satan is regarded as a very powerful being. He is the “God of the world” (yes! — “God” — see 2 Corinthians 4:4), “Prince of this world” (e.g. John 14:30), “Prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2), and a being with enough power that He could, with even the slightest hope of being convincing, “tempt” Jesus by offering him power in exchange for worship (Matthew 4:9). And Christians traditionally lump together “the Devil, the world, and the flesh.”

The high development of the demonology of the New Testament presupposes a long period of evolution. In the Gospels the beliefs of the lower orders of society find expression, and Satan and his kingdom are regarded as encompassing the entire world, and are factors in all the events of daily life. In strict accordance with his manifold activity he bears many names, being called “Satan” (Matt. iv. 10; Mark i. 30, iv. 15; Luke x. 18 et passim), “devil” (Matt. iv. 1 et passim), “adversary” (I Peter v. 8, ἀντίδικος; I Tim. v. 14, ἀντικείμενος), “enemy” (Matt. xiii. 39), “accuser” (Rev. xii. 10), “old serpent” (ib. xx. 2), “great dragon” (ib. xii. 9), Beelzebub (Matt. x. 25, xii. 24, et passim), and Belial (comp. Samael). The fall of Satan is mentioned in Luke x. 18, John xii. 31, II Cor. vi. 16, and Rev. xii. 9. He is the author of all evil (Luke x. 19 et passim; Acts v. 3; II Cor. xi. 3; Ephes. ii. 2), who beguiled Eve (II Cor. xi. 3; Rev. xii. 9), and who brought death into the world (Heb. ii. 13), being ever the tempter (I Cor. vii. 5; I Thess. iii. 5; I Peter v. 8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. iv.). The belief in the devil as here developed dominated subsequent periods, and influenced indirectly the Jews themselves; nor has it been entirely discarded to-day.

Satan and his host are mentioned comparatively seldom in the Talmud and Midrash, although the material on this subject is not without importance. In the older or tannaitic literature the name of Satan is met with but rarely. Thus in Ab. iv. 11 sin itself, and not Satan, is the accuser, the term κατήγωρ becoming a standing epithet of Satan in the New Testament, and being applied to him by the later Talmudic teachers also. In Tosef., Shab. xvii. (xviii.) 3 it is stated that the angels of Satan accompany the blasphemer on his way, according to Ps. cxv. 6, while a comparison of Gen. R. xxxviii. 7 with Sifre, Num. xxv. 1 shows how reference to Satan was introduced by the Amoraim into tannaitic sayings (Bacher, “Ag. Pal. Amor.” ii. 254); and in like manner “Satan” is substituted for “angel” in Ned. 32a.

(Taken from Jewish encyclopaedia)

May 31, 2010 at 6:07 am#193160

Participant

Hi GM,
A veil is over their face and you would like to join them in ignorance?
Their temple veil is torn

May 31, 2010 at 9:38 am#193176

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2010,17:07)

Hi GM,
A veil is over their face and you would like to join them in ignorance?
Their temple veil is torn

Hi brother Nick,
I always have doubt whether veil on our side or their side. Please see the truth about Satan in N.T which is far from the O.T. The Hebrew mal’ak and Greek angelos, are both terms meaning messenger. Satan is a messenger of God. Satan, as originally represented in the Hebrew Bible, was not the evil leader of demons opposed to God and God’s plan of salvation for humanity. Even to this day in Judaic thought, Satan is instead, a servant of God, obedient to him. Originally Satan, meaning literally “adversary”, was not a reference to a certain individual. Even with the definite article, “the sātān” is a reference to one sent by God to block the way. The reference could be to any angel that God sent to block one’s way, and it was neither a personal title nor a name given to the spirit Christians know as the Devil.

May 31, 2010 at 9:51 am#193177

Participant

For brother Kerwin:

Satan in the New Testament:

Satan had fully developed into the role of the adversary of God by the end of the Intertestimental period, and plays a dominant role in the New Testament. As such, Satan has numerous titles in the NT, including Satanas, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew sātān; the devil, greek ho diabolos, which was the term used in the translation of the Hebrew sātān in the LXX, and numerous titles within the later gospels including the tempter, the evil one, Beelzebul, the prince of demons, the enemy, and the prince of this world.[11]

The first record of Satan in the New Testament is found in the narrative of the temptation of Christ by Satan in the desert. The narrative is found in all three synoptic gospels, in Mark 1:12-13, Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13.[12] According to Page, this account of Satan tempting Christ is theologically critical. In the same way that Job was tested by Satan, who was allowed to test Job under the expressed permission of God, so too was Jesus led by the Spirit into the desert with the purpose of allowing Jesus to be tempted by Satan. As in Job, Satan was not initiating anything that was not within God’s will, though God himself tempts no one (James 1:13).[13] Again Satan is subordinate to God. Satan in this narrative is called the tempter, and his role in tempting is more akin to the role of the serpent in Genesis then it is to original conception of the adversary of early Judaism.

The major references to Satan in the new testament by Jesus himself include Matt. 5:37 & 6:13 in the sermon on the mount as well as references to him within the parables of Jesus including the parable of the sower, the parable of the weeds (Matt 13:24-30), and the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31 – 46). Jesus makes very clear the actual existence of Satan as an adversary of both God and humanity in the gospel of John, chapter 8, when he rebukes the religious leaders, calling the Devil a murderer and the father of lies with in whom there is no truth.

Page points out a double meaning in the famous rebuke of Peter by Jesus in Matt. 16:23. Peter had become a spokesman for Satan, trying to tempt Jesus away from suffering. The word play comes in where Jesus states, “Get behind me Satan!” Jesus is in essence Jesus telling Peter “the rock” not to be a “stumbling block”, or adversary, using the term satanas in its original Hebrew context of placing a stumbling block in one’s path. [14]

The major references to Satan in the New Testament are found within the Gospels and the book of Acts. Satan is called the prince of this world in three places, all in the gospel of John. John is portraying a Satan who has gained power in the world, not at the permission of God, but rather through the sin of humanity.[15]We find Satan referenced in regards to the betrayal of Jesus by Judas in Luke 22: 3-6 when we read that Satan enters Judas at the last supper. Mentioned in four places within the book of Acts (5:3; 10:38; 13:10; 26:18), Satan is portrayed, for the first time as exercising influence over the Christian community.[16]

Outside of the Gospels and Acts, we find reference to Satan in numerous letters, with numerous references within the Book of Revelation. The numerous names given to Satan in the apostolic writings include the evil one, the tempter, Belial, the god of this age, the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the enemy, the one of the world, the serpent, the dragon, and the accuser of our brothers.[17]

The main reference to Satan within the Pauline literature centered on excommunication from the Church. The phrase hand over to Satan points to the view Paul had of the world and the church’s place in the world. The world was where God was working but it was the realm that belonged to Satan.[18] To be excommunicated meant that you were no longer under the protection of the Church and therefore under the influence of Satan. In Paul’s view, there were only two choices.

In Hebrews and the general epistles, Satan is regarded as being made impotent (Hebrews 2:14). The writing of John, in its dualistic fashion, speaks of the defeat of Satan and of overcoming death. James and Peter also portray Satan as being overcome when we resist him (James 4:7). Jude 9 focuses on the aspect of rebuking the Devil using the authority of the Lord.

Revelation has by far the most extensive take on Satan, his purpose, and his final fate. In summery, Satan makes an appearance in chapters 2 and 3 in the letters to the churches, in chapter 9 in the visions of the fifth trumpet, in chapter 12 with the woman and the dragon, in chapter 13 with the two beasts, in chapter 16 with the sixth bowl of God’s wrath, and in chapter 20 in regards to the millennial period.[19] By this stage, the latest writing of the New Testament, Satan is now fully developed as the enemy of God and is dualistically portrayed as completely evil as opposed to God who is completely holy.

Source: http://knol.google.com/k/satan-a-history#

Hope your queries are answered on the variations of N.T from O.T on Satan and devil.

Peace to you
Adam

May 31, 2010 at 9:54 am#193178

Participant

Hi GM,
The Spirit given in the New covenant revealed much more about spiritual realities and casts new light on the OT.
But men prefer darkness and old wine

May 31, 2010 at 1:32 pm#193212