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Hi Theo.
Yes, to err is human. You've said that a couple times now and no one is disagreeing with that. We all stumble in word and deed many times, and I more than most.
But, if it is too much to read all I wrote, then perhaps I'll just say this on tithing:
The Bible states categorically that the sacrificial death of Jesus, in 33 C.E., “blotted out,” or “abolished,” the Law and with it the “commandment to collect tithes.”—Colossians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:13-15; Hebrews 7:5, 18.Christians from 33 C.E. became part of a new spiritual priesthood that was not supported by tithes.—Ro 6:14; Heb 7:12; 1Pe 2:9.
But rather, to defray congregational expenses, they were to contribute “according to what a person has,” giving “as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2Co 8:12; 9:7)My thoughts are somewhat similar on the Sabbath. On page 55 I covered everything I think could be said, or at least, most of it. It too, with the law was done away with. If you disagree, (and the only reason you really could disagree is that one scripture that speaks of “the law and the prophets”) then please state why. Quote the scripture.
But then, please also note page 55, or at least the first part of my first post on that page.david
Quote Voluminous amounts of reading please forgive my laziness Theo, anyone that uses the word “voluminous” should have no problem with reading!
David….Iam not denying that Iam literate….I am just lazy when it comes to chapter and verse,however ,you certainly narrowed things down with your post and have caused me to read the scriptures you referenced…..thanks/ theo
Greetings David…..What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it”,that was to bare out and fullfill the prophesies of the OT as well as the law given by the Father….To fullfill the law as I would think would be to obey and live under or by it…. In addition after reading Lev.23 I would think the term from” generation to generation from this day forward and forever” would include the time we now live in….Whatayathink???
Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2008,22:31) Greetings David…..What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it”,that was to bare out and fullfill the prophesies of the OT as well as the law given by the Father….To fullfill the law as I would think would be to obey and live under or by it…. In addition after reading Lev.23 I would think the term from” generation to generation from this day forward and forever” would include the time we now live in….Whatayathink???
Didn't the OT also sat that the Levites would be the priests from this day forward and forever?
Where are they now?Tim
Hi,
Priests AND Levites are mentioned 90 times in scripture.
That suggests the priests were not the Levites.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 19 2008,03:14) Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2008,22:31) Greetings David…..What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it”,that was to bare out and fullfill the prophesies of the OT as well as the law given by the Father….To fullfill the law as I would think would be to obey and live under or by it…. In addition after reading Lev.23 I would think the term from” generation to generation from this day forward and forever” would include the time we now live in….Whatayathink???
Didn't the OT also sat that the Levites would be the priests from this day forward and forever?
Where are they now?Tim
Greetings Tim….The tribe of Levi were indeed a priestly tribe that is to say their duties were direected to the keeping of the temple (aka The Cohans )….One of their many functions were to gather the offerings ( tithes )Tim…P.S……The levites were members of the tribe of Levi and Judah,Benjimen and Levi constitute what we know today as” the Jews”
Quote Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2008,22:31)
Greetings David…..What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it”,that was to bare out and fullfill the prophesies of the OT as well as the law given by the Father….To fullfill the law as I would think would be to obey and live under or by it…. In addition after reading Lev.23 I would think the term from” generation to generation from this day forward and forever” would include the time we now live in….Whatayathink???Didn't the OT also sat that the Levites would be the priests from this day forward and forever?
Where are they now?I get so frustrated with the misunderstanding of that word, that is often translated “forever.” I can mean forever. I often means a really long time. But the actual meaning is an indefinite period of time. It does not have to be translated forever and sometimes, “forever” is definitely the wrong English word to convey the thought. Because we know there are instances where that word is used of something that as it turns out, didn't last “forever.”
Quote Greetings David…..What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it”,that was to bare out and fullfill the prophesies of the OT as well as the law given by the Father….To fullfill the law as I would think would be to obey and live under or by it…. In addition after reading Lev.23 I would think the term from” generation to generation from this day forward and forever” would include the time we now live in….Whatayathink??? Jesus, being born a Jew, certainly did liver under the law, and the law was in effect until the new covenant was put into place.
Kind of busy right now, and not exactly sure which scripture you're referring to in Lev 23, but again, that word that is translated “forever” in your Bible is more accurately translated “to time indefinite” (meaning a long period of time.)“The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [Heb. OHLAM]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite, because in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day he rested and proceeded to refresh himself.” (ex 31:16,17)
Notice who this covenant is between. Notice how long it is to last “Ohlam.” Do some study on that word. It is used to mean a long indefinite period of time, that may OR MAY NOT be forever. TimVI just provided one example where it turned out that this word did not mean “forever.”
Quote What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it” First, What is “the Law and the Prophets”? To me, it seems when this phrase is used, it is referring to the Hebrew scriptures in general.
Examples:
MATTHEW 7:12
““All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS mean.”MATTHEW 22:40
“On these two commandments the whole LAW hangs, and THE PROPHETS.””LUKE 16:16
““THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it.”JOHN 1:45
“Philip found Na·thańa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in THE LAW, AND THE PROPHETS wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naźa·reth.””ROMANS 3:21
“But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS;”Now with that scriptural understanding, look at:
MATTHEW 5:17
““Do not think I came to destroy THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill;”The phrase “the law and the prophets” does not seem to indicate the Mosaic Law. I believe it is referring to the whole of the Hebrew scriptures.
The Hebrew word ‛oh·laḿ carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning “hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746)
The word ‛oh·laḿ is at times associated with that which is everlasting. (1Ki 2:45, ftn) The prophet Isaiah wrote: “Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite.” (Isa 40:28) Jehovah is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” (Ps 90:2) Since Jehovah is immortal and does not die, he will continue to be God for all eternity. (Hab 1:12; 1Ti 1:17) However, the Hebrew expression ‛oh·laḿ does not in itself mean “forever.” It often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things’ existence can be said to be ‘to time indefinite’ because the time of their end is not then specified. For example, the ‘indefinitely lasting’ Law covenant came to an end with Jesus’ death and the bringing in of a new covenant. (Ex 31:16, 17; Ro 10:4; Ga 5:18; Col 2:16, 17; Heb 9:15) And the ‘indefinitely lasting’ Aaronic priesthood similarly came to an end.—Ex 40:15; Heb 7:11-24; 10:1.Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2008,11:59) Quote Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2008,22:31)
Greetings David…..What about Jesus'assertion that “He did not come to change the Law but to fullfill it”,that was to bare out and fullfill the prophesies of the OT as well as the law given by the Father….To fullfill the law as I would think would be to obey and live under or by it…. In addition after reading Lev.23 I would think the term from” generation to generation from this day forward and forever” would include the time we now live in….Whatayathink???Didn't the OT also sat that the Levites would be the priests from this day forward and forever?
Where are they now?I get so frustrated with the misunderstanding of that word, that is often translated “forever.” I can mean forever. I often means a really long time. But the actual meaning is an indefinite period of time. It does not have to be translated forever and sometimes, “forever” is definitely the wrong English word to convey the thought. Because we know there are instances where that word is used of something that as it turns out, didn't last “forever.”
I agree with you David. words derived from aion actually mean for an age, or a period of time. It is the most miss translated word in the KJV of the bible, and causes a great deal of missunderstanding.Tim
Greetings Tim…..At a risk of splitting hairs with respect to the biblical interpetation of forever,let us consider the possibility,that the end of this aforementioned period of time has not occured yet,and if your contention is that it did,than when did it end…
Don't get frustrated…..You are causing me to question and to prove things….thats a good thing.
The Levitical priesthood still exists today in orthadox JeweryQuote (theodorej @ Mar. 20 2008,01:02) Greetings Tim…..
The Levitical priesthood still exists today in orthadox Jewery
Hi Theodore,in order to be a priest one not only had to be of the tribe of Levi, but he also had to be of the family of Aaron. In fact, if one could not trace his genealogy back to the family of Aaron, he could not be a priest of God. This is the whole point of Hebrews seven. Jesus Christ is a priest for the eons of the rank of Melchizedek because Melchizedek predated the law which stated that only sons of Aaron could be priests.
Who are the proven priests that are of the family of Aaron today?
Tim
Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 20 2008,01:02) Greetings Tim…..At a risk of splitting hairs with respect to the biblical interpetation of forever,let us consider the possibility,that the end of this aforementioned period of time has not occured yet,and if your contention is that it did,than when did it end…
Don't get frustrated…..You are causing me to question and to prove things….thats a good thing.
The Levitical priesthood still exists today in orthadox Jewery
My contention is not that that any age has ended.
Only that things that were supposed to be forever were for only an age. And an age can end.Tim
Greetings Tim….That is an interesting question…..I would have the seek out that information in the anals of Jewish tribal antiquitity ( Arons geneology as it would apply to the ancient tribe of Levi )….I suspect they still exist…
If I may, I'd like to add a few observation.
Indefinite also means unlimited; not definite; without fixed or specified limit. Substituting unlimited for indefinite's substitution of forever's translation from olam really doesn't change the meaning in this scripture. In another Bible it is translated perpetual, which sounds like not necessarily from the beginning, but from here on out.
Strongs concordance provides for olam:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
These definitions, including indefinite (which is coupled with unending future to convey the thought better when using indefinite), do imply a meaning closer to the translation of perpetual. Forever does give the impression of ever existing, or eternal which is probably an improper translation in this modern age, while 'for ever' would be suitable and it is translated that way in some Bibles.
Perpetual – 1.continuing or enduring forever; everlasting. 2.lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow. 3.continuing or continued without intermission or interruption; ceaseless: a perpetual stream of visitors all day. 4.blooming almost continuously throughout the season or the year. I only included the adjective definition as that is it's roll in the above scripture (Ex 31:16)
Argument/games with words aside (because each will choose a definition that suits their belief best) really do tend to dull the senses. Kind of why I like that a lot of the Lord's answers weren't lengthy dissertations.
The Jews are really known for the Sabbaths and Passover. When Jesus came to make the new covenant possible (complete forgiveness of sins which animal sacrifice couldn't achieve), he changed how the passover was to be kept. He didn't do away with it. We even see Paul later using the passover season (including the Holy days of Unleavened Bread) to instruct the Corinthians about the danger of allowing sin amongst the body (little leaven leavens the whole lump 1Cor 4 or 5?). Now if Christ made sure to spell out a change in procedure, certainly He would have spelled out a deletion. Also considering the reference to the Holy Days and what they portrayed (or teach, if you like) for the new covenant christians and that they were keeping these annual Sabbaths [Holy Days] (1Cor 11 where Paul also reaffirms Christ's change and shows how they were not keeping the passover properly), I find it hard to believe that the weekly sabbath was done away with at this time. Of course later the Catholic church changed the day of worship to Sunday, so I suppose that day (Sunday) would apply to any that have their doctrines derived from that belief (catholic) system.
If you really want to draw it out further, if the 10 commandments were done away with then there really was no need for Paul to correct the corinthians in their mishandling of a sinning brother to begin with.
David are you saying that you feel the whole of the Hebrew scriptures was done away with?
-Later
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 20 2008,04:14) Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 20 2008,01:02) Greetings Tim…..At a risk of splitting hairs with respect to the biblical interpetation of forever,let us consider the possibility,that the end of this aforementioned period of time has not occured yet,and if your contention is that it did,than when did it end…
Don't get frustrated…..You are causing me to question and to prove things….thats a good thing.
The Levitical priesthood still exists today in orthadox Jewery
My contention is not that that any age has ended.
Only that things that were supposed to be forever were for only an age. And an age can end.Tim
Hi Tim4,
The priesthood can continue to exist without their sacrifices being continued or, if they are, being in any way effectual.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,07:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 20 2008,04:14) Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 20 2008,01:02) Greetings Tim…..At a risk of splitting hairs with respect to the biblical interpetation of forever,let us consider the possibility,that the end of this aforementioned period of time has not occured yet,and if your contention is that it did,than when did it end…
Don't get frustrated…..You are causing me to question and to prove things….thats a good thing.
The Levitical priesthood still exists today in orthadox Jewery
My contention is not that that any age has ended.
Only that things that were supposed to be forever were for only an age. And an age can end.Tim
Hi Tim4,
The priesthood can continue to exist without their sacrifices being continued or, if they are, being in any way effectual.
Hi Nick,How can the Levite priesthood continue if no one can trace their lineage back to Aaron?
Tim
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