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Hi,
“Sacrament” is another Catholic word, though some of Catholicism's many daughters also use the word which is not found in scripture.H used the concept in another thread
“”Water baptism is the outward symbolic act that occured of the inward baptism by blood that can not be seen.”In catholicism it is applied to the mass, communion, confession, infant baptism and extreme unction [anointing of the dying]etc. It also appoints all the powers of God to be channelled through the priests thus giving them a position of unassailable power over their fearful subjects
So it is teaching that God works in accord with man's desires and not vice versa. Thus it does not require faith to be effective, and so is not of faith but of magic, and scripture says whatever is not of faith is of sin.
It has led to the devotion of many to following rituals and cermonies out of the belief that such activity causes us to be saved.
“Come out of her my people..”
Excuse me nick, it is hard to stay on a specfic topic when I feel a need to understand the times and way Catholicism came into being. I say this in order to give credit where credit is due, while also attempting to show truth over traditions of man.
The Sacrament or partaking of the Lord's table, is of the ways of God and his will, but like any scripture's can become the truth that becomes central to the organization, and set itself out of balance and tune to the true meaning of 'discerning the Lord's body' in its practice.
In my worldveiw, the ego fo man had come of age in his soul-physical nature, around the time of Christ and what ensued. Only a small percent of privileged people could read during this time. Although I believe Christ is a revolutionary in the sense of coming from the bottom-up..the temptations of the ego of man, and its fight to defend what they believed to be the truth, often eclipsed the nature and revelation of who Christ was/is. This is still true today.
Essentially I'd agree with you. I am not sure about what motives behind this thread though. For me, the truth of Christ and Logos is found nearly everywhere and in everything, save for the fact it is often perverted by the ego of man.
Hi jm,
If God had needed us to use the Word “sacrament” He would have put it in the bible. Man developed the Word to vainly try and demonstrate he can control the actions of God.On whether of magic. When partaking, as demonstrated by Jesus himself at the Last Supper, it was to be in rememberance of his flesh and blood he was to soon after give of himself. To discern his giving of his flesh and blood, and what it meant for us..is our salvation. You have to believe it to be so. You have to eat and drink worthily. “This is my body, broken for you”. The ritual is symbolic of something deeper.
I cannot say I studied magic at length, but I have been impressed enough to say, it's founding virtue (if you'll allow me to put it that way) ..is founded upon Will. It seems to be of a perverted nature to the true intentions of Will, in this case God's, but it's like taking the laws and rules of God's true intent, and bending them to make them your own. Independent of.
Because will/Will, and its usage, stems from the spiritual, it is beyond me to know the intent and nature of..when catholics do as they do.
God and man, in the will of God, is not adverse to the desires of man. But fellowships in those desires, provided they are right desires. “If my words abide in you, and you abide in me, ask what you will, and it shall be done”. “Delight yourself in the Lord, and I will give you the desires of your heart”. etc.
In a very real sense, faith is magical. There is nothing new under the sun. Only a perverting of the pure ways of God, of which I think we have a ways to go in order to prove that acceptible and perfect Will of God.
If I am way off here. Please forgive, I just think that we should be careful and learn how to veiw things, instead of pushing an alarmist button about these things that are. Christ is, and Christ ain't goin' anywhere. His business is in uniting heaven and earth, and all things therein, even in himself. Which is truth. That which remains.
then where is the word 'trinity'? there are many words not in the bible, the language of man always developed and evolved.
Quote (jahman @ Sep. 25 2006,02:02) then where is the word 'trinity'? there are many words not in the bible, the language of man always developed and evolved.
Hi jm,
A very good question.
The word 'trinity' is not there because this awkward human contrivance used to explain the nature of God is an insult to God and anathema to faith. It is not of faith as it is not of bible teaching.
It is thus of sin and to be abhored.Hi jm,
“In a very real sense, faith is magical.”We do not follow Simon Magus but Jesus Christ who revealed the ways of God through His powers and not those of magic.
The magicians of the court of the Pharaoh were able to reproduce quite a few of the miracles wrought through Moses so there is occult power. But we abhor magic to follow Christ as Simon should have done.All the devil has is a perversion of power and perversion of truth. The devil has not created a thing. He can only pervert, through the maniplative ego of the laws of what already exists.
Thus, Simon Magus and like-company, have learned to use certain laws to their own advantage, and not for God's glory.
Hijm,
And man, under the influence of the god of this world, would try to limit and confine God in theological boxes like trinity and sacraments thereby insulting the divine Majesty.Hi,
Sacraments are the extreme of tradition.
They show rituals as being effective without the necessity of faith.
This sort of approach exposes human religion as not requiring the involvement of God.
The whore is associated in scripture with red and purple, man and religion, without the BLUE of God.[see the construction of the Jewish temple in Exodus]
Same thing.Hi,
Eucharist is one of the catholic sacraments.Their belief is that the bread and wine IS Jesus. So they worship the bread and wine and then share it in the mystical and gnostic thought that it enables their eternal unity with Jesus himself.
Nick……….some teach that the wine turn to Jesus' blood and the bread turns to His actual flesh, if that not cannibalistic i don't know what is. While it does say we are to take Jesus flesh and blood to our selves by the word (EAT) that is symbolic language, not literal eating it, but applying His sacrifice to ourselves.IMO
peace to you…………gene
Hi CA,
You speak of sacraments.
These rituals are given magic abilities to transform people.Such is not of faith and what is not of faith is of sin.
Every pagan religion loves such fantasies but we know salvation in Jesus is not of our useless works.
Catholic rituals have much in common with any form of ceremonial magic, they work on the same principals. Psychologists would say their purpose is to stimulate the unconscious areas of our minds and elicit responses thereof. In this they can be very effective and results thereof be mistaken as outside forces at work when in all probability the forces evoked are entirely internal.
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