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Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,07:49) Quote Besides there is no scripture that says Jesus rose on the Sabbath. There is more evidence Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Why would he wait a day to appear to the desciples? 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;That's what Jesus did until Mary found the tomb Empty!
WJ you need to “forget ” all what the RCC's daughters have taught you and start listening to scripture.
It's all clear and plain IF you forget what the Harlot has taught the world. And continues to decieve the “Many”.
She deceives the “whole world”.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
WJ at one time or another everyone who seachers the truth comes to the realization that we have been lied too. And now that the end is near the truth is being reavealed. AND so AGAIN the call goes out “come out of her MY People”.
Search the scriptures search your heart and submit.
God bless,
Ken
kenrchJesus was in the belly of the earth preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient.
1 Peter 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,08:29) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,07:49) Quote Besides there is no scripture that says Jesus rose on the Sabbath. There is more evidence Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Why would he wait a day to appear to the desciples? 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;That's what Jesus did until Mary found the tomb Empty!
WJ you need to “forget ” all what the RCC's daughters have taught you and start listening to scripture.
It's all clear and plain IF you forget what the Harlot has taught the world. And continues to decieve the “Many”.
She deceives the “whole world”.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
WJ at one time or another everyone who seachers the truth comes to the realization that we have been lied too. And now that the end is near the truth is being reavealed. AND so AGAIN the call goes out “come out of her MY People”.
Search the scriptures search your heart and submit.
God bless,
Ken
kenrchJesus was in the belly of the earth preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient.
1 Peter 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Seems that the Lord was “quickened by the Spirit” Made alive.
He laid in the tomb for three days and three nights. He was “dead” three days and three nights.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,08:29) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,07:49) Quote Besides there is no scripture that says Jesus rose on the Sabbath. There is more evidence Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Why would he wait a day to appear to the desciples? 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;That's what Jesus did until Mary found the tomb Empty!
WJ you need to “forget ” all what the RCC's daughters have taught you and start listening to scripture.
It's all clear and plain IF you forget what the Harlot has taught the world. And continues to decieve the “Many”.
She deceives the “whole world”.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
WJ at one time or another everyone who seachers the truth comes to the realization that we have been lied too. And now that the end is near the truth is being reavealed. AND so AGAIN the call goes out “come out of her MY People”.
Search the scriptures search your heart and submit.
God bless,
Ken
kenrchJesus was in the belly of the earth preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient.
1 Peter 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Seems that the Lord was “quickened by the Spirit” Made alive.
He laid in the tomb for three days and three nights. He was “dead” three days and three nights.
kMatt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Was Jonah dead?
Lk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.Jesus soul/spirit was in hell like Jonah. What do you believe in the Catholics soul sleep doctrine?
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8.
Jesus said to the theif on the cross “This day you will be with me in parodise”.
Eph 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.The Eternal Spirit of Jesus did not die. He is was the ressurection and the life.
But this is another subject. Jesus was ressurected on Sunday. The first day of the week. Not on the Sabbath.
WJ,
I'm following you and Ken…..I have a question for you (I know it's off subject, but hey, sometimes you have to grab it when you can):
If Jesus never died, how can he be the “firstfruits” from the dead? Jesus may have an “eternal spirit” but we do not, and we will die. How can we follow him in *death* and resurrection if in fact Jesus never truly died? Thanks.
Hi All.
Here is some information from the early church Fathers concerning the Sabbath and the early Christian Church followers practice.
THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS AND THE SABBATH
Forward and Introduction
As many of our visitors will know, I came out of a seventh day sabbath observance group many years ago.
I have long wanted to get an article out about the errors of the seventh day sabbath approach, but time to put together the in-depth look at the subject has not been forthcoming. However, my good internet friend, Rolaant McKenzie (once a Seventh Day Adventist), has written a lot on this subject, as has our ex-Seventh Day Baptist friend, Tom Warner. Here Rolaant looks at a particular aspect of this question; the mis-information about the Edicts of Constatine which is rife among seventh day people. So I commend this article to our readers (as I do the Tom Warner article, 'Confessions of a Sabbath-Keeper')
Robin A. Brace, 2002.Some Sabbatarian Christians maintain that the Catholic Church changed the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday, starting with a Sunday law enacted by Constantine the Great (306-337 A.D.) in 321 A.D. The assumption here is that Constantine put into place a religious law. But Constantine did not enact a Christian law, but a civil one. He could not have been a Catholic, since the Catholic Church as was known during the Reformation period was not even formally organized until several centuries later. It is even doubtful that he was even a Christian, though some make that claim. Christians by this time were already meeting together for worship on the first day of the week. Many, if not most, had been doing so for at least a couple centuries before Constantine arrived on the scene. They did not call this day Sunday, but rather referred to it as the Lord's Day, in honor of Christ's resurrection from the dead.
The claim by the Catholic Church in some of their catechisms that they changed the sanctity of the Sabbath day to Sunday is not evidence that they actually did so. The New Testament does not anywhere make Sunday holy, neither does it make the Sabbath holy. The emphasis had been taken away from the day and placed on Christ, making the observance of particular days no longer necessary. The Catholic Church claims that Peter was the first Pope. It also claims that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a co-regent with Christ in Heaven now. It is doubtful that most Sabbatarian Christians, if any at all, believe this. Why accept what the Catholic Church says regarding transferring the sanctity of the Sabbath day to Sunday, while not believing Peter to be the first Pope, or that Mary is a co-regent with Christ in Heaven? Scripture does not really portray Peter to be the first Pope, neither does it say that Mary currently is a ruler with Jesus in Heaven. She was no more a saint than any other Christian. And history does not support statements by the Catholic Church that they changed the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday. This is an inconsistent argument that fails to make any sense.
The early Christian Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. did not consider the Sabbath day to be a day all Christians were obligated to observe. They gave a different testimony. While the following epistles and statements are not in Scripture and should therefore not be considered canonical, they help to provide useful historical information regarding prevalent beliefs of the early Church in its first centuries.
Ignatius was bishop of Antioch in Syria (c. 1st-2nd century A.D.) and martyred in Rome by beasts (c. 105-116 A.D.). On his way to Rome, he visited and wrote to various churches, warning and exhorting them. He also wrote ahead to Rome to Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna. Ignatius warned the Church against heresies that threatened peace and unity, he opposed Gnosticism and Docetism, and in his Epistle to Smyrna, insisted that Christ came in the flesh not just in spirit.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.)
“Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which “every tongue” believed and “was brought together” to God.” (10)The Epistle of Barnabas was probably not authored by the Barnabas of the New Testament. The writer repudiates the claims of Jewish Christians at the time who advocated adhering to observance of the Mosiac Law. He also argued that Christ provided salvation and man is no longer bound by the Law. This letter compares holy life to unrighteousness.
Epistle of Barnabas 2:4-6 (c. 130 A.D.)
“For He has made it clear to us through all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices nor whole burnt offerings nor general offerings, saying on one occasion: 'What is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?' says the Lord. 'I am full of whole burnt offerings, and I do not want the fat of lambs and blood of bulls and goats, not even if you come to appear before Me. For who demanded these things from your hands? Do not continue to trample My court. If you bring fine flour, it is in vain; incense is detestable to Me; your new moons and sabbaths I cannot stand.' Therefore He has abolished these things, in order that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is free from the yoke of compulsion, might have its offering, one not made by man.”Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9 (c. 130 A.D.)
“Finally, He says to them: 'I cannot bear your new moons and sabbaths.' You see what He means: it is not the present sabbaths that are acceptable to Me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath, after I have set everything at rest, I will create the beginning of an eighth day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven.” (11)The Didache or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles was an 11th century manuscript discovered by Philotheus Bryennois. It consists of various parts, starting with the Two Ways ethical instruction and including community rules for liturgical practices and leadership conduct, before ending with a short apocalyptic section. While some of the material might go back before the year 100 A.D., the current form of the document probabl
y dates to the mid-second century at the earliest.The Didache (or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) 14:1 (c. 70 A.D.)
“On the Lord's own day gather together and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.” (12)The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus (c. 260-339 A.D.) is probably one of the most important works on early Church history available, covering the events of its first three centuries. As one born during the early Church period, Eusebius was an able historian who had a close view of the events that helped shape the historical and theological developments of the early Church.
Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 (c. 315 A.D.)
“For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, neither do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians.” (13)Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 27 (c. 315 A.D.)
“The Ebionites cherished low and mean opinions of Christ. For they considered Him a plain and common man, and justified only by His advances in virtue, and that He was born of the Virgin Mary, by natural generation. With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary, as if they could not be saved, only by faith in Christ and a corresponding life. These, indeed, thought on the one hand that all of the epistles of the apostles ought to be rejected, calling him an apostate from the law, but on the other, only using the gospel according to the Hebrews, they esteem the others as of little value. They also observe the Sabbath and other discipline of the Jews, just like them, but on the other hand, they also celebrate the Lords days very much like us, in commemoration of His resurrection.” (14)Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, Chapter 23 (c. 315 A.D.)
“The churches throughout the rest of the world observe the practice that has prevailed from apostolic tradition until the present time, so that it would not be proper to terminate our fast on any other but the day of the resurrection of our Savior. Hence there were synods and convocations of the bishops on this question; and all unanimously drew up the ecclesiastical decree, which they communicated to all the churches in all places, that the mystery of our Lords resurrection should be celebrated on no other day than the Lords day.” (15)Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (c. 178 A.D.)
“The duty of celebrating the mystery of the resurrection of our Lord may be done only on the day of the Lord.” (16)Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) lived during the reign of Antonius Pius and suffered martyrdom in 165 A.D. during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. He was an enthusiastic evangelist of the Gospel, and after traveling widely throughout the Roman Empire settled in Rome as a Christian teacher. While there, neighboring philosophers plotted against him because of his Christian profession, brought him up before the Roman authorities, who carried out his execution by beheading him.
The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 67
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things … But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.” (17)Some Christians would say that these epistles and statements are unreliable and reflect a general apostasy that was going on in the Church at the time. But this is the Church of which Christ said “the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.” Also, the men who wrote letters such as these to the early Christians were the type of people of whom were spoken in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11:35-40.
Many early Church leaders and followers of Christ such as Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin Martyr, to name a few, suffered severe persecution and eventual martyrdom at the hands of the Romans for spreading the Gospel of Christ. But to keep to the main point, Sabbath-keeping was not a requirement in those days for all Christians, nor was it generally observed. And this was going on long before Constantine the Great enacted his civil Sunday law.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 06 2007,09:17) WJ, I'm following you and Ken…..I have a question for you (I know it's off subject, but hey, sometimes you have to grab it when you can):
If Jesus never died, how can he be the “firstfruits” from the dead? Jesus may have an “eternal spirit” but we do not, and we will die. How can we follow him in *death* and resurrection if in fact Jesus never truly died? Thanks.
not3Jesus died. Just like we all die. But when you die your body dies and your spirit/soul leaves you body and goes to be with Jesus or to the place of waiting sheol/hades.
There are many scriptures to support this. Jesus Soul/Spirit was not left in hell. If he had died Spiritually then he wouldnt have had eternal life which he is the Eternal life.
Also this scripture would make no sence…
Jn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Our bodys are merely a flesh tent or tabernacle or temple that we (Our Spirit/Soul) lives in.
We are Spirit beings who have a soul and live in a body.
Jm 2:22
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.1 Cor chapter 15 is an excellent chapter on this incoruption (our bodys) and how they will change.
Blessings
WJ,
I saw this a couple of times in the Barnabas quotes, but do you understand the message?
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.
I don't know where the Barnabas writer got “sabbaths” because I don't see that in any translation, but note that it says “your new moons” and “your appointed feasts” and not “My”. Thus, God disliked they way they were observing these occassions, so He labeled them “yours”. It has often been said that religion is “man's way of pleasing God”. Well, they tried to do things their own way, and kept at it, until Yeshua was sent to turn it around. It was time to do this God's way, not man's way.
Exo 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Lev 19:3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
Lev 23:2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the LORD that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.
Eze 44:24 In a dispute, they shall act as judges, and they shall judge it according to my judgments. They shall keep my laws and my statutes in all my appointed feasts, and they shall keep my Sabbaths holy.
Yeshua was sent because God had enough of the Jews way of keeping His law. They had made it into their law in the way they kept it.
Whenever God spoke of the Sabbath, whether yearly or weekly, He spoke of having a holy convocation. In otehr words, a gathering. Much like what we call today as “worship”. Therefore, if the Sabbath was well established in the OT, and Christians, both Jew and Gentile, continued to gather on it in the NT, what basis is there in scripture to set aside Sunday as the day of for a holy convocation?
The point I'm making is simple. The Sabbath was already established in the OT. We have no evidence of it being eliminated in the NT. So if Christians are no longer obligated to gather on the Sabbath, why not any day of the week? Why Sunday at all? Why not Tuesday? Friday? Shouldn't we all just decide as a church body what is most convenient for us?
I think we can take “freedom in Christ” a bit too liberally…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,04:40) Hi All! Heres some more information about Yeshua being crucified on Friday and his Ressurection on Sunday.
Understanding the Jewish time system:
Luke 13:32 ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’
Even during the Exodus there is an excellent example of Jewish inclusive time keeping. The Bible says: “The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.” Exodus 19:10-11
Intro: The purpose of this section:The term, three days and three nights is: Absolutely equivalent with “after three days”, “on the third day”, three days later”
The term, three days and three nights: Does not require three literal days and three literal nights.
The term, three days and three nights: Does not require 72 literal hours.
That a Friday crucifixion at 3 PM with at Sunday resurrection at 6 AM would have been considered three days and three nights by the Jewish people of the day.From the mouth of Jesus!
Luke 13:32 ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’
What this proves is that the expression “the third day” represents a literal duration of Friday – Sunday!!! Jesus spoke Lk 12:32 ON A FRIDAY and he entered Jerusalem on a Sunday exactly one week before he died!
This proves, by Jesus own words, that Friday – Sunday = less than 72 hours and that the expression “3 days and 3 nights” is Friday – Sunday!!!
http://www.bible.ca/d-3-days-and-3-nights.htm#IIB
WJ,
You are forgetting “third night” . LookWed night is night one “one complete night” PASSOVER ended at sunset and the High Sabbath Feast of Unleavened Bread began.
Th. Day one and night two. HIGH SABBATH ends at evening
Fr. day two and night three complete. Mary buys spices
Sabbath/weekly and day three complete. “He rose on the third day just before sunset while the guards were sleeping. Also referred to as inbetween the evenings.
Sun. (1st day of the week) while it was still dark Mary comes to the tomb then Y'shua says “Don't touch me for I have not yet ascended to my Father.”
Later when He sees Thomas, He says touch me and put your finger in the hole of my hands, I am real.
Sometime between Mary and Thomas He ascended to heaven and came back!!!
Y'shua, Master of the Sabbath!!!
Laurel
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,09:13) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,08:29) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,07:49) Quote Besides there is no scripture that says Jesus rose on the Sabbath. There is more evidence Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Why would he wait a day to appear to the desciples? 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;That's what Jesus did until Mary found the tomb Empty!
WJ you need to “forget ” all what the RCC's daughters have taught you and start listening to scripture.
It's all clear and plain IF you forget what the Harlot has taught the world. And continues to decieve the “Many”.
She deceives the “whole world”.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
WJ at one time or another everyone who seachers the truth comes to the realization that we have been lied too. And now that the end is near the truth is being reavealed. AND so AGAIN the call goes out “come out of her MY People”.
Search the scriptures search your heart and submit.
God bless,
Ken
kenrchJesus was in the belly of the earth preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient.
1 Peter 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Seems that the Lord was “quickened by the Spirit” Made alive.
He laid in the tomb for three days and three nights. He was “dead” three days and three nights.
kMatt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Was Jonah dead?
Lk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.Jesus soul/spirit was in hell like Jonah. What do you believe in the Catholics soul sleep doctrine?
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8.
Jesus said to the theif on the cross “This day you will be with me in parodise”.
Eph 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.The Eternal Spirit of Jesus did not die. He is was the ressurection and the life.
But this is another subject. Jesus was ressurected on Sunday. The first day of the week. Not on the Sabbath.
WJ,
All these things mangled.Hell is the equalivent of grave. When we die we sleep. The “dead will be judged” upon the 2nd coming of our Messiah. They will be in a concious state at judgement. Until then just sleep. They will see what they will never have.
Mangled this too. Not your fault.
Y'shua said, Luke 23:43 “Verily I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
One slip of the jot or tittle and the whole world is confused. Woe to the scribes! Twist Scripture to their own traditions!
Lastly,
Eph. 4:9
Now that He ascended , what does it mean that He decened? He that died and was burried is the same one that also also ascended above the heavens, that He might fullfill all things.
Laurel
Ken,
You are welcome, but for what did I do?ps. Kevin,
I am amazed how you have seen these things and understand, you are surely a temple of His Spirit.
Amen!Do not let the prize slip from your fingers.
Laurel
Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 06 2007,12:41) Ken,
You are welcome, but for what did I do?ps. Kevin,
I am amazed how you have seen these things and understand, you are surely a temple of His Spirit.
Amen!Do not let the prize slip from your fingers.
Laurel
Quote Ken,
You are welcome, but for what did I do?Thank you for attempting to explain the three days and nights. I spread it out two or three times. So I appreciate you doing so I wouldn't have too……Again
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,07:24) [/quote] Rather than just claim a twisting of scriptures, why diont you give us some facts that show otherwise?
WJ…..> here is a simple fact, Jesus said “For as Jonas was in the belly of the whale three Days and three nights, so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth.So count from friday after noon to sunday morning lets see is there three days and three night? answer no there isn't. Now i ask you are these straight forward scriptures (YES). But you will not accept them as truth, why because it does not fit your trinitarian belief system..
So what you do is go to anything that gives you support and confuse the issues, saying all along your looking for truth, but in reality your just trying to push your own personel convictions. I dought the truth is really the issue with you.
Even when we were debating the trinitarian issue and I posted real simple straight forward text to you you still would not except them as they were plainly quoted. You would skirit of and avoid the issue and give super long posts to through off the points that were being made. And now you are doing the same thing with the subject of Jesus death.
IF you could just lay aside you trinitarian idological convictions and really Just go after the truth for truths sake you could at least see some of these truths being shown you.
I know it would be hard for you to do that but if you try you could with God's help………May God bless you to try…..gene
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,10:34) Whenever God spoke of the Sabbath, whether yearly or weekly, He spoke of having a holy convocation. In otehr words, a gathering. Much like what we call today as “worship”. Therefore, if the Sabbath was well established in the OT, and Christians, both Jew and Gentile, continued to gather on it in the NT, what basis is there in scripture to set aside Sunday as the day of for a holy convocation? The point I'm making is simple. The Sabbath was already established in the OT. We have no evidence of it being eliminated in the NT. So if Christians are no longer obligated to gather on the Sabbath, why not any day of the week? Why Sunday at all? Why not Tuesday? Friday? Shouldn't we all just decide as a church body what is most convenient for us?
I think we can take “freedom in Christ” a bit too liberally…
kejonnThe point is there is no law established as to when believers should gather. Jesus said where 2 or 3 are gathered there am I in the midst. Well if he comes in the midst being the Head of the church then we are having church. Worship should not be limited to a day or a place. He didnt give a time table or a day for worship. If he would have said we should worship on Saturday then he could have easily said this in Jn 4 to the Samaritan woman. We are living Epistles written and read of all men. We are the Temple of God. People should see God in us daily, moment by moment.
To limit a day for our rest “IN HIM” to one physical day to me is not freedem. Is there a limit to how much freedom we can have in the Spirit if we are led by that Spirit?
Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty.
2 Cor ch 3 gives some real good insight on this.
2 Cor 3: NASB
1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?
2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, **not of the letter** but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in **letters engraved on stones**, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (His Spirit is in us and should fill us at all times)
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.The New Covenant is that God now dwells in us and lives in us.
2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Does God need to be under the law?
This is the New Covenant of the New Creation. It is the administration of the Spirit. The Kingdom of God that is at hand and even within us. This New Covenant has a higher law. Its the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death. Its the bearing of the fruit of the Spirit, against such there is no law.
The New Testamant Church began meeting on Sundays long before Constantine. They were celebrating the New Covenant in his blood. They were celebrating the ressurection of the Lord and his appearing to them on the first day. The first day is also the eighth day. The number 8 is a biblical number that means “New Beginnings”. Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead, meaning he has the preeminence. The first day was the beginning of the New Testament Church and the celebration of the feast of weeks.
Feast of weeks also means “First fruits” for it was the beginnings of the harvest. This is what happend on Penticost, the first day of the week. Sunday!
All this is types and shadows of the reality found in Jesus who is our High Priest.
kejonn. Do you have a comment on these scriptures?
Gal. 4:21-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh, but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the Mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar…. But Jerusalem which is above is free which is the mother of us all…. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born of the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the freekenrch says these scriptures are hard to understand. But like the Trinity I think it is obvious!
Blessings!
Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 06 2007,12:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,09:13) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,08:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,08:29) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,07:49) Quote Besides there is no scripture that says Jesus rose on the Sabbath. There is more evidence Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Why would he wait a day to appear to the desciples? 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;That's what Jesus did until Mary found the tomb Empty!
WJ you need to “forget ” all what the RCC's daughters have taught you and start listening to scripture.
It's all clear and plain IF you forget what the Harlot has taught the world. And continues to decieve the “Many”.
She deceives the “whole world”.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
WJ at one time or another everyone who seachers the truth comes to the realization that we have been lied too. And now that the end is near the truth is being reavealed. AND so AGAIN the call goes out “come out of her MY People”.
Search the scriptures search your heart and submit.
God bless,
Ken
kenrchJesus was in the belly of the earth preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient.
1 Peter 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Seems that the Lord was “quickened by the Spirit” Made alive.
He laid in the tomb for three days and three nights. He was “dead” three days and three nights.
kMatt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Was Jonah dead?
Lk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.Jesus soul/spirit was in hell like Jonah. What do you believe in the Catholics soul sleep doctrine?
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8.
Jesus said to the theif on the cross “This day you will be with me in parodise”.
Eph 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.The Eternal Spirit of Jesus did not die. He is was the ressurection and the life.
But this is another subject. Jesus was ressurected on Sunday. The first day of the week. Not on the Sabbath.
WJ,
All these things mangled.Hell is the equalivent of grave. When we die we sleep. The “dead will be judged” upon the 2nd coming of our Messiah. They will be in a concious state at judgement. Until then just sleep. They will see what they will never have.
Mangled this too. Not your fault.
Y'shua said, Luke 23:43 “Verily I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
One slip of the jot or tittle and the whole world is confused. Woe to the scribes! Twist Scripture to their own traditions!
Lastly,
Eph. 4:9
Now that He ascended , what does it mean that He decened? He that died and was burried is the same one that also also ascended above the heavens, that He might fullfill all things.
Laurel
lauralOff the topic but what do you make of these scriptures.
Lk 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.Was Jesus just making up stories?
Or this…
2 Cor 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.What greek credentials do you have that you know more than the translators?
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable TrustNIV – Luk 23:43 – Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible SocietyESV – Luk 23:43 – And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway BiblesNASB – Luk 23:43 – And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Luk 23:43 – And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Luk 23:43 – And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Pa
radise.
American Standard Version 1901 InfoYoung – Luk 23:43 – and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 InfoDarby – Luk 23:43 – And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 InfoWebster – Luk 23:43 – And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Noah Webster Version 1833 InfoHNV – Luk 23:43 – Yeshua said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 06 2007,16:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 06 2007,07:24) Quote Rather than just claim a twisting of scriptures, why diont you give us some facts that show otherwise?
WJ…..> here is a simple fact, Jesus said “For as Jonas was in the belly of the whale three Days and three nights, so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth.So count from friday after noon to sunday morning lets see is there three days and three night? answer no there isn't. Now i ask you are these straight forward scriptures (YES). But you will not accept them as truth, why because it does not fit your trinitarian belief system..
So what you do is go to anything that gives you support and confuse the issues, saying all along your looking for truth, but in reality your just trying to push your own personel convictions. I dought the truth is really the issue with you.
Even when we were debating the trinitarian issue and I posted real simple straight forward text to you you still would not except them as they were plainly quoted. You would skirit of and avoid the issue and give super long posts to through off the points that were being made. And now you are doing the same thing with the subject of Jesus death.
IF you could just lay aside you trinitarian idological convictions and really Just go after the truth for truths sake you could at least see some of these truths being shown you.
I know it would be hard for you to do that but if you try you could with God's help………May God bless you to try…..gene
GBDid you not read this?
Heres some more information about Yeshua being crucified on Friday and his Ressurection on Sunday.
Understanding the Jewish time system:
Luke 13:32 ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’
Even during the Exodus there is an excellent example of Jewish inclusive time keeping. The Bible says: “The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.” Exodus 19:10-11
Intro: The purpose of this section:The term, three days and three nights is: Absolutely equivalent with “after three days”, “on the third day”, three days later”
The term, three days and three nights: Does not require three literal days and three literal nights.
The term, three days and three nights: Does not require 72 literal hours.
That a Friday crucifixion at 3 PM with at Sunday resurrection at 6 AM would have been considered three days and three nights by the Jewish people of the day.From the mouth of Jesus!
Luke 13:32 ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’
What this proves is that the expression “the third day” represents a literal duration of Friday – Sunday!!! Jesus spoke Lk 12:32 ON A FRIDAY and he entered Jerusalem on a Sunday exactly one week before he died!
This proves, by Jesus own words, that Friday – Sunday = less than 72 hours and that the expression “3 days and 3 nights” is Friday – Sunday!!!
http://www.bible.ca/d-3-days-and-3-nights.htm#IIBDo you think that you have all truth?
You just simply count to three rather than look into the scriptures and compare them with the Jewish customs or Calendar, or the early church Fathers to find the truth.
Why do you accuse me for confusing the issues, when I am simply showing you evidence that the WCG doctrine of the death burial and ressurection of Yeshua is not sound.
Blessings!
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,10:34) Whenever God spoke of the Sabbath, whether yearly or weekly, He spoke of having a holy convocation. In otehr words, a gathering. Much like what we call today as “worship”. Therefore, if the Sabbath was well established in the OT, and Christians, both Jew and Gentile, continued to gather on it in the NT, what basis is there in scripture to set aside Sunday as the day of for a holy convocation? The point I'm making is simple. The Sabbath was already established in the OT. We have no evidence of it being eliminated in the NT. So if Christians are no longer obligated to gather on the Sabbath, why not any day of the week? Why Sunday at all? Why not Tuesday? Friday? Shouldn't we all just decide as a church body what is most convenient for us?
I think we can take “freedom in Christ” a bit too liberally…
I think establishing a day is when we start getting into tradition.If God gave us a day, then who are we to argue. But if man establishes a day, then what is it worth?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,17:53) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,10:34) Whenever God spoke of the Sabbath, whether yearly or weekly, He spoke of having a holy convocation. In otehr words, a gathering. Much like what we call today as “worship”. Therefore, if the Sabbath was well established in the OT, and Christians, both Jew and Gentile, continued to gather on it in the NT, what basis is there in scripture to set aside Sunday as the day of for a holy convocation? The point I'm making is simple. The Sabbath was already established in the OT. We have no evidence of it being eliminated in the NT. So if Christians are no longer obligated to gather on the Sabbath, why not any day of the week? Why Sunday at all? Why not Tuesday? Friday? Shouldn't we all just decide as a church body what is most convenient for us?
I think we can take “freedom in Christ” a bit too liberally…
I think establishing a day is when we start getting into tradition.If God gave us a day, then who are we to argue. But if man establishes a day, then what is it worth?
Amen t8!Which day did God give us? The first day? NOT according to the RCC. According to her, the RCC gave us the first day.
So who do we follow? The Pope or the Father and Son?
Are the commandments of God “Tradition”?
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God,….. that we keep his commandments:…… and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love,…. that we walk after his commandments. …This is the commandment, …..That, as ye have heard from the beginning,…. ye should walk in it.
“AND THIS IS LOVE” Not Tradition.
The tradition of men is keeping the first day. Then there are those that keep “any day” but the one God gave.
God bless,
Ken
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,00:53) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,10:34) Whenever God spoke of the Sabbath, whether yearly or weekly, He spoke of having a holy convocation. In otehr words, a gathering. Much like what we call today as “worship”. Therefore, if the Sabbath was well established in the OT, and Christians, both Jew and Gentile, continued to gather on it in the NT, what basis is there in scripture to set aside Sunday as the day of for a holy convocation? The point I'm making is simple. The Sabbath was already established in the OT. We have no evidence of it being eliminated in the NT. So if Christians are no longer obligated to gather on the Sabbath, why not any day of the week? Why Sunday at all? Why not Tuesday? Friday? Shouldn't we all just decide as a church body what is most convenient for us?
I think we can take “freedom in Christ” a bit too liberally…
I think establishing a day is when we start getting into tradition.If God gave us a day, then who are we to argue. But if man establishes a day, then what is it worth?
Precisely
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