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CO,
No lie was ever found in his mouth but every other man can be found a liar.
Still we await proof of the message being only for jews in Mt15.24.Nick posted
Quote Co,
You tell us the fact Jesus was sent to israel is proof the teachings are not for us.
But you offer no support for this idea so it seems your work here is just to be obstructive.The author to the Hebrews admonishe his readers to leave the “elementary” teachings of Christ and to move on to perfection. I would say that the teachings of Paul are for us today.
thinker
Hi and welcome TT,
I agree that Paul would rather have been able to move on to deeper teachings as shown in Heb 6 but he was frustrated by the fact that the basics were still not fully accepted. Paul was a wonderful expounder of practical aspects of the gospel of the kingdom of God but he never exceeded the role of his Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.2Jn
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Gal1
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Nick,
The authore to the Hebrews associates the elementary teachings of Christ with “dead works”.Quote therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works…. It appears that this is saying that the teachings that Christ gave to Israel were to discarded altogether. It says that to continue with them is to lay a foundation again which would be absurd and that they amount to “dead works”. Obviously we should not continue with “dead works” I have been accused of heresy for saying this. But is it “truth or tradition”?
thinker
Hi TT,
Indeed the Hebrews had relied on works [LAW]to inherit the kingdom and in Christ these works are fulfilled and faith demands such an approach must be set aside with their reliance now on the righteousness of the Son of God into whom we should have been reborn. The role of the old Law schoolmaster for Jews submits to the role of the Spirit of God teaching from within.We as gentiles were never under that law and were lost so Jesus is our only hope. As prodigal sons we can undeservedly rejoin the family of God by being clothed with Christ in baptism.
Gal3
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Nick,
Are you saying now that the teachings were for israel alone? We appear to be in agreement but I want to make surethinker
p.s. How do I edit my posts on this board? I wanted to correct my spelling in my first two posts and couldn't figure out how. Misspelled words would make thethinker look dumb.
Hi TT,
Heb 6
” 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection;not laying again
the foundation “
{AND THESE SIX COMPRISE THAT FOUNDATION}
“of repentance from dead works,
and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms,
and of laying on of hands,
and of resurrection of the dead,
and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit. “
These foundational teachings should be quickly accepted as basic truths so we can accept greater matters.
But they remain the foundational teachings of our faith building on Christ himself .
Nick,
We know for sure that two of the foundational princiles do not apply today, namely repentance and baptsim. The apostles preached repentance and baptism to Israel alone. It stands to reason that if two of the six foundational principles do not apply then neither do the remaing four. And it stands to reason that the remaing four apply to Israel alone.Then it goes on to say that those who would lay the foundation again could not be “renewed again to repentance”. What do you think this means?
Once a foundation is laid you build upon it. You don't keep going back to it and laying it again. The foundational principles of Christ were for Israel alone. Paul's teachings are for everyone. This idea also doesn't go well with many.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 22 2009,08:34) Nick,
Are you saying now that the teachings were for israel alone? We appear to be in agreement but I want to make surethinker
p.s. How do I edit my posts on this board? I wanted to correct my spelling in my first two posts and couldn't figure out how. Misspelled words would make thethinker look dumb.
Hi TT,
The demands of the Law were for the Jews.Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;But the words are helpful for all men and will never perish.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 22 2009,08:53) Nick,
We know for sure that two of the foundational princiles do not apply today, namely repentance and baptsim. The apostles preached repentance and baptism to Israel alone. It stands to reason that if two of the six foundational principles do not apply then neither do the remaing four. And it stands to reason that the remaing four apply to Israel alone.Then it goes on to say that those who would lay the foundation again could not be “renewed again to repentance”. What do you think this means?
Once a foundation is laid you build upon it. You don't keep going back to it and laying it again. The foundational principles of Christ were for Israel alone. Paul's teachings are for everyone. This idea also doesn't go well with many.
thinker
Hi TT,
No.
False teachers will preach this but scripture is greater.
The eunuch was a gentile and so was Cornelius
Acts 8
27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 10
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Hi Nick,
The context indicates that the returning again to those elementary principles of Christ amounted to apostasy for the Jew:Quote For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. It seems to me that Israel's going back to the elementary principles of Christ is a very serious matter that carried with it some pretty dire consequences for the them. How can those principles apply today then?
thinker
Hi TT,
Returning to the basic principles of Christianity is not the problem for them but returning to reliance on dead works is.
Indeed the Jews had to make a serious choice as the salvation in Jesus is not to be taken lightly.
What does scripture speak of when it says the 'synagogue of satan'?[Rev]
Those who are enlightened? That verse applies also to gentiles who fall away from the teachings of sacred scripture even denying their Master
Hi TT,
You say
“Once a foundation is laid you build upon it. You don't keep going back to it and laying it again. The foundational principles of Christ were for Israel alone. Paul's teachings are for everyone. This idea also doesn't go well with many.”Nobody who claims to follow Jesus should ignore and no obey the teachings that are relevant to him.
You say repentance is outdated but Pauls teachings are valid? Then listen to Paul preaching to gentiles in Athens
Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Nick posted:
Quote Then listen to Paul preaching to gentiles in Athens
Greetings again Nick,
Paul was preaching in the synagogue of the Jews and they took him by force to the Areopagus. So he thought, “What the heck, I'll give these guys a lesson on God too”. My point: Paul did not seek on his own initiative to preach in the Areopagus. He was dragged to the Areopagus.Paul was detoured. When traveling I may plan to take a certain route with the intention to pass through particular cities or townships and then find myself detoured. I may end up spending the night in a Motel that I had not sought out. Paul and the apostles did not seek out the Gentiles. Yet Paul found himself preaching in the Areopagus due to no plan of his own. Jesus commanded that they should go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is what they did.
So I will restate the matter. The apostles did not seek out the Gentiles. But even if they did it doesn't matter. Repentance and baptism has been abolished along with the other “elementary principles” of Christ. And the going back to those things carried with it dire consequences for the Jew as I have shown. And I would like for you to discuss those consequences with me.
thinker
Hi TT,
That is not what my bible says.
Acts 17
” 14And then immediately the brethren sent away Paul to go as it were to the sea: but Silas and Timotheus abode there still.15And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.
16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. “
No matter.
Pauls' own plans were railroaded by Gods' perhaps.
God was utterly in charge of his destinations and all his work.
He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ and his God to gentilesRepentance and baptism are not out of date as the message of the gospel has never changed and will not do so except in the minds of men. The audience is irrelevant as the kingdom is open to all men through Jesus.
No foundation principle of new testament scripture has been abolished as God does not change His mind or offer different ways to different ears in different generations. The only consequences wer to the Jews who tried to discard the sacrifice of Jesus and return to trying to please God by the Law.
Hi TT,
Another gentile salvation
Acts 16
27And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Seems awfully similar to what Peter said to the Jews at Pentecost.
Acts 2
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
That PROMISE still stands.
But ears have become deaf due to theological nonsense.Hi TT,
You say
“We know for sure that two of the foundational princiles do not apply today, namely repentance and baptsim. “Do we?
Who told you?
By whose authority?It is safer to obey the everlasting scriptures of God.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 22 2009,08:34) Nick,
Are you saying now that the teachings were for israel alone? We appear to be in agreement but I want to make surethinker
p.s. How do I edit my posts on this board? I wanted to correct my spelling in my first two posts and couldn't figure out how. Misspelled words would make thethinker look dumb.
You can now edit your posts.NOTE: Editing is only for correcting grammar, spelling, and for making your point clearer only. Not to be used to change a post as this wasted the time of all who reply.
Thanks.
Quote 17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Nick,
Note that the verse you provided from Acts 17:17 says nothing about going to the Gentiles. It says explicitly that Paul went into the synagogue and disputed “with the Jews”.The Acts 16 passage you provided provides no evidence whatsoever that the Philippian jailer was a was a Gentile. And even if he was I have said that the apostles did not intentionally go to Gentiles. Paul was in prison and the jailer inquired about salvation of Paul. Paul did not speak to the jailer first about salvation. Jesus commanded His disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If they had sought out the gentiles on their own they would have disobeyed their Lord. Paul said to the jew first. Therefore, they could not go to Gentiles until they completed their mission to the Jews. And by that time Paul had received new revelations that the gospel was faith alone.
The narrative in Acts 2 clearly indicates that Peter was addressing the men of Israel (vs. 22).
Thinker said:
Quote We know for sure that two of the foundational princiles do not apply today, namely repentance and baptsim. Nick replied:
Quote Do we? Who told you? By whose authority? Nick ,
I have already shown you from Hebrews 6 the consequences to Jews that would go back to the “elementary principles” of Christ. It says that this would amount to apostasy and that it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. It says that they would be crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to an open shame. The consequences that going back to the elementary principles brings necessarily infers that those principles are not applicable now. Baptism and repentance are among those elementary principles.The Gospel has changed and is based on Paul's faith alone principle now. There is no works required today. The Gospel goes out to all men today.
thinker
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