Sabbath

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,23:55)

kejonn

You say…

Quote

Now wouldn't you think that the one who made the new covenant would say that the Sabbath was abolished rather than answer the way he did? Yet he did not. He instead showed us how to do well on the Sabbath, just as he showed us how to truly adhere to he other commandments. And if the Sabbath was no longer important, why this?

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.

“And as was his custom”? Didn't Yeshau come to change things in the new covenant? Then why would going to the synagogue on the Sabbath be part of his custom? If he would have abolished the Sabbath, this would be the time. Yet he continued on!

This is a fallacous argument. Jesus was under the law and had to fullfill all rightouesness untill he was crucified. He did this at the start of his ministry. But there is no other mention of him going in the Synagogue to teach on the Sabbath after this.

And your argument is even more fallacious. Show me where Yeshua spoke with anyone who was not a disciple after the resurrection! The personal public ministry of Christ ended on the tree. He commissioned his disciples to carry on the ministry after the resurrection. And lo and behold, we find in Acts that they continued to go into the synagogue on the Sabbath.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

So if the disciples where to continue on with what Yeshua taught, show me where he taught others to drop the commandments of God. Show me where he taught that the sabbath was no longer valid.

Quote

Rom 8:
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the *requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us*, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The fact that you keep coming back to similar passages tells me that you are still not seeing what I am pointing out, both here and in the covenants thread. Its not about condemnation or seeking righteousness. Its about loving God and loving people. And there are many. many places that the NT says that we love God if we keep His commandments.

Not righteousness, not condemnation, but love WJ. Love of God.

Quote

Gal 5:
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (which he classifys is the law of the Spirit of life in Rom 8:2)
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Why do you only look to Paul and not balance his teaching with Yeshua's? Why do you never go to the Mater's words bu instead rely solely upon Paul?

1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Quote

You say…

Quote

If you say you are a Christian, you are “Christlike”, right? Then if the Savior made it is custom to teach and worship on the Sabbath, why do so many want to be unlike the Savior in this capacity?

Did Jesus only worship on the Sabbath? Where do you see he worshipped in the text anyway?

Since going to the Synagogue to teach and worship on the Sabbath as you say makes us “Christlike”, then when is the last time you went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath to teach and to worship?

To be like him should we only just worship on the Sabbath?

Yeshua worked every day. Yet he went into the synagogue every Sabbath. He didn't stop going. He could have stopped that and instead
waited for the people to come out and teach them outside of the synagogue but he went into them as was his custom. Was Yeshua subject to habits or was his custom doing the will of God?

And your statement “when was the last time you wnet into the synagogue” is made of straw. There were no Gentile churches in Yeshua's time WJ. You know that. But since the disciples were to go to the nations, what of this?

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Look WJ, no synagogue! But we start to see that people were gathering outside of the synagogue in this verse. And on what day? Read it and you'll know. These women showed that the Sabbath was the day for corporate worship.

October 7, 2007 at 3:22 pm#67768

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2007,04:27)

Laurel

You say…

Quote

did address this a couple post ago, but I will again so you can see it for yourself.

The verses you posted is how Messiah explained what it would be like at judgment.

No. The parable of Lazarus and the richman has nothing to do with the judgment in the end.

Lk 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 **And in hell** he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Both “Died” and was buried and Lazarus went to Abrahams bosom (the Fathers) and the rich man went to hell.

How about this…

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar **the souls** of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This clearly shows that those who died in Christ were conscience and aware of the place they were in.

And you didnt address Paul saying…

2 Cor 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Jesus said whoever believes in him will “Never die”.

Jn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Whoever believes in him “Has Eternal life!

And what of this…

Matt 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (Was Yeshua talking to a vision?)
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

WJ,
Hell=Sheol=grave=tomb=sepulchure

And YES, it is about judgment.

Gethsemane is final death. It is a place whwere the withered branches are cast into the fire and burned up.

As for the rest of your post. I can't show you, until you understand first things first, then actually, like KJ, you will not need to be shown, because you will have eyes to see, and ears to hear. The Spirit will be your only teacher.

Laurel

October 8, 2007 at 4:36 pm#67840

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

And your argument is even more fallacious. Show me where Yeshua spoke with anyone who was not a disciple after the resurrection! The personal public ministry of Christ ended on the tree. He commissioned his disciples to carry on the ministry after the resurrection. And lo and behold, we find in Acts that they continued to go into the synagogue on the Sabbath.

At least you admit yours is fallacous!
So you think Christ only spoke to and showed himself to the eleven after his resurrection?

What about the woman like Mary at the tomb? What about these witnesses…

Lk 24:
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
33 33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together,[b] and them that were with them,

1 Cor 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

I don’t understand the point here but he was seen by many after his ressurection.

As far as him commanding them to carry out his ministry this is what he said…

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mk16:
15 And he said unto them,Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

Do you see any mention of the Sabbath? The closest thing you have is he says “to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”. Yet again, we find Jesus never mentioning the Sabbath as a commandment from him in the beatitudes, the sermon on the mount or anywhere. All you have is inference. Its amazing to me that Trinitarians get drilled for this kind of Hermeneutics. Yet now you read into the scriptures something that is not written.

You say…

Quote

Show me where Yeshua said anything like “Now that the new covenant has been sealed with my blood, you can tell people that God commandments are abolished”. Show me where he said something like “You don't need to go into the synagogue anymore. The God of Israel is now the God of all the world so the Sabbath is no longer valid”. But wait, what DID he say after the resurrection
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Yes, did you notice he says “teaching them to observe all that *I* have commanded you.
He didn’t say all things Moses said unto you. Then we would still be oferring up sacrifices and keeping the feast. Where is Yeshua’s commandment to keep the physical Sabbath, or the feast or blood offerings? Its all part of the Old Covenant. The law was fulfilled in him. Jesus again showed us a higher law, and gave us New Commandments. And spoke of a different Kingdom which is not of this world. And as far as the synagogues Jesus was saying good bye to the Temple because after his fulfillment of the law there would be a New Temple not made with mans hands.
Where 2 or 3 are gathered there am I in the midst. Synagogues, churchs, are merely gathering places for the true church.

You say…

Quote

Show me where he said something like “You don't need to go into the synagogue anymore.

What are you preaching to me for. I believe the modern day churchs are the synagogues. Yes the synagogues of Jesus day was full of hypocrites, Pharasees and Saducess, but like you said they continued preaching and teaching in the synagogues. So what about that? All these people that you see leaving churchs today going out and ceasing to meet with the saints simply because they don’t agree with them.

Then they take on holier that thou attitudes.I believe I follow closer to Jesus and the Apostles example by going into the modern day synagogues.

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

What day for assembling? Well it should be everyday. But we have examples of the Apostles also meeting on Sundays…

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Cor 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come

We also have many of the early church Fathers doing the same thing. I am not aware of any writings by the early church fathers commanding the brethren to keep the 7th day.

You say…

Quote

And before you say “Well, he never commanded them to keep the Sabbath”, he did. Its called by example AND by emphasizing the commandments. And the continued in that example by continuing to enter the synagogue on the Sabbath. Here is what he taught them, what they were to teach others.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Since when does an example become a commandment. Nevertheless, you left out some important verses in the text.
Vrs 17 says…

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

What was the law and the prophets. Sabbaths, feast, ceremonies, sacrifices, commandments. Jesus fulfilled them and brought us a better covenant.

Heb 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
(It hasnt disapeared yet because their are Jews that are still under the law who havnt come to Christ)

He said “It is finished”. He nailed the handwriting of ordinances against us to the tree. He is not telling us to break the law but teaching us of a higher law, for he says in verse 20 on the other side of your quote…

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then the rest of the chapter of Matt 19 Jesus gives us the higher law. Should we go back to hating our brother because as long as we don’t kill him then we are not breaking the law? Should we go back to lusting after our neighbors wife because as long as we don’t go to bed with her we are not committing adultery?

Neither should we go back to a physical Sabbath rest when our rest is in Christ. Why limit one day to worship and devotion when Jesus said “take up your cross and follow me”.

The thing is if you want to keep the Sabbath then do it. But don’t try to force the law on me by making me feel that I am somehow not pleasing God or obeying his word simply because I choose to rest in him daily and seek him daily being filled with the fruit of the Spirit daily… “for against such there is no law”.

You say…

Quote

So if the disciples where to continue on with what Yeshua taught, show me where he taught others to drop the commandments of God. Show me where he taught that the sabbath was no longer valid.

Its back to you. I have shown you where the law is of the Old Covenant and that the New Covenant is a higher law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Cor 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of *the letter* but of the Spirit; for the *letter kills*, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, *in letters engraved on stones*, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

You say…

Quote

Not righteousness, not condemnation, but love WJ. Love of God.

Again, “HIS commandments Yeshuas commandments are laid out in the gospels.

As far as love, I don’t feel any, especially from GB, Laural, and kenrch. Interesting these are the ones that promote the keeping of the physical Sabbath as law that we must keep or we are breaking the commandments of God.

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

You say…

Quote

Why do you only look to Paul and not balance his teaching with Yeshua's? Why do you never go to the Mater's words bu instead rely solely upon Paul?
1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Because Jesus never commanded to keep the 7th day Sabbath, in fact he said he was the Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. You should take Pauls words seriously for he says…

Gal 1:6
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

So the words of Paul are the words of Yeshua. The book of Galations was written to address the problem of Judaizers trying to bring them under the law by adding to the Gospel of Grace.

Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Again you want to keep the law, that is up to you. I will not judge you.

My rest is in Christ.

You say…

Quote

Yeshua worked every day. Yet he went into the synagogue every Sabbath. He didn't stop going. He could have stopped that and instead waited for the people to com
e out and teach them outside of the synagogue but he went into them as was his custom. Was Yeshua subject to habits or was his custom doing the will of God?

So then do it. I find no other requirement but to seek the Kingdom of God first and to be filled with his spirit daily, and daily worshipping him in the true Temple which is my Body where he lives.

You say…

Quote

See above.

You quote…

Quote

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Yes and I have shown you where the Apostles met on Sundays and also every day for that matter. Again the early Fathers didn’t command the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath either.

You say…

Quote

See above. “Corporate worship”? How many who come to this sight are involved in “corporal worship?

Ps 27:4
One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.

Even David wanted to dwell in Gods presence all the days of his life. With the Spirit of God living in us we now have that liberty. Our rest is in him.

October 8, 2007 at 5:12 pm#67842

Participant

My rest is in Jesus because I have forgiveness of sin and walk in the Spirit.

So because Jesus died for me can I break His Father's commandments?

If you walk according to flesh then you cannot keep the commandments. We CAN as long as we walk according to the Spirit keep His Commandments as it is COMMANDED.

This from the apostle of the Gentiles:

Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

1Jo 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

There are TEN Commandments. The RCC changed the forth commandment AND SHE WIIL TELL YOU SO those who do not keep the seventh day Sabbath of God then follow the RCC. Because Jesus' people follow her they are IN HER and NEED to come out, Rev. 18:4.

Here is the whole matter WHO are you going to follow. The RCC… and make no mistake she is the Mother of harlots. OR your Creator who rested on and made holy the seventh day then COMMANDED that we keep His Sabbath.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love,…. that we walk after his commandments….. This is the commandment,… That, as ye have …heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

**WJ are you saying that you reject and will not keep the forth commandment of God?**

Come out of Her. Come out of her WJ. PLEASE

October 8, 2007 at 7:20 pm#67847

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2007,11:36)

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

At least you admit yours is fallacous!

It does appear that way, but it was not my intention ;p.

Quote

So you think Christ only spoke to and showed himself to the eleven after his resurrection?

No, read above. I said “his disciples” not his Apostles. Yeshua had developed quite a following and had many disciples.

Quote

What about the woman like Mary at the tomb? What about these witnesses…

Notice in v13 it says “two of them”. Yeshua was appearing to his followers because they were to be the ones to carry out his ministry. His Apostles were the leaders, but he still had many disciples who were willing to continue his ministry. So his focus after his resurrection was to equip them to carry on.

What I tried to show you is that he made no public appearances to those who had not previously come to know and follow him. Can you show otherwise?

Quote

Five hundred what? “Brethren”. That means those who had come to know and follow him! So again, no public appearances to unbelievers.

Quote

I don’t understand the point here but he was seen by many after his ressurection.

As far as him commanding them to carry out his ministry this is what he said…

No, no mention of the Sabbath. He included that when it says “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you”. And what did he tell them? “If you will enter life, keep the commandments.”

He didn’t reiterate the greatest two commandments after the resurrection, so I suppose those were abolished as well? Or any of the Sermon on the Mount? Or just about anything he said prior to his death that he didn’t restate after the resurrection?

Quote

You say…

Quote

Yes, did you notice he says “teaching them to observe all that *I* have commanded you.
He didn’t say all things Mo
ses said unto you. Then we would still be oferring up sacrifices and keeping the feast. Where is Yeshua’s commandment to keep the physical Sabbath, or the feast or blood offerings? Its all part of the Old Covenant. The law was fulfilled in him. Jesus again showed us a higher law, and gave us New Commandments. And spoke of a different Kingdom which is not of this world. And as far as the synagogues Jesus was saying good bye to the Temple because after his fulfillment of the law there would be a New Temple not made with mans hands.
Where 2 or 3 are gathered there am I in the midst. Synagogues, churchs, are merely gathering places for the true church.

Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Quote

You say…

Quote

Show me where he said something like “You don't need to go into the synagogue anymore.

Then they take on holier that thou attitudes.I believe I follow closer to Jesus and the Apostles example by going into the modern day synagogues.

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

What day for assembling? Well it should be everyday. But we have examples of the Apostles also meeting on Sundays…

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

They were gathered for a meal and Paul had an opportunity to preach to who? The disciples. What of public ministry?

And as to the other, yes, I will not go to a church where they preach Jesus is God because I do not agree. I can spend time with these people in other venues, but I will not go among them for church because I respect their right to believe as they wish. I will not sow discord because I do not believe as they do. We can disagree here because we come of our own free will and can leave any time, but my beliefs would not be welcome in another church. I was already told as much right before I left my last church.

Quote

1 Cor 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come

This has absolutely nothing to do with Sabbath or worship.

Quote

We also have many of the early church Fathers doing the same thing. I am not aware of any writings by the early church fathers commanding the brethren to keep the 7th day.

That is because the early church fathers were from Gentiles who were wishing to separate themselves from Jews. What a shame too since their Messiah was a Jew. There is quite a bit of evidence that many churches outside of Rome and the immediate area continued to keep the Sabbath hundreds of years past the death of Christ.

So if the early fathers did this, by what authority did they do it? No Biblical authority, and certainly no Apostle told them so. They took it upon themselves to change the day.

Quote

You say…

Quote

Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Since when does an example become a commandment. Nevertheless, you left out some important verses in the text.
Vrs 17 says…

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fulfill does not mean to abolish, end, or do away with. The CEV gives you a clearer understanding

Mat 5:17 Don't suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.

Here are some others

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
“Don't ever think that I came to set aside Moses' Teachings or the Prophets. I didn't come to set them aside but to make them come true.
Tyndale New Testament
Ye shall not think, that I am come to disannul the law, other the prophets: no I am not come to disannul them, but to fulfil them.

Quote

What was the law and the prophets. Sabbaths, feast, ceremonies, sacrifices, commandments. Jesus fulfilled them and brought us a better covenant.

Better by annulling the old, or better by revising the old? As you see above, the answer is the latter.

Quote

I think you need to read on into ch 9 to get the full context. It speaks of Christ’s role as High Priest and mediator, and that is the change in the New Covenant. That is what made the old obsolete. What you are trying to say is the new co
venant is a “let’s sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya” covenant. That is, God made it so we can serve Him in any way we feel led. At least you know why there are so many denominations, eh? Man’s way of pleasing God when they could read His Bible and know the true way.

And what of this verse?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

What laws would He be writing in our minds and hearts? A new one? One that is contrary to the old? That is the other “new” part – no longer written on stone but in our minds and hearts. But only if the heart itself is not made of stone…

Quote

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

You are STILL missing the point WJ! You are so dead set against the Sabbath that you cannot see anything but being under the law if you actually find out what pleases God. Its like “whoah, old testament, must be bad”. I think you know what Paul told Timothy about scripture? And it was only the OT when he wrote that.

It is not about the physical keeping of any of God’s commandments. Yeshua taught us that! But you act as if you only need the Holy Spirit to grow, and that the OT is just an old book that needs to sit on the shelf. You are missing out on so much.

Quote

Neither should we go back to a physical Sabbath rest when our rest is in Christ. Why limit one day to worship and devotion when Jesus said “take up your cross and follow me”.

Again, you gloss over what I have been saying time and time again. I can only believe that it is because you are so set against the Sabbath being Saturday that you will struggle against it no matter the cost. Its not about one day. Its about THE day that God gave His people. And yes, the people he gave it to are Israelites. But the Sabbath does not identify the Jews, the Sabbath identifies God. It is HIS day. That is the difference. And like I said, it is not about righteousness or condemnation, but about seeking to please God.

Quote

I cannot force a single thing upon you. What you do is between yourself and God. I’m merely trying to convey to you that discovering what pleases God and doing those things will only improve your relationship with Him. If you are satisfied where you are in your walk, then be happy. I’m personally not. My number one priority is to please my God, so I will seek out those things that please Him. My purpose here is to encourage others to continue on the journey to know God.

Quote

You say…

Quote

So if the disciples where to continue on with what Yeshua taught, show me where he taught others to drop the commandments of God. Show me where he taught that the sabbath was no longer valid.

You say…

Quote

Not righteousness, not condemnation, but love WJ. Love of God.

Again, “HIS commandments Yeshuas commandments are laid out in the gospels.

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You say…

Quote

Gal 1:6
I am astonished tha
t you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

So the words of Paul are the words of Yeshua. The book of Galations was written to address the problem of Judaizers trying to bring them under the law by adding to the Gospel of Grace.

My rest is in Christ.

You say…

Quote

Yeshua worked every day. Yet he went into the synagogue every Sabbath. He didn't stop going. He could have stopped that and instead waited for the people to come out and teach them outside of the synagogue but he went into them as was his custom. Was Yeshua subject to habits or was his custom doing the will of God?

So then do it. I find no other requirement but to seek the Kingdom of God first and to be filled with his spirit daily, and daily worshipping him in the true Temple which is my Body where he lives.

You say…

Quote

See above.

You quote…

Quote

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Yes and I have shown you where the Apostles met on Sundays and also every day for that matter. Again the early Fathers didn’t command the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath either.

You say…

Quote

See above. “Corporate worship”? How many who come to this sight are involved in “corporal worship?

Ps 27:4
One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.

Even David wanted to dwell in Gods presence all the days of his life. With the Spirit of God living in us we now have that liberty. Our rest is in him.

With this, I will bow out. I have shown you what I believe and now I leave the rest to you and God.

October 8, 2007 at 8:49 pm#67858

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kejonn …..> show me where i used the sabbath in a unloving way. I have defended Mandy and others when Ken, and Laurel used condesending remarks toward others. I have never cramed the Sabbath on anyone but have always tried to show the greater
Spiritual side of the Sabbath. It would upset me when I saw orthers use it malicoiusly. Go back and read some of my earlier posts and see if i did not shown love, and care for people who were coming into an understanding of the Sabbath. Even to a point when Ken called me a hyprocrite for not joining him in his assaults on Mandy and others. I feel quite disappointed by what you have said. I would like to ask you what kind of love are you expressing by saying that……blessings..gene

October 8, 2007 at 9:04 pm#67859

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2007,15:49)

Where did I say anything against you bro?

October 8, 2007 at 9:41 pm#67861

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

kejonn

I will say this then I am done then I also bow out.

You say…

Quote

You are correct, it is not about the physical keeping of the commandments. I have never said we should not keep the commanments. You apparenatly are not listening. I am saying that the Pasover, the feast, the law, the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ who is our Passover. The day of Penticost became our first fruits when we recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The laws were raised to a higher law “Thou shalt not commit adultery etc.

If we dont need to keep the feast, the passover, the levitical laws, then why just the physical Sabbath which was also a part of that law, that Covenant?

I believe I am keeping the Sabbath and the feast and the passover by trusting in Yeshua and resting in him. I have never implied that we dont need the OT scriptures for they are the schoolmaster to teach us of Christ who is the end of the Law for those who believe in him.

Blessings!

October 8, 2007 at 10:12 pm#67869

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kejonn…..> forgive me brother, it was on Oct, 8, 2007….11:36….> I went back and checked it out and it looks like you were Quoting WJ, and I would expect that from Him.
Sorry brother….please forgive me…..gene

October 8, 2007 at 10:33 pm#67871

Mr. Steve

Participant

To all;

Why did God create the sabbath? Did he create man for the sabbath or the sabbath for man? The sabbath in the New Testament is a conscience issue, not sound doctrine.

It is very insightful to the character of the Jews that they would rather a man continued to suffer and die rather than to any work on the sabbath. Jesus said they were hypocrites in this regard, too. It also shows how hard up they were to find something wrong with Christ. Not because they loved God, but because they were losing control. Ciaphas even said it's no use the whole world is following him. When the priests went to the soldiers and asked them why they hadn't arrested Christ, the soldiers responded, never a man spake like this man. Even the Roman soldiers were falling in love with Jesus.

Steven

October 9, 2007 at 1:07 am#67880

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 09 2007,10:33)

To all;

Why did God create the sabbath? Did he create man for the sabbath or the sabbath for man? The sabbath in the New Testament is a conscience issue, not sound doctrine.

Steven

The Sabbath is the forth “commandment” of God.

Do you break any of the other nine commandments?

Faith without works is “dead”.

What good would it be if you were “saved” but continued to murder steal ETC?

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

God wrote TEN Commandments and added no more. Deu. 5:22.

Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

Why do you keep nine? Because you were taught that Sunday was the “Lord's Day” because He was resurrected on the first day….Was HE?

God doesn't want you to keep HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS?

SCRIPTURE SAYS:

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Steve are you rejecting and refuse to keep the forth commandment of GOD?

God bless and help us,

Ken

October 9, 2007 at 1:36 am#67883

Participant

Ken,

At first (on here) I wanted to reject the Sabbath too because I had a problem with the way you were “teaching” us. But thank God, I looked past that and saw your passion. And I realized what the 10 Commandments were all about: a very, very simple set of examples of what pleases our Father. If I can't set one day aside for Him, what does that say of my dedication to Him? Is my God a “pocket God” or my first love?

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 9, 2007 at 2:15 am#67886

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:36)

Ken,

LG&LP,
Kevin

Kevin,

I understand that you want to keep the commandments because you love the LORD, SO DO I! But I must point out scripture that says the Sabbath IS the forth commandment of God and IF we love Him (as the scriptureS says) then we keep His commandments.

Would Jesus want anyone to NOT keep His Father's commandments? IMHO you don't need scripture to figure that one out.

BUT because we were taught by the RCC. The one who SAYS that there is NO scripture saying that the Sabbath was changed to the first day.
It is rooted in us, some more than others.

Why would it be hard to believe that the RCC would do that when most on this site believe their is NO Trinity BUT a LIE.
Does anyone believe that the RCC would stop at one lie?

No one can make (NOR WOULD I WANT TOO) anyone obey God. The Father won't “make” you obey Him we have a free choice.

I cannot emphasize this enough we are at the end and NOW is the time to come out of Her.

Please ask come out of WHO? How are we in “her”?

Again these are “Christians” these are Believers in Christ as HE says “MY PEOPLE”, Rev 18:4.

God bless all,

Ken

October 9, 2007 at 4:50 am#67890

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2007,04:36)

Kejonn

You say…

Quote

At least you admit yours is fallacous!
So you think Christ only spoke to and showed himself to the eleven after his resurrection?

What about the woman like Mary at the tomb? What about these witnesses…

I don’t understand the point here but he was seen by many after his ressurection.

As far as him commanding them to carry out his ministry this is what he said…

You say…

Quote

You say…

Quote

Show me where he said something like “You don't need to go into the synagogue anymore.

Then they take on holier that thou attitudes.I believe I follow closer to Jesus and the Apostles example by going into the modern day synagogues.

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

What day for assembling? Well it should be everyday. But we have examples of the Apostles also meeting on Sundays…

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Cor 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come

We also have many of the early church Fathers doing the same thing. I am not aware of any writings by the early churc
h fathers commanding the brethren to keep the 7th day.

You say…

Quote

Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Since when does an example become a commandment. Nevertheless, you left out some important verses in the text.
Vrs 17 says…

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

What was the law and the prophets. Sabbaths, feast, ceremonies, sacrifices, commandments. Jesus fulfilled them and brought us a better covenant.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Neither should we go back to a physical Sabbath rest when our rest is in Christ. Why limit one day to worship and devotion when Jesus said “take up your cross and follow me”.

You say…

Quote

So if the disciples where to continue on with what Yeshua taught, show me where he taught others to drop the commandments of God. Show me where he taught that the sabbath was no longer valid.

You say…

Quote

Not righteousness, not condemnation, but love WJ. Love of God.

Again, “HIS commandments Yeshuas commandments are laid out in the gospels.

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You say…

Quote

So the words of Paul are the words of Yeshua. The book of Galations was written to address the problem of Judaizers trying to bring them under the law by adding to the Gospel of Grace.

My rest is in Christ.

You say…

Quote

Yeshua worked every day. Yet he went into the synagogue every Sabbath. He didn't stop going. He could have stopped that and instead waited for the people to come out and teach them outside of the synagogue but he went into them as was his custom. Was Yeshua subject to habits or was his custom doing the will of God?

So then do it. I find no other requirement but to seek the Kingdom of God first and to be filled with his spirit daily, and daily worshipping him in the true Temple which is my Body where he lives.

You say…

Quote

See above.

You quote…

Quote

Act 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Yes and I have shown you where the Apostles met on Sundays and also every day for that matter. Again the early Fathers didn’t command the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath either.

You say…

Quote

See above. “Corporate worship”? How many who come to this sight are involved in “corporal worship?

Ps 27:4
One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.

Even David wanted to dwell in Gods presence all the days of his life. With the Spirit of God living in us we now have that liberty. Our rest is in him.

WJ,
I was really wondering , do you really worship Jesus?

If you do then you would follow Him. Copy the things He did while He was with us as an example.

You would never doubt that He taught “exactly” what His Father taught. The two are on the same page.

You would know that Moses was a friend of YHWH, face to face, and wrote the things YHWH commanded Him to.

Moses words are not his but our Father in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeshua and the deciples taught the Torah and the prophets.

He and His Father are one. Supporting one another 100% always and forever!!!

Laurel

October 9, 2007 at 5:12 am#67891

Participant

Quoting KJ to WJ,It is not about the physical keeping of any of God’s commandments. Yeshua taught us that! But you act as if you only need the Holy Spirit to grow, and that the OT is just an old book that needs to sit on the shelf. You are missing out on so much.

My response.
The OT is the Spirit, and if you can't learn from it, you do not have the Spirit “in you.”

Yes it is about keeping His laws. The difference is that keeping those laws do not erase the sins we commit. The only covering for them is Y'shua blood. Our works do not make us righteous, for we are all guilty and deserve death!

We keep the commands, out of fear, love, respect, reverence, worship, thanksgiving, honor, to Him who Created us, and sent His Son to show us the Way.

Lastly, if everyday was the Sabbath rest, when would we tend to our families, our jobs, our houses, our friends? He only wants one day, Set-apart to Him. We rest, we worship, we humble ourselves, and remove ourselves from the world completely on that day, the Sabbath.

People who say can have a Sabbath every day are liars. When would the car get washed? When would we shop? When would we till the garden? We have 6 days a week to do this stuff. Some can't even give one day a week of their time, but they claim, they give every day. Ha Ha Ha!!!

I pray daily, I read Scripture daily, I am in the Spirit with Him daily, but it's different, because all those other days He is there for me. On the Sabbath I am there for Him.

October 9, 2007 at 5:29 am#67892

Participant

In finality, the New Covenant is more strict where the law is concerned, than the Old Covenant. Why, because now it is written on our hearts, we have the Spirit of truth to guide us, we have NO EXCUSE!

I pray for everyone here, that we will all hear the Spirit of Truth, so that we can go out and make more fishers of men.

Even if we are not all on the same level of knowledge, we are supposed to respect those who do have m ore understanding. Who should we believe? The ones who say keep the commandments? OR the one who say it is not necessary?

The real question should be, How do we keep the commandments in this sick and perverse world? How do we stand firm? How do we rebuke sinners in a loving way, which will lead them to the truth? We are stuck on baby formula, and we should be devouring the meat!

So I pray once again for everyone here whom I love, and that is all of you, that we will hear the Spirit of truth, for it will set us free!

Laurel

October 9, 2007 at 7:15 am#67901

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 09 2007,17:12)

but it's different, because all those other days He is there for me. On the Sabbath I am there for Him.

…..On the Sabbath I am there for Him……

Got it.

This past Saturday I enjoyed a Sabbath with the LORD. I actually took a 2 hour nap in the middle of the day! Can you believe that? It was the most glorious nap I've ever taken.

October 9, 2007 at 7:21 am#67902

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 09 2007,17:29)

The real question should be, How do we keep the commandments in this sick and perverse world? How do we stand firm?

For those of us who are keeping Saturday Sabbath, and for those of us who are beginning our Sabbath rest…..let's talk about HOW to keep the commandments in this world?

A good topic may be: Ideas on Keeping the Sabbath. Here we can delve into the meatier things. I'm ready to move on. I can see that the Seventh Day is the Sabbath, and that we are to keep it (physically/spiritually).

How do we stand firm?

October 9, 2007 at 11:46 am#67913