Sahidic Coptic translation of John 1:1

[terraricca]

edj

Jn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? KJV

Jn 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” NIV

which one was proven to be true in time ?

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2013,04:02)

edj Jn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? KJV Jn 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” NIV which one was proven to be true in time ?

What the Greek says.

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2013,01:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2013,04:02) edj Jn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? KJV Jn 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” NIV which one was proven to be true in time ? What the Greek says.

edj

if you think that i will do the work and you supervise the action your are second to me ,either you answer or this conversation is over

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2013,00:08)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2013,11:17) Jesus is the Son of Jehovah of hosts. Where specifically does it say this in the scripture since you imply that it is a scriptural claim?

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Is Jehovah of hosts the child who is to be born?  Or the one whose zeal will accomplish all these things?

Jeremiah 30
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Is Jehovah of hosts David?  Or the one who will raise up their king David for them?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2013,00:08)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2013,11:17) Has anyone who likes the translation “and the Word was God” been able to figure out how the one being known to us as “God” could possibly have been WITH the one being known to us as “God” in the beginning? Jehovah God is with Jehovah of Host. Simple.

So TWO gods, then?  One of whom was WITH the other?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2013,08:47)

Back to the topic. What the translators of the Coptic did has no bearing on what John 1:1 says in the Greek. That is like you posting the N.W.T. and claim that it proves your point; clearly it doesn't!

Eddy,

T8's point is simple.  Either you AGREE with your AKJV that Jesus called Judas “a devil”, or you DISAGREE with your AKJV once again – thus proving that it is NOT the only “legit Bible inspired of God” – or whatever that claim is you make about it.

So which is it?  Is your AKJV WRONG once again by saying “one of you IS A devil” in John 6:70?  Or are YOU wrong for trying to discredit that AKJV translation?

As for your point above, what the Coptic translation proves is that the very first time anyone ever had at translating John 1:1c as “and the Word was a god”………. THEY DID EXACTLY THAT!

Nor are the Coptic and NWT the only translations that do it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2013,09:15)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2013,17:42) Hi Everyone, All this wrangling is based on the presumption that Jesus (according to the traditions of men) is “The Word”. I agree with Ed that all the wrangling is because of the presumption that “the Logos” is Jesus.

What we KNOW for a fact from scripture is that the Word BECAME flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

And only one person in history ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

So I'd say we are holding on to a pretty solid presumption.

(And that's without even considering the many other scriptural teachings, such as all things were created through the Word, and all things were created through Jesus………. etc.)

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2013,02:17)

“T8 claims there is a quantitative state of 'gods' and is attempting to use John 6:70 to bolster his premise. But when we examine his example to see if it exemplifies what he claims, WE SEE THAT IT DOES NOT!”

Stop trying to change the subject Ed J.
I have known for sometime that you don't agree that theos can be used qualitatively.

But you said this, so last time for an answer or I will make an example of this on the Hot Seat.

Quote

No it you who doesn't understand, In John 6:70 Jesus was NOT callingJudas 'the devil' nor was Jesus even calling Judas 'a devil'

Which is correct:

1) Your version of this verse
2) The AKJV version of this verse.

Let your yes be yes and no be no.

1 or 2.

You or the AKJV.

Not a hard question. Swallow your pride and answer the question please.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2013,02:17)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,21:53) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 20 2013,00:50) “disrepute?” – more name-calling huh? I see you are still attempting to argue over a misconception. Here is what I actually said: Ed J. Name calling is when you call people names. It is not when you say a person did a silly thing or put himself into disrepute. I disagree

Are you calling me “I disagree”?

You know the rules regarding name calling.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,15:08)

So TWO gods, then?  One of whom was WITH the other?

You won't get a straight answer here Mike, but the answer is clearly yes.

If the Word is God and the Word was WITH God, then God was WITH God which makes two Gods. This is a violation of the first commandment.

Two Gods. Even a kid could see that.

This is why God revealed the truth to babes/innocent. And to those who humble themselves like children. The proud and self-confessed wise end up as fools because they war against God with their wisdom.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2013,05:15)

Hi: I agree with Ed that all the wrangling is because of the presumption that “the Logos” is Jesus. It in fact pertains to him, but he is not “a god” or “God” or “the God”.  He is a man.  Through His Word God has shown us His character.  And so, John 1c should be “God” or “the God”. Love in Christ, Marty

Perhaps you missed it. We know that Ed J disagrees with a qualitative use of the word 'theos”. That is his decision and perhaps your one too.

But Ed J says that the AKJV is the perfect translation sanctioned by God himself leading to English gematria in that translation only.

It also turns out that he also says that Judas is not a devil according to that verse that says, “one of you is a devil”.

Of course he was unaware that he contradicts the AKJV translation of that verse.

And now we cannot get a straight answer out of him concerning this contradiction in his teaching.

If he was humble he would say that he was wrong, or the AKJV translation was wrong on that verse. But pride seems to be winning at the moment. How about you ask him to come clean on this one. Another person might be enough for him to sort this out.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,12:40)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 19 2013,09:15) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2013,17:42) Hi Everyone, All this wrangling is based on the presumption that Jesus (according to the traditions of men) is “The Word”. I agree with Ed that all the wrangling is because of the presumption that “the Logos” is Jesus. What we KNOW for a fact from scripture is that the Word BECAME flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. And only one person in history ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. So I'd say we are holding on to a pretty solid presumption. (And that's without even considering the many other scriptural teachings, such as all things were created through the Word, and all things were created through Jesus………. etc.)

Yes, Mike, The Word, or Logos, that is what God had stated pertaining to Jesus, became a reality, and he dwelt among humanity as the Only Begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth, and revealing the character of the Father through his life. John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The whole of the OT prophesies to the coming of the Messiah:

Quote

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2013,09:16)

Yes, Mike, The Word, or Logos, that is what God had stated pertaining to Jesus, became a reality, and he dwelt among humanity as the Only Begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth, and revealing the character of the Father through his life.  John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So who is the only begotten son in John 1:18 – the one who declared God?

Also, what exactly “became a reality”?  

And what or who “dwelt among humanity as the Only Begotten Son of the Father”?

And finally, you didn't directly answer the question I asked.

Marty, WHO EXACTLY is the only one in history who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 20 2013,02:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2013,15:08) So TWO gods, then? One of whom was WITH the other? You won't get a straight answer here Mike, but the answer is clearly yes. If the Word is God and the Word was WITH God, then God was WITH God which makes two Gods.

Yeah, the last time I checked, 1+1 still equaled 2.

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 20 2013,19:49)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2013,05:15) Hi: I agree with Ed that all the wrangling is because of the presumption that “the Logos” is Jesus. It in fact pertains to him, but he is not “a god” or “God” or “the God”.  He is a man.  Through His Word God has shown us His character.  And so, John 1c should be “God” or “the God”. Love in Christ, Marty Perhaps you missed it. We know that Ed J disagrees with a qualitative use of the word 'theos”. That is his decision and perhaps your one too. But Ed J says that the AKJV is the perfect translation sanctioned by God himself leading to English gematria in that translation only. It also turns out that he also says that Judas is not a devil according to that verse that says, “one of you is a devil”. Of course he was unaware that he contradicts the AKJV translation of that verse. And now we cannot get a straight answer out of him concerning this contradiction in his teaching. If he was humble he would say that he was wrong, or the AKJV translation was wrong on that verse. But pride seems to be winning at the moment. How about you ask him to come clean on this one. Another person might be enough for him to sort this out.

Hi t8:

I indicated that I agreed with Ed that the wrangling done relative to John 1 is based on the presumption that “The Word” is Jesus as a sentient person.

And I believe, that through His Word God demonstrates His character to humanity, and so, the life that someone lives defines who he is. In that way, “the Word is God”. What He says and what He does defines who He is.

I don't agree with Ed that the Holy Spirit is “the Word of God”, and Jesus did not use gematria, and I do not believe that Ed should have to use it to explain the scriptures, and I do believe that Judas was a devil.

I believe that the KJV is the most accurate translation, but there are errors, and additions that have been added to justify the Trinity doctrine.

What Ed does or does not do is between Him and God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Jn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? KJV

Jn 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” NIV

what then does it mean “is a devil”

and which of the two version is the true one ,or more accurate one

[terraricca]

marty

Quote

I indicated that I agreed with Ed that the wrangling done relative to John 1 is based on the presumption that “The Word” is Jesus as a sentient person.

what is an sentient person is their any person in history that was /his an sentient person

[Proclaimer]

Thanks Marty.

[Proclaimer]

Agreed Terr.

[Proclaimer]

If Judas can be a devil and yet there is one who is the Devil (who is Satan), then others can be gods/theos without infringing on the fact that there is one God.

Likewise we are taught that our faith accepts one Spirit. Yet angels who are higher than us for now are ministering spirits.

One faith, one baptism, one Spirit. This does not mean that we do not believe in angels.

Likewise One God and Father of all does not lead us to deny that others are legitimately called theos. And one Father does not mean that we deny Abraham either.

Anyone who does not hear what I am saying here is blind to scripture deaf to the word because all I am doing is showing you scripture. If you refuse it, it is not me you reject, but the one who inspired scripture.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2013,08:47)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2013,09:16) Yes, Mike, The Word, or Logos, that is what God had stated pertaining to Jesus, became a reality, and he dwelt among humanity as the Only Begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth, and revealing the character of the Father through his life.  John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. So who is the only begotten son in John 1:18 – the one who declared God? Also, what exactly “became a reality”?   And what or who “dwelt among humanity as the Only Begotten Son of the Father”? And finally, you didn't directly answer the question I asked. Marty, WHO EXACTLY is the only one in history who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

Hi Mike:

What kind of line of questioning is this? It was Jesus who declared the Father, and it was Jesus who is the “Only Begotten Son”, and He was begotten of the Father in the womb of the virgin Marty, and the prophecies in the OT relative to His being born into this world became a reality when he was born into this world.

Who in history can claim to be “the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD?

And so, the question in your mind seems to be when He was actually begotten of the Father, and that happened when he was begotten of the Father in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Quote

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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