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Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2010,17:57) C
23. And since the Apostle in one place does not pretend that it rests with God whether a man becomes a |163 vessel unto honour or unto dishonour, but puts the whole responsibility upon us, saying, “If then a man purge himself, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work”; and elsewhere he does not pretend that it depends upon us but lays the whole responsibility upon God, when he asserts that “the potter hath a right over the clay, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour”,514 and his statements are not contradictory; we must bring them both together, and from the two draw one sound conclusion. The power we have does not compel us to advance in goodness apart from the knowledge of God, nor does the knowledge of God compel us to advance unless we also contribute to the good result; for neither does our power apart from the knowledge of God, and the full use of what is in a worthy sense our “power,” make a man to be unto honour or unto dishonour; nor does God's power alone fashion a man unto honour or dishonour unless He have our choice, inclining to the better or the worse, as a sort of raw material out of which to make the difference.
Terricca…………a bunch of Garbage, He says the POWER of MAN or OUR POWER to Change. So why did Jesus say, 'AFTER YOU HAVE RECEIVE POWER FROM ON HIGH” then, if we have all the POWER to Change IN US” Pure false teachings Trying to remove GOD out of the picture in our salvation process and Denying HIS CREATIVE POWERS if a False teaching by whoever wortes that > IMOQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2010,13:28) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2010,17:57) C
23. And since the Apostle in one place does not pretend that it rests with God whether a man becomes a |163 vessel unto honour or unto dishonour, but puts the whole responsibility upon us, saying, “If then a man purge himself, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work”; and elsewhere he does not pretend that it depends upon us but lays the whole responsibility upon God, when he asserts that “the potter hath a right over the clay, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour”,514 and his statements are not contradictory; we must bring them both together, and from the two draw one sound conclusion. The power we have does not compel us to advance in goodness apart from the knowledge of God, nor does the knowledge of God compel us to advance unless we also contribute to the good result; for neither does our power apart from the knowledge of God, and the full use of what is in a worthy sense our “power,” make a man to be unto honour or unto dishonour; nor does God's power alone fashion a man unto honour or dishonour unless He have our choice, inclining to the better or the worse, as a sort of raw material out of which to make the difference.
Terricca…………a bunch of Garbage, He says the POWER of MAN or OUR POWER to Change. So why did Jesus say, 'AFTER YOU HAVE RECEIVE POWER FROM ON HIGH” then, if we have all the POWER to Change IN US” Pure false teachings Trying to remove GOD out of the picture in our salvation process and Denying HIS CREATIVE POWERS if a False teaching by whoever wortes that > IMO
geneyou even don't want to understand scriptures
so what s the point ? you are self centered.
Pierre
How to be saved? No, we cannot save ourselves by our own efforts. It is God, and Him alone, through His son “Christ Jesus”, that saves us.
Eph.2:10 …For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.
Eph.2:8 …For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present
Notice… “and this is not out of you”1Tim.4:10-11 … that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.1Tim.2:4 …Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
Is Gods will just a “wish”, I think not, His will “will be done”.To sum it all up…1Cor.8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. (1Cor.8:6)
Scripture says it all, we cannot “earn” our salvation, it is God, and Him alone, through Christ Jesus, that does it all.
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (dirtyknections @ Oct. 28 2010,05:43) This whole thread is study in semantics….hahahaha
Dk,
There is a section called Member profiles,
Do me a favor if you wish to explain exactly what you believe and where do you stand, because Your NEW (I think)So I have no idea where you stand or what issues your trying to argue.
I like to understand people in HN.
How to be saved? No, we cannot save ourselves by our own efforts. It is God, and Him alone, through His son “Christ Jesus”, that saves us.
Eph.2:10 …For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.
Eph.2:8 …For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present
Notice… “and this is not out of you”1Tim.4:10-11 … that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.1Tim.2:4 …Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
Is Gods will just a “wish”, I think not, His will “will be done”.To sum it all up…1Cor.8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. (1Cor.8:6)
Scripture says it all, we cannot “earn” our salvation, it is God, and Him alone, through Christ Jesus, that does it all.
God Bless, Jerry.
Hi brother Jerry,
Greetings to you after a long time. I hope things are well on your side. Your posts are wonderful. I appreciate if God is the saviour of all as you quoted above. But the problem of our Bible is it contradicts itself by stating only few are chosen. Those who are in the plan of God are only being saved. I wonder whether Christianity can be universal religion as we claim. I am in India we Christians are only 3-5% of our total population of 1200 million. Do you think all others will be damned to so called hell. If the Gospel has to be preached to all those millions of people how long it will take and how fast it should be preached before they die? I don't think this is the practical approach. I believe there are holes in our Biblical doctrines. We imagine so many things but they are not so true if we see them with rational mind.Love and peace to you
AdamAdam……….God's purpose is to save all, its just when that takes place and how, There is only a few chosen now at this time and they will be servants to all the rest and instructors in the ways of GOD in the future and will work to educate all of creation after they are resurected to life again. Gods purpose is to deliver his whole creation from the bondage of corruption and his purposes will ultimately stand, This is what Chosenone is saying and i also agree with that, as scripture he post confirms it brother. We are all being taught things by our experiences we go through here and now and these will work to help us all both now and in the future. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Hi Adam, thanks for your reply. I enjoy your input, you are always kind and never rude when replying as others sometimes are. When you disagree, you state your points very well and never try to insult, you are a pleasure to correspond with.
When you say…Quote But the problem of our Bible is it contradicts itself by stating only few are chosen. Those who are in the plan of God are only being saved.
You must remember that the book of Matthew, part of the four gospels, was only about Israel, Gods chosen people, in this era (Matt.15:24). They, Israel, did not accept Jesus as their prophesied “messiah”, and had Him crucified, so God 'divorsed them' (Acts 13:46) and turned to the 'nations'. He (God) will once again redeam them when He makes a “New covenant” with them in the future. (Heb.8:10-13)
His (God) ways are not our ways, they are much deeper, and we can only come to understanding what He is doing when He baptises us with the Holy Spirit. Scripture says “All is of God” (2Cor.5:18-19) and He will save all mankind at the consummation.
I will copy 1Cor.15:10-28 for you, as this is a good explanation of Gods plan for all mankind…10 Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I — yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
11 Then, whether I or they, thus we are heralding and thus you believe.
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith — you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)God Bless, Jerry.
Hi brother Jerry I too like your open heartedness here. Coming to verses you quoted from Matthew and Hebrews I agree but there are plenty of verses to prove that election and predestination are true from N.T. Here are such verses;
“For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matt. 22:14 ESV).
“And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short” (Matt. 24:22 ESV).
“And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night” (Luke 18:7 NIV)?
“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen” (John 13:18a NASB).
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit” (John 15:16a NKJV).
“this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God” (Acts 2:23a NASB).
“For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified” (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB).
“though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call” (Rom. 9:11 ESV).
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will” (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJV).
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1-2a NASB).
No where these verses differentiate Jews from Gentiles in election and predestination. It talks in general. I like your way of telling “all will be saved” if so when and how?
Brother Gene seems to say in the end when the resurrection occurs Is it OK?But Revelation seems to go in different direction stating all those whose names are not written in the book of life/Lamb will be doomed to eternal torment or Hell fire. How to reconcile all these variations?
Thanks and peace to you
AdamHi Adam:
Maybe these scriptures will help.
Quote Luke 12:42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
Love in Christ,
MartyGene, if all people are saved, what do you make of Revelations, and all the other parts of the Bible ? I know Iv been there before………….everyone will be saved, but Gene, think, how could that be ? Its nice to think God will save all, nice to think we're all here to learn, that each is valued, in a perfect place that would be. But its not perfect Gene, which is why those who continue to cause problems have to go. Have to be destroyed, as scripture says.
What do you make of the second death Gene ?
Forget eternal torment in hell though, thats inhumane and sick. God wouldnt do that.
Shimmer……..Death can mean more then to no longer exist. It can mean to no longer exist in that state. Here is an example of what i am saying when a marriage dies the marriage is dissolved but the man and women still are alive. The second death implies that the first death did not eliminate that person right?, or how could he have a second death then. The first death (could be) speaking of Putting our Wills to death and Gods Will being done in Us, and perhaps those who have not accomplished that in this first life may have to have it happen in the next life. So you see there can be different way to see death. At some point that seed must fall and die in order to be reborn again anew, “Whosoever will save his life will loose it and will lose his life for the kingdom of God sake will save it”, either way he or she must die to their self give up (THEIR LIFE) to get a new Life. so in that sense we die that is to ourselves, and live to GOD, as Jesus did to himslef. It is letting go of one thing completely to acquire another, so if a person has not died to himself in this life he will Physical die and be resurected and then have to die again because he did not accomplish it in the First life he had. There is a spiritual death and there is a Physical death both are deaths. IMO
So lets never give up on GOD and His ability to accomplish he goal to save All Mankind , no matter how hopeless it may seen at the moment, Remember Jesus said “ALL THING (ARE) POSSIBLE WITH GOD” and if He is not WILLING any PARISH then None will PARISH. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Gene
Death is the absence of life, how can you compare that to a marriage?
The first death is just as deadly as the second, only after the first death you will be resurrected, that is what Jesus died for; he will only die for you once, the second time you stay dead.
God's will is that all men live, but he will not force any one to live.Jesus did not die to himself, he died for us so we can live. Death is the punishment for sin, Jesus did not sin, Jesus did not deserve death; he was our sacrifice for our sins.
Just how do you die to yourself? it would be more correct to say, every body is living for himself.
All of us will physically die, and we all will be resurrected in the millennium, when Christ is ruling this earth.
The only way you will die again, second death, is, if you don't obey the teachings of Jesus.If you believe that all men will live, will be saved, then you are ignoring an awful lot of scriptures.
If you were right, then why does the Bible speak of the Lake of fire?Georg
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 22 2010,02:56) Gene, if all people are saved, what do you make of Revelations, and all the other parts of the Bible ? I know Iv been there before………….everyone will be saved, but Gene, think, how could that be ? Its nice to think God will save all, nice to think we're all here to learn, that each is valued, in a perfect place that would be. But its not perfect Gene, which is why those who continue to cause problems have to go. Have to be destroyed, as scripture says. What do you make of the second death Gene ?
Forget eternal torment in hell though, thats inhumane and sick. God wouldnt do that.
shimmerwhat is that eternnal torment??
Pierre
Gene, Georg is right, you are ignoring a lot of scriptures. I do know 'Universal salvation' was taught in some early writings…. who knows ?
Terrarica, you know what that means, preachers teaching that all who dont become a Christian will be tormented forever without end in hellfire without ever dyeing…it's false teaching, God wouldnt do this.
Geroge………… How can the first death be just as deadly as the second death if they are (BOTH) just as deadly then how is a person brought back to life to die again if the First death was Just as deadly. Indeed death is the absent of life, Death is death, no matter if it is a Marriage, or even a friendship, it can be anything that ceases to function as it was.
If we through the Spirit put our old man to death we become a new creation in GOD, the old man must die. What do you think this means , He that will lose His life shall save it, He that will save his life shall lose it. We must die to ourselves in order to live to GOD , Our very Baptism indicates this death and resurrection to a new life , the death of the old life and the berth of a new life. You are just seeing death though a physical view of it, but trust me there are many types of deaths. “FREE Willer's” are those who refuse to put themselves to death, therefore they exercise their Wills not GOD Will. But what did Jesus say regarding his will, “NOT MY WILL BE DONE BUT THY WILL BE DONE.
If a grain does not fall to the ground and die it abides along , but if it falls (from self) and (dies) it comes forth in a new way of living. There fore whosoever will (NOT) lose his life (the way he lives) abides along, but he who (LOSES) his life (the way he lives) for the kingdom of God sake is a new creation. Lets not kid ourselves we must put our lives, (the way we live) to death in order to truly live. IMO
Peace and love to you and Irene
Shimmer………Show some of the lots of scriptures that say that Shimmer. Fire is a form of Judgment and is used symbolically in scriptures as a form of purification brought about by intense Judgements. “THIS FIERY TRIAL WHICH HAS TRIED YOU AS IF SOME STRANGE THING HAS HAPPENED UNTO YOU”. and again, it says EVERY MANS WORK SHALL BE TRIED BY FIRE AND IF HE HAS BUILT WITH GOLD, SILVER OR PRECIOUS STONES HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD, BUT IF HE HAS BUILT WITH WOOD , HAY, OR STUBBLE, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSE BECAUSE THE FIRE SHALL BURN IT UP , (BUT) HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED (YET AS BY FIRE)> intense judgments.
God himself is the Consuming Fire or (intense Judge of all things)> Fire can destory that is true, but it also can purify as in the case of Gold and precious metals. When fire is applied to these thing their impurities float up to the top and appear visible and can be scraped off and separated from the pure metal and leave the metal purified, in the same way God's intense Judgment will purify many if not all. I say if not all because of God power to cleanse us from our sins and transgressions, and that He said it is “NOT HIS WILLING THAT ANY (PARISH)” and in another place it say His WILL, WILL BE DONE< and there is another scripture that say the (whole creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption unto the Glorious liberty of the son of God. So i don't count any out of Salvation.
I believe ALL Thing are Possible with GOD, so i hold out hope for all. If God is able to get into a hard Head like Peter was and reveal the truth to him and if he accepts a murder and adulator like King David was, who am I to say what he will or will not do with (HIS) creation. Even Sodom and Gomorrah will recieve mercy in the resurrection according to Jesus, again who are we to condemn another, it was Jesus who died for us all and GOD who forgives and saves. I am not going to say any shall (PARISH), I did not say Die because all have died or will die, because it is appointed unto man once to die and then after that the Judgment. I hold out hope for all because who GOD the FATHER is, not because who we are. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 22 2010,20:58) Gene, Georg is right, you are ignoring a lot of scriptures. I do know 'Universal salvation' was taught in some early writings…. who knows ? Terrarica, you know what that means, preachers teaching that all who dont become a Christian will be tormented forever without end in hellfire without ever dyeing…it's false teaching, God wouldnt do this.
Greetings Shimmer….Let us put our Bibles down and stop with the volley of scripture torsing arounrd and examine what I would hope we all should know…Can we agree that God loves us all and takes no pleasure in any us falling short,yet we all fall short of his glory and for that reason he gave us a savior…He also gave us a set of rules to live by,which incidently,it is virtually impossible to do with out his grace and loving nature…For God so loved the world and the people in it…Now with all the confusion organized religion has created we have come to accept that this loving mercifull God would condemn all those who do not follow christianity as we know today…..We will all face death and after death will be the resurection…The period of time that follows the resurection is when all will have a chance to see Gods plan and his Kingdom/Government at that time we will say to each other how could it have been any other way? The sad thing is that there will be those who will reject Gods government and as a result they will cease to exist they will be consumed never to exist again…there will be no eternal torment for all except those such as the false prophet and the beast…I would think that this would be the justice of a loving mercifull God…What do you think?
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