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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,10:58) Hi Tim4,
Excuse my ignorance.
Aaron or Levi?
Hi Nick,Both.
In order to be a priest, one not only had to be of the tribe of Levi, but he also had to be of the family of Aaron. In fact, if one could not trace his genealogy back to the family of Aaron, he could not be a priest of God.Tim
Quote David are you saying that you feel the whole of the Hebrew scriptures was done away with? –gnipp gnopp.
No, I am saying that: the sacrificial death of Jesus, in 33 C.E., “blotted out,” or “abolished,” the Law and with it the “commandment to collect tithes.”—Colossians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:13-15; Hebrews 7:5, 18.
See page 55 of this thread regarding the sabbath.
Quote If you really want to draw it out further, if the 10 commandments were done away with then there really was no need for Paul to correct the corinthians in their mishandling of a sinning brother to begin with. Please explain using scriptures.
Quote Now if Christ made sure to spell out a change in procedure, certainly He would have spelled out a deletion.
Jesus, being a Jew would have followed the law covenant. But a “new covenant” was established when his sacrifical death was presented.Quote David are you saying that you feel the whole of the Hebrew scriptures was done away with? A covenant is an agreement between two parties. In this case God and the nation of israel.
The terms of the Law covenant were that if the Israelites kept the covenant they would be a people for the name of Jehovah, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, with His blessing (Ex 19:5, 6; De 28:1-14)
If they violated the covenant, they would be cursed. (De 28:15-68)
Its purposes were: to make transgressions manifest (Ga 3:19); to lead the Jews to Christ (Ga 3:24); to serve for a shadow of the good things to come (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17); to protect the Jews from false, pagan religion and preserve the true worship of Jehovah; to protect the line of the seed of promise. Added to the covenant with Abraham (Ga 3:17-19)
However, the Law covenant became in a sense “obsolete” when God announced by means of the prophet Jeremiah that there would be a new covenant. (Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:13) In 33 C.E. the Law covenant was canceled on the basis of Christ’s death on the torture stake (Col 2:14), the new covenant replacing it.—Heb 7:12; 9:15; Ac 2:1-4.
So, it appears that the word “olham” should be translated “indefite period” and not forever in this instance, because it certainly wasn't “forever.”
JEREMIAH 31:31-34
““Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.””HEBREWS 8:13
“In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.”COLOSSIANS 2:14
“and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.”HEBREWS 7:12
“For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law.”HEBREWS 9:15
“So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.”ACTS 2:1-4
“Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”Jehovah foretold the new covenant by the prophet Jeremiah in the seventh century B.C.E., stating that it would not be like the Law covenant, which Israel broke. (Jer 31:31-34) On the night before his death, Nisan 14, 33 C.E., when he established the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus Christ announced the new covenant, to be validated by his sacrifice. (Lu 22:20) On the 50th day from his resurrection and 10 days after he had ascended to his Father, he poured out the holy spirit, which he had received from Jehovah, on his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem.—Ac 2:1-4, 17, 33; 2Co 3:6, 8, 9; Heb 2:3, 4.
The parties to the new covenant are Jehovah, on one side, and “the Israel of God,” the spirit-begotten ones in union with Christ, making up his congregation or body, on the other side. (Heb 8:10; 12:22-24; Ga 6:15, 16; 3:26-28; Ro 2:28, 29)
Quote (david @ Mar. 17 2008,17:27) The Bible states categorically that the sacrificial death of Jesus, in 33 C.E., “blotted out,” or “abolished,” the Law and with it the “commandment to collect tithes.”—Colossians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:13-15; Hebrews 7:5, 18. David, it states nothing of the sort categorically. If you read all of hebrew between the verses you gave 7:5-18, you'll notice something. It never says that giving of tithes is to be stopped, what this talking about is who the tithes were to be given to. It says the previous commandment was to give to the the levites….
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.What did Abraham do when he met Melchizedk? He gave him a tithe (10%). (heb 7:2)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.The above verses starting to set off a few alarms yet?
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.What is being said? The preisthood was changed, so it was not the commandment to gives tithes that was disannulled, but the commanment to give them to the tribe of the Levites. Yes, from 33 AD there was a new spiritual preisthood, after the order of Melchizedek, and what did he recieve from Abraham? A tithe (10%).
The giving “according to what a person has,” giving “as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” etc was what a person chose to give extra to the poor etc. The tithe was already a given.
David, the covernant spoke of in JEREMIAH 31:31-34 is not the covernant you are thinking of. Notice it is with the house of Israel AND the house of Judah….
JEREMIAH 31:31-34
““Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.””Read this part again….
“And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,”
Does that sound the times we are currently living in. Unfortunately not. What the book of Jerimiah is talking about here is still in the future, in the Kingdom of God, the same covernant spoken of in EZEKIEL 37…notice the similariites, but also notice it is after a massive resurection of the dead
EZEKIEL 37
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it , and performed it , saith the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.Quote (doctorex @ Mar. 20 2008,22:38) [quote=
What did Abraham do when he met Melchizedk? He gave him a tithe (10%). (heb 7:2)
Hi doctorx,Abraham never tithed a single part of his personal fortune, ever, and he was a very rich person.
He gave 10% of the spoils of his sacking of Sodom.
He said that he wanted none of those spoils so he gave 10% to Melchizedek and the other 90% back to the people.Tim
Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2008,12:08) Quote David are you saying that you feel the whole of the Hebrew scriptures was done away with? –gnipp gnopp.
No, I am saying that: the sacrificial death of Jesus, in 33 C.E., “blotted out,” or “abolished,” the Law and with it the “commandment to collect tithes.”—Colossians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:13-15; Hebrews 7:5, 18.
See page 55 of this thread regarding the sabbath.
Ok good, I was a little worried there.
-LaterQuote (david @ Mar. 20 2008,12:12) Quote If you really want to draw it out further, if the 10 commandments were done away with then there really was no need for Paul to correct the corinthians in their mishandling of a sinning brother to begin with. Please explain using scriptures.
No scripture is needed for this statement. If the law was done away, the man was not guilty of sleeping with is father's wife and the church rightly showed grace and was wrongly chastised by Paul.Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2008,12:12) Quote Now if Christ made sure to spell out a change in procedure, certainly He would have spelled out a deletion.
Jesus, being a Jew would have followed the law covenant. But a “new covenant” was established when his sacrifical death was presented.L A W that's a funny way to spell old, unless your putting a little 'spin' on things.
Yes after His death we find Paul making reference to the Holy Days and what they portray (or teach, if you like) for the new covenant christians and that they were keeping these annual Sabbaths [Holy Days] (1Cor 11 where Paul also reaffirms Christ's change to the passover and shows how they were not keeping the passover properly).
You have also noticed that the disciples were gathered together on the annual Sabbath of Pentecost. Again, I find it hard to believe that the weekly sabbath was done away with at this time when the annual Sabbaths are still intact.
-Later
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 21 2008,00:38) Quote (doctorex @ Mar. 20 2008,22:38) [quote=
What did Abraham do when he met Melchizedk? He gave him a tithe (10%). (heb 7:2)
Hi doctorx,Abraham never tithed a single part of his personal fortune, ever, and he was a very rich person.
He gave 10% of the spoils of his sacking of Sodom.
He said that he wanted none of those spoils so he gave 10% to Melchizedek and the other 90% back to the people.Tim
I've never tithed of my “personal forune” either, I tithe of my increase, just as Abraham did. No matter how we choose to look at it, He did give a tithe: a tenth of his increase. What he had remaining was his to do with is as he pleased, and it seems he was a cheerful giver….2CORINTHIANS 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give ; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.Quote L A W that's a funny way to spell old, unless your putting a little 'spin' on things. –gnipp gnopp
(2 Corinthians 3:14)
But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ.In some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures the word di·a·the′ke is variously rendered “covenant,” “will,” “testament” (testamentum, Vg). However, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891) says, under “Covenant”: “There seems, however, to be no necessity for the introduction of a new word [other than “covenant”] conveying a new idea. The Sept[uagint] having rendered [berith′] (which never means will or testament, but always covenant or agreement) by [di·a·the′ke] consistently throughout the O.T., the N.T. writers, in adopting that word, may naturally be supposed to intend to convey to their readers, most of them familiar with the Greek O.T., the same idea. Moreover, in the majority of cases, the same thing which has been called a ‘covenant’ (berith′) in the O.T. is referred to in the N.T. (e.g. 2Cor. iii, 14; Heb. vii, ix; Rev. xi, 19); while in the same context the same word and thing in the Greek are in the English [in KJ] sometimes represented by ‘covenant,’ and sometimes by ‘testament’ (Heb. vii, 22; viii, 8-13; ix, 15).”
Repeatedly in the book of Hebrews (Heb 7:22; 8:6, 8, 9, 10; 9:4, 15, 16, 17, 20) the writer uses the word di·a·the′ke with undeniable reference to a covenant in the old Hebrew sense, even quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and referring to “the ark of the covenant.” In translating these verses of Jeremiah, the Greek Septuagint uses di·a·the′ke for the ancient Hebrew berith′, meaning “covenant.” Also, Hebrews 9:20 quotes from Exodus 24:6-8, where a covenant is unmistakably spoken of.
Anyway, this old covenant, was the law covenant. Read the scripture in full context.
Quote (doctorex @ Mar. 21 2008,03:58) Tim[/quote]
I've never tithed of my “personal forune” either, I tithe of my increase, just as Abraham did. No matter how we choose to look at it, He did give a tithe:
And exactly how do you achieve that fortune if not thru increase? And yet you have never tithed on your personal fortune. It was never said that Abraham ever gave 10% of all he had accumulated while he was accumulating it.I totally believe in giving because the LORD loves a cheerful giver. But tithing of 10% of your gross income is totally unscriptural. Jesus never tithed, his apostles never tithed and Paul never said that anyone following Jesus should tithe.
And when the Jews did tithe it was only on the increase of the products of the land, not money. And they did have money back then.Do you realize that fishermen never tithed, carpenters never tithed, only land owners who were commanded to return 10% of their gain in animals or produce in order to help feed the widows and the poor. Even then it was not the first 10% as the church says. A cattleman was supposed to give the tenth cow to walk under the rod. If he only had nine cows he did not even give.
Sorry I got on my soapbox. I despise the thought of the church robbing from poor people on welfare who are afraid to not tithe because they have been told that God will curse them.
The church preaches tithing to extort money from the flocks that fear being cursed by God.
Tim
Quote Yes after His death we find Paul making reference to the Holy Days and what they portray (or teach, if you like) for the new covenant christians and that they were keeping these annual Sabbaths [Holy Days] (1Cor 11 where Paul also reaffirms Christ's change to the passover and shows how they were not keeping the passover properly). gnipp gnopp, are you referring to the “lord's evening meal”? (1 cor 11:20)
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 21 2008,04:52) Quote (doctorex @ Mar. 21 2008,03:58) Tim
I've never tithed of my “personal forune” either, I tithe of my increase, just as Abraham did. No matter how we choose to look at it, He did give a tithe:
And exactly how do you achieve that fortune if not thru increase? And yet you have never tithed on your personal fortune. It was never said that Abraham ever gave 10% of all he had accumulated while he was accumulating it.I totally believe in giving because the LORD loves a cheerful giver. But tithing of 10% of your gross income is totally unscriptural. Jesus never tithed, his apostles never tithed and Paul never said that anyone following Jesus should tithe.
And when the Jews did tithe it was only on the increase of the products of the land, not money. And they did have money back then.Do you realize that fishermen never tithed, carpenters never tithed, only land owners who were commanded to return 10% of their gain in animals or produce in order to help feed the widows and the poor. Even then it was not the first 10% as the church says. A cattleman was supposed to give the tenth cow to walk under the rod. If he only had nine cows he did not even give.
Sorry I got on my soapbox. I despise the thought of the church robbing from poor people on welfare who are afraid to not tithe because they have been told that God will curse them.
The church preaches tithing to extort money from the flocks that fear being cursed by God.
Tim[/quote]
I was only recently called into a relationship with God, and have been tithing in my increase from when he called me, and not on gross. I don't tithe because of fear of being cursed, I tithe because I want to. Why would Paul or Jesus teach to tithe when it was already part of the Law? It's just like the Sabbath, people say Jesus never said to observe the Sabbath, but he didn't have to, it was already a given. As for people on welfare etc, why would they tithe? It would be like the chiurch helping out the poor and asking for it back, but that's another story altogether. Besides, I'm not telling you to tithe, that's between you and God.
Quote (doctorex @ Mar. 21 2008,20:14) Tim[/quote] I was only recently called into a relationship with God, and have been tithing in my increase from when he called me, and not on gross. I don't tithe because of fear of being cursed, I tithe because I want to. Why would Paul or Jesus teach to tithe when it was already part of the Law? It's just like the Sabbath, people say Jesus never said to observe the Sabbath, but he didn't have to, it was already a given. As for people on welfare etc, why would they tithe? It would be like the chiurch helping out the poor and asking for it back, but that's another story altogether. Besides, I'm not telling you to tithe, that's between you and God.
Hi Doctorex,Your attitude about giving is good and proper in my opinion.
May God bless you.
Tim
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2008,04:16) Quote L A W that's a funny way to spell old, unless your putting a little 'spin' on things. –gnipp gnopp
(2 Corinthians 3:14)
But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ.In some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures the word di·a·the′ke is variously rendered “covenant,” “will,” “testament” (testamentum, Vg). However, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891) says, under “Covenant”: “There seems, however, to be no necessity for the introduction of a new word [other than “covenant”] conveying a new idea. The Sept[uagint] having rendered [berith′] (which never means will or testament, but always covenant or agreement) by [di·a·the′ke] consistently throughout the O.T., the N.T. writers, in adopting that word, may naturally be supposed to intend to convey to their readers, most of them familiar with the Greek O.T., the same idea. Moreover, in the majority of cases, the same thing which has been called a ‘covenant’ (berith′) in the O.T. is referred to in the N.T. (e.g. 2Cor. iii, 14; Heb. vii, ix; Rev. xi, 19); while in the same context the same word and thing in the Greek are in the English [in KJ] sometimes represented by ‘covenant,’ and sometimes by ‘testament’ (Heb. vii, 22; viii, 8-13; ix, 15).”
Repeatedly in the book of Hebrews (Heb 7:22; 8:6, 8, 9, 10; 9:4, 15, 16, 17, 20) the writer uses the word di·a·the′ke with undeniable reference to a covenant in the old Hebrew sense, even quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and referring to “the ark of the covenant.” In translating these verses of Jeremiah, the Greek Septuagint uses di·a·the′ke for the ancient Hebrew berith′, meaning “covenant.” Also, Hebrews 9:20 quotes from Exodus 24:6-8, where a covenant is unmistakably spoken of.
Anyway, this old covenant, was the law covenant. Read the scripture in full context.
Giving me the definition of covenant is a funny way to comment on the words old or law. Well, I guess it is an election year. I wonder how you would define the word is?-Later
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2008,12:03) Quote Yes after His death we find Paul making reference to the Holy Days and what they portray (or teach, if you like) for the new covenant christians and that they were keeping these annual Sabbaths [Holy Days] (1Cor 11 where Paul also reaffirms Christ's change to the passover and shows how they were not keeping the passover properly). gnipp gnopp, are you referring to the “lord's evening meal”? (1 cor 11:20)
I'm referring to a passover ceremony that Paul commented on as he referred to a passover ceremony where Jesus instituted new proceedures for keeping the passover.-Later
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