Root and branch

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February 26, 2013 at 6:44 am#336975

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,16:44)

LU and all,

1 Timothy 6:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

and

Proverbs 12:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 The wicked desireth the net of evil men: but the root of the righteous yieldeth fruit.

Hi Kerwin,
Thanks for your response. Basically, your verses use the word 'root' in the sense of a foundation or basis of something that something springs from. Would you agree?

February 26, 2013 at 6:45 am#336976

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (abe @ Feb. 24 2013,17:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,10:45)

I have been meditating on this topic of Jesus being the root and offspring of David, i.e. the root and the shoot of Jesse, all week and I believe that it demonstrates how someone can be 100% God according to nature (the Root) and 100% Man according to nature (the Shoot) as Jesus is. This truth is one of the last things Jesus reveals about Himself in the last chapter of Revelations. The Root was not Jewish but the Shoot was Jewish. The doctrine of the only begotten Son being 100% God in nature and 100% Man in nature after the conception within Mary is found in the fact which Jesus claims about Himself as the Root and the Shoot of Jesse, imo. This is actually a common opinion.

Hi LU,

Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Does this help?

Peace..

Hi abe,
Yes that is helpful and I think that it applies to Jesus as the 'shoot' or offspring of David but not to Jesus as the 'root.' Do you agree?

February 26, 2013 at 7:43 am#336977

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,19:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 18 2013,00:45)

LU,

Do you believe that Jesus is a hybrid being with 200% nature?

Kerwin,
How would you describe a stem/shoot coming out of a dried up stump that was claiming to be also one of the roots that supports the stump? This is not common sense. Jesus describes Himself this way in Rev.22:16. He is 100% shoot while at the same time 100% root from which He, as the shoot, is from. Go figure??

He is not 200% any one thing. He is 100% one thing while at the same time 100% another thing.

The word picture that comes to mind goes like this:

A certain prince of a royal family/monarchy who has exceeding wealth and influence in his land, wanted to get true understanding of the poor and homeless in order to be a better future king. So, he put aside all his wealth and possessions and authority for a time and set out to live like a pauper who is homeless. He knew that he must do that in another country so as to not be recognized. Well, he goes and truly lives like a pauper without a penny in his pocket. He takes on any menial labor that comes his way, works hard and helps others. He grows street wise and grows in understanding of the pauper's lifestyle by first hand experience as much as he possibly can. Then after several years of the pauper lifestyle and developing the understanding and a heart for the poor, he returns to his homeland and soon reigns as the king who becomes known for his heart and compassion for the poor and is loved by all.

So, Kerwin, in that story:

Does the prince become a pauper while still technically considered a prince in his own land?

The prince first had the understanding of a privileged prince and then developed the understanding of being a common person and poor and underprivileged. The outcome was someone who gained an understanding of two extremely different identities.

While he was identified as a pauper, he still had the identity of a prince…he just gave up the glory associated with it. When he received the glory back, the heart and understanding of the pauper within him remained a part of him forever.

When the prince lived away from his kingdom, he was 100% pauper as well as 100% royal prince all at the same time. He wasn't 200% prince/pauper and he wasn't 50% prince and 50% pauper.

Obviously, as all word pictures go, it is not a perfect example but it helps me to get the gist of Jesus being two different identities at the same time.

Jesus is 100% identified as a root (theos) and 100% as a shoot (man). He is not 50% root (theos) and 50% shoot (man).

Did this story help you understand how someone could have two identities at the same time and answer your question?

Blessings!

February 26, 2013 at 8:33 am#336982

abe

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,21:45)

Quote (abe @ Feb. 24 2013,17:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,10:45)

Hi LU,

Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Does this help?

Peace..

Hi abe,
Yes that is helpful and I think that it applies to Jesus as the 'shoot' or offspring of David but not to Jesus as the 'root.' Do you agree?

Hi LU,

I think Christ was in Abraham. Do you think this?

Peace sister.

February 26, 2013 at 8:44 am#336986

Lightenup

Participant

Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.

See the geneology from Luke 3:

23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Blessings!

February 27, 2013 at 6:49 am#337070

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,11:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 24 2013,16:44)

LU and all,

1 Timothy 6:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

and

Proverbs 12:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 The wicked desireth the net of evil men: but the root of the righteous yieldeth fruit.

Hi Kerwin,
Thanks for your response. Basically, your verses use the word 'root' in the sense of a foundation or basis of something that something springs from. Would you agree?

LU,

I am fairly certain you are correct.

February 27, 2013 at 7:16 am#337072

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,13:44)

Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.

See the geneology from Luke 3:

Blessings!

Kathi

If Jesus was not the real son of Joseph how could he be in the loins of Abraham

February 27, 2013 at 12:22 pm#337089

kerwin

Participant

Quote (abe @ Feb. 26 2013,13:33)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,21:45)

Quote (abe @ Feb. 24 2013,17:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,10:45)

Hi LU,

Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Does this help?

Peace..

Hi abe,
Yes that is helpful and I think that it applies to Jesus as the 'shoot' or offspring of David but not to Jesus as the 'root.' Do you agree?

Hi LU,

I think Christ was in Abraham. Do you think this?

Peace sister.

Abe,

He was carried along by the Spirit of Christ when he bore witness. So Christ was in him in that way.

February 27, 2013 at 12:29 pm#337090

kerwin

Participant

LU,

Jesus Christ did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after he sacrificed his life in order to defeat God's enemies.

February 27, 2013 at 7:16 pm#337097

abe

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,21:45)

Quote (abe @ Feb. 24 2013,17:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,10:45)

Hi LU,

Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Does this help?

Peace..

Hi abe,
Yes that is helpful and I think that it applies to Jesus as the 'shoot' or offspring of David but not to Jesus as the 'root.' Do you agree?

Hi LU,

Is.48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND his Spirit, hath sent me.

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

Could you tell me who is talking here?

Peace sister..

February 27, 2013 at 8:18 pm#337099

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 27 2013,01:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,13:44)

Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.

See the geneology from Luke 3:

Blessings!

Kathi

If Jesus was not the real son of Joseph how could he be in the loins of Abraham

Terraricca,
Mary also came from the genetic line of Abraham along with Joseph. They both descended through David also but each came from different children of David.

So, since Mary was a blood descendant of Abraham, this is how He could be in the loins of Abraham as could all of Abraham's blood descendants.

February 27, 2013 at 8:19 pm#337100

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 27 2013,06:29)

LU,

Jesus Christ did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after he sacrificed his life in order to defeat God's enemies.

Hi Kerwin,
I agree, but I'm not sure why you said that. What were you responding to?

February 27, 2013 at 10:08 pm#337111

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2013,01:18)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 27 2013,01:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,13:44)

Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.

See the geneology from Luke 3:

Blessings!

Kathi

If Jesus was not the real son of Joseph how could he be in the loins of Abraham

Terraricca,
Mary also came from the genetic line of Abraham along with Joseph. They both descended through David also but each came from different children of David.

So, since Mary was a blood descendant of Abraham, this is how He could be in the loins of Abraham as could all of Abraham's blood descendants.

Kathi

were his the genealogy of Mary in scriptures

February 28, 2013 at 10:48 am#337140

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2013,01:19)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 27 2013,06:29)

LU,

Jesus Christ did not have the authority to send the Spirit until after he sacrificed his life in order to defeat God's enemies.

Hi Kerwin,
I agree, but I'm not sure why you said that. What were you responding to?

LU,

I was responding to your example that seems to claim that Jesus once had the authority and surrendered it.

While living his mortality he had the power to petition Yawheh for 12 legions of angels and be given them but he did not have the power to send the Spirit.

This leads me to conclude he did not give up any authority but gained more after choosing to sacrifice himself in order to defeat Yahweh's enemies.

February 28, 2013 at 11:10 pm#337151

Lightenup

Participant

Hi Kerwin,
I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story.

No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.

Matt 26: 51And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servantg of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.

So, that particular example doesn't show whether or not He had the power to send the angels or the Spirit, it just shows that He had to ask the Father first which takes no authority or power, it just takes someone to ask for something.

We do know that He was highly exalted after He was resurrected and that He received the glory that He had before He emptied Himself to become a man…and He was seated at the right hand of the Father.

Before He became flesh, during the time on earth when He was flesh, and after His resurrection, He always cooperated with His Father because they are interdependent and inseparable in their oneness. The Son didn't work independently of the Father before, during, or after His time on earth as a man, imo.

February 28, 2013 at 11:11 pm#337152

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 27 2013,16:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2013,01:18)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 27 2013,01:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,13:44)

Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.

See the geneology from Luke 3:

Blessings!

Kathi

If Jesus was not the real son of Joseph how could he be in the loins of Abraham

Terraricca,
Mary also came from the genetic line of Abraham along with Joseph. They both descended through David also but each came from different children of David.

So, since Mary was a blood descendant of Abraham, this is how He could be in the loins of Abraham as could all of Abraham's blood descendants.

Kathi

were his the genealogy of Mary in scriptures

Luke 3. Mary was the daughter of Heli and Joseph was the Son of Heli as in 'son-in-law.'

February 28, 2013 at 11:13 pm#337153

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (abe @ Feb. 27 2013,13:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,21:45)

Quote (abe @ Feb. 24 2013,17:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2013,10:45)

Hi LU,

Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Does this help?

Peace..

Hi abe,
Yes that is helpful and I think that it applies to Jesus as the 'shoot' or offspring of David but not to Jesus as the 'root.' Do you agree?

Hi LU,

Is.48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND his Spirit, hath sent me.

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

Could you tell me who is talking here?

Peace sister..

Hi abe,
I would say that is YHVH, the Son.

March 1, 2013 at 1:30 am#337171

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 01 2013,04:11)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 27 2013,16:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2013,01:18)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 27 2013,01:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,13:44)

Hi abe,
Yes, He (Jesus), as the shoot, was in the loins of Abraham in the same manner that any descendant of Abraham was. As the Root, He was not in Abraham's loins.

See the geneology from Luke 3:

Blessings!

Kathi

If Jesus was not the real son of Joseph how could he be in the loins of Abraham

Terraricca,
Mary also came from the genetic line of Abraham along with Joseph. They both descended through David also but each came from different children of David.

So, since Mary was a blood descendant of Abraham, this is how He could be in the loins of Abraham as could all of Abraham's blood descendants.

Kathi

were his the genealogy of Mary in scriptures

Luke 3. Mary was the daughter of Heli and Joseph was the Son of Heli as in 'son-in-law.'

kathi

Quote

Luke 3. Mary was the daughter of Heli and Joseph was the Son of Heli as in 'son-in-law.'

Hmmmmm,?

March 1, 2013 at 4:50 pm#337197

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike…….ok let's look at it this way , what is a root , is it not that which came from a “SEED” so from the seed of ABRAHAM came Jesse and DAVID and JESUS all these are are roots which came from the Seed of Abraham , now if you can understand that , you can realize that the root spoken of there is a genealogical order of events. So from Abrahams seed came all the tribes of ISRAEL and The tribe Judah was one of those tribes and Jesse had his roots in that tribe also and David came from the root of Jesse another words that linage and so did Jesus.

Remember a root is the product of the seed, not the other way around as you have it. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

March 2, 2013 at 1:23 am#337212

kerwin

Participant

LU,

Quote

I think you are referring to my prince/pauper story.

Yes.

Quote

No one needs authority to ask the Father for something.

I was speaking of actually receiving and commanding them.

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