Ronald Weinland: 2008 God&#39;s Final Witness

Participant

Hi AoP,
The great tribulation is the expression of God's wrath.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But we should be sons of the resurrection

Luke 20:36
for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

March 4, 2008 at 2:22 am#263681

Proclaimer

Participant

Oh yeah and a wireless Internet connection would be handy so you can keep posting on Heaven Net and say “I told you so”.

March 4, 2008 at 4:49 am#263682

Participant

Quote

And in Matthew Christ says he has come to “fulfill” not do away with what God gave to Moses.

Often, in the Greek scriptures, we find phrases like: “the Law and the Prophets” I believe according to scripture, this is referring to the Hebrew scriptures (Old testament) in general.

MATTHEW 7:12
““All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS mean.”

MATTHEW 22:40
“On these two commandments the whole LAW hangs, and THE PROPHETS.””

LUKE 16:16
““THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it.”

JOHN 1:45
“Philip found Na·thańa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in THE LAW, AND THE PROPHETS wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naźa·reth.””

ROMANS 3:21
“But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS;” (also see luke 24:44)

Yes, it is true that the “mosaic” law is in “the law,” meaning the first 5 books of the Bible. (That's why those 5 books are called “the law.”) So often there is overlap.
But when we find the specific phrase “law and prophets” it's clear it is talking about those two large parts of the Hebrew scriptures or the whole of the Hebrew scriptures.

The Law (The Pentateuch)
1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy

The Prophets
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Samuel (First and Second together as one book)
9. Kings (First and Second together as one book)
10. Isaiah
11. Jeremiah
12. Ezekiel
13. The Twelve Prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, as one book)

“The Law and the Prophets,” in the Bible, seems to be used as a generic term meaning the entire Hebrew Scriptures and not simply the first and second sections of those Scriptures (Mt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16).

When Paul referred to “the Law,” he quoted from Isaiah.—1Co 14:21; Isa 28:11.

Anyway, what this is all about is what I believe to be a misunderstanding of this scripture:

MATTHEW 5:17-19
““Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens.”

Based on all the scriptures that refer to or use the phrase “law and the prophets” I can't believe it is speaking specifically of the Mosaic law, but rather, it's speaking of the Hebrew scriptures as a whole.

4TH COMMANDMENT:
“Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work.” (Ex. 20:8-10)

Who were these commandments given to?

INTRODUCTION TO 10 COMMANDMENTS:
“I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.” (Ex. 20:2)

Note the way that the 4TH Commandment reads at Deuteronomy 5:12-15:
“Keeping the sabbath day to hold it sacred, . . . you must remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and Jehovah your God proceeded to bring you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. THAT IS WHY Jehovah your God commanded you to carry on the SABBATH DAY.”

In fact, this sabbath law was to be a sign between Jehovah and whom? Only Israel. At Exodus 31:13 it is written: “Speak to the SONS OF ISRAEL, saying, ‘Especially my SABBATHS YOU are to keep, for IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND YOU during your generations that you may know that I Jehovah am sanctifying you.’” (See also Ezekiel 20:10-12.)
And while some claim that the sabbath law applied from Eden onward, Moses plainly stated to his people:
“It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us, all those of us alive here today.”—Deut. 5:3.

“OHLAM”–AN INDEFINITE PERIOD OF TIME
But was not that sabbath to be a sign between Jehovah God and his people “forever”? (Ex. 31:17, Byington’s translation, also The New English Bible) No, because the Hebrew word here rendered “forever” is ‛oh·laḿ and merely means an indefinite period or uncertain time.
Ex. 31:16, 17: “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [“a perpetual covenant,” RS]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.”
Notice that sabbath observance was a sign between Jehovah and Israel; this would not be the case if everyone else were also obligated to keep the Sabbath. The Hebrew word rendered “perpetual” in RS is ‛oh·laḿ, which basically means a period of time that, from the standpoint of the present, is indefinite or hidden from sight but of long duration. That can mean forever, but not necessarily so. At Numbers 25:13 the same Hebrew word is applied to the priesthood, which later ended, according to Hebrews 7:12.
The fact that this word is used in regard to ever so many other features of the Law arrangement that have obviously passed away shows that it does not necessarily mean forever.—Ex. 12:14, 17, 24; 27:21; 28:43; 29:28.

Jesus, as a Jew born under the Law, he did observe the sabbath. (Gal. 4:4)
However, he also said that he came “TO FULFILL” the Law. (Matt. 5:17) How did this affect his disciples?
After Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension into heaven did they continue to keep the sabbath? No. But they did take advantage of local customs to preach to the people who usually gathered on the sabbath. Thus we read that Paul and his companions entered a synagogue on the sabbath. Why? Because that is when people were there. (Acts 13:14-16) And it was their listeners, accustomed to gathering on the sabbath, that asked that they be permitted to hear more on the following sabbath. (Acts 13:42-44) Whenever the sabbath is mentioned in the book of Acts, it is in connection with non-Christian worship, either at a synagogue or other place of prayer.—Acts 16:11-13; 17:1-3; 18:4.

“UNDER LAW”?
At Romans 6:14, it is written to Christians: “You are not under law.”
But the claim is made by some who hold out for sabbath-day observance that only those who break God’s law can be said to be “under Law,” and that all who keep it are “free from the Law.” But such an argument finds no support in God’s Word. Instead, the Bible says: “We know that all the things the Law says it addresses to those under the Law.”—Rom. 3:19.
Also refuting their position are the words of the apostle Paul found at Galatians 3:23, where it states that “before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law.” Certainly Jesus was not a breaker of the Law, and yet we read of him: “When the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law.” This one scripture of itself shows how specious is the argument that only those who break the Law could be said to be “und
er” it.—Gal. 4:4.

“Let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come.” (Col. 2:16, 17) In particular were the Galatian Christians reproved for observing certain days: “Now that you . . . have come to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things and want to slave for them over again? You are scrupulously observing days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.”—Gal. 4:9-11.
That Sabbath observance was not obligatory upon early Christians can be seen from Romans 14:5: “One man judges one day as above another; another man judges one day as all others; let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.”
The apostle Paul could not have put the matter this way if Christians were still bound by the ten commandments Could he?
In this regard it is indeed of interest that such early church “fathers” as Justin Martyr and Tertullian put Sabbath keeping in the same class as circumcision.

LAW VERSUS UNDESERVED KINDNESS
Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures the law of Moses is contrasted with the “grace” or undeserved kindness that came in with Jesus Christ. Thus we read that “the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17, Authorized Version) Yes, “Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.” By “end” is not meant merely the goal of the Law but its finish. Christians are therefore counseled: “Sin must not be master over you, seeing that you are not under law but under undeserved kindness.”—Rom. 10:4; 6:14.
The Law served its purpose, preparing the Israelites for their Messiah, even as we read: “The Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.” (Gal. 3:24, 25) For whom was the Law a tutor? Only for the Jews. Thus when Paul preached to non-Jews in Athens, some of them became believers, Christians, although they had never been under the Mosaic law as a tutor.—Acts 17:22-34.

Rom. 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.”
(Sabbath keeping was a part of that Law. God used Christ to bring that Law to its end. Our having a righteous standing with God depends on faith in Christ, not on keeping a weekly sabbath.) (Also Galatians 4:9-11; Ephesians 2:13-16)

Col. 2:13-16: “[God] kindly forgave us all our trespasses and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us . . . Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a SABBATH.”
(If a person was under the Mosaic Law and was judged guilty of profaning the Sabbath, he was to be stoned to death by the whole congregation, according to Exodus 31:14 and Numbers 15:32-35. Many who argue for sabbath keeping have reason to be glad that we are not under that Law. As shown in the scripture here quoted, an approved standing with God no longer requires observance of the sabbath requirement given to Israel.)

A side question:
Did Jesus refer to the Law in a manner that indicated division of it into two parts?
The answer is “no.”
Matt. 5:17, 21, 23, 27, 31, 38: “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.” Now, notice what Jesus included in his further comments. “You heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not murder [Ex. 20:13; the Sixth Commandment]’ . . . If, then, you are bringing your gift to the altar [Deut. 16:16, 17; no part of the Ten Commandments] . . . You heard that it was said, ‘You must not commit adultery [Ex. 20:14; the Seventh Commandment].’ Moreover it was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce [Deut. 24:1; no part of the Ten Commandments].’ You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth [Ex. 21:23-25; no part of the Ten Commandments].’” (So, Jesus mixed together references to the Ten Commandments and other parts of the Law, making no distinction between them. Should we treat them differently?)
When Jesus was asked, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” did he isolate the Ten Commandments? Instead, he replied: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matt. 22:35-40) If some cling to the Ten Commandments (Deut. 5:6-21), saying that they are binding on Christians but that the rest are not, are they not actually rejecting what Jesus said (quoting Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18) as to which commandments are the greatest?

When referring to the passing away of the Mosaic Law, does the Bible directly say that the Ten Commandments were included in what came to an end?
Rom. 7:6, 7: “Now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast . . . What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: ‘You must not covet.’” (Here, immediately after writing that Jewish Christians had been “discharged from the Law,” what example from the Law does Paul cite? The Tenth Commandment, thus showing that it was included in the Law from which they had been discharged.)
2 Cor. 3:7-11: “If the code which administers death and which was engraved in letters in stones came about in a glory, so that the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory that was to be done away with, why should not the administering of the spirit be much more with glory? . . . For if that which was to be done away with was brought in with glory, much more would that which remains be with glory.” (Reference is made here to a code that was “engraved in letters in stones” and it is said that “the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses” on the occasion when it was delivered to them. What is this describing? Exodus 34:1, 28-30 shows that it is the giving of the Ten Commandments; these were the commandments engraved on stone. Obviously these are included in what the scripture here says “WAS TO BE DONE AWAY WITH.”)

Regarding the new covenant, which has replaced the Law covenant, Hebrews 8:10 states:
“‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.’”

How much more effective such laws are than those engraved on stone tablets!

david

March 4, 2008 at 5:10 am#263683

Participant

Looking at Matthew 5 once again, the religious leaders consider Jesus a transgressor of God’s Law.

Keeping in mind all those other scriptures that speak of the “law and the prophets”Jesus says:
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets [that is, the Hebrew Scriptures as a whole]. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.”

Jesus' conduct did not violate any law of God; but it did run counter to Jewish traditions that were viewed as of greater importance than the Hebrew Scriptures.
The ancient code of Jewish law known as The Mishnah states: “Greater stringency applies to [the observance of] the words of the Scribes than to [the observance] of the words of the [written] Law.”—Tractate Sanhedrin, 11:3, translated by Herbert Danby.

Since they viewed Jesus as a transgressor of God’s law, the Pharisees and Herodians had plotted to kill him even before he gave his famous Sermon on the Mount.—Mark 3:6.

However, the Son of God assured his listeners that he had not come “to destroy” the Law. He neither disobeyed its commandments nor declared any part of it as not binding upon the Israelites.
Jesus came “to fulfill” that divine legislation. His sacrificial death also fulfilled prophetic types furnished by the Law’s system of animal sacrifices.—Dan. 9:26, 27; Heb. 10:1-9.

Furthermore, Jesus’ voluntary sacrifice of his human life for the benefit of mankind was a superlative display of love, which the Bible calls “the law’s fulfillment.”—Rom. 13:8-10; compare John 15:13.

Jesus gave further emphasis to his high regard for God’s law, saying: “Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens.”—Matt. 5:19.
A person might “break” one of the commandments by willfully disobeying it. Or, he might do what was viewed as even worse, namely, teaching fellow Jews subject to the Law that some of its commands were not binding. While the Law covenant was in force, it was an expression of God’s will for his people. Transgression or teaching things contrary to commandments that some may have viewed as even “least” in importance would be apostasy against God.—Compare James 2:10, 11.

The Law was given to lead the Israelites to the Messiah, who would be the principal ruler in God’s kingdom. (Gal. 3:24; Isa. 11:1-5; Dan. 7:13, 14) Hence, as far as getting into God’s kingdom was concerned, persons who broke God’s commands would “be called ‘least.’” They would not get into the kingdom at all.—Matt. 21:43; Luke 13:28.

On the other hand, those who observed the Mosaic law to the best of their ability would “be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens.” They would be the kind of persons who accepted Jesus as the Messiah and who subsequently were called to share Kingdom rule with him. (Luke 22:28-30; Rom. 8:16, 17)

Jesus next made a statement that may have startled his hearers: “I say to you that if your righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.”—Matt. 5:20.
The “scribes” of Jesus’ day were a class of men especially learned in the Law. Though some of them may have belonged to the Sadducees, many scribes were of the “sect” of the Pharisees, whose demands in regard to ceremonial cleanness, paying of tithes and other religious duties exceeded the Mosaic requirements.—Acts 15:5.

Those religious leaders held a narrow, legalistic viewpoint about gaining righteousness. They believed that it stemmed solely from deeds that literally conformed to the letter of the law. According to Jewish tradition, each time a individual observed a commandment, he earned “merit.” Every transgression was believed to incur “debt.” An excess of merits was understood to make a person “righteous,” whereas a superabundance of debts would make him “wicked.”

Such a legalistic view, however, fell far short of God’s standard of what is right. (Rom. 10:2, 3) Little attention was given to developing qualities such as love, justice, meekness, kindness and faithfulness. Yet God views these as more important than literal observance of legal precepts. (Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18; Mic. 6:8) With good reason Jesus exclaimed: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cummin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness.”—Matt. 23:23; compare Luke 11:42.

Christian worship must be, not mere external acts of piety that conform to a legal code, but “with spirit,” motivated from hearts full of faith and love.—Matt. 22:37-40; Gal. 2:16.

March 4, 2008 at 5:17 am#263684

Participant

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this here. There is a “sabbath” thread. But I specifically wanted to disucss this with the Ron people and not Nick. And I tend to see a lot of “happy sabbath” on this thread.

March 4, 2008 at 5:29 am#263685

Participant

And for those that don't like reading:
“Christ is the end of the Law.” (Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15) Hence, are no longer bound to make animal sacrifices, pay tithes, be circumcised or keep the Sabbath. The apostle Paul wrote: “By means of his flesh he [Christ] abolished . . . the Law of commandments.”—Eph. 2:15.

The phrase “the Law and the Prophets” refers to the Hebrew scriptures as a whole. (luke 16:16; john 1:45; rom 3:21; mat 7:12; 22:40)

“Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival . . . or of a sabbath.”—Col. 2:13-16.

Of course, the apostles did use the Sabbath as an occasion to preach to the Jews assembled in their synagogues. But they were no longer under obligation to keep the Sabbath.

Interestingly, at a council in Jerusalem to discuss the requirements for Gentiles, some believers who had been Pharisees wanted Gentile converts “to observe the law of Moses,” which included both circumcision and the Sabbath. But the decision of the apostles included neither. (Acts 15:1, 2, 5, 28, 29)

For those “scrupulously observing days and months,” the apostle Paul wrote: “I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.”—Gal. 4:10, 11.

Of course, there was a principle behind the sabbath and Godly principles never change. Laws (which are built on principles) can change.

What was the point of the Sabbath?

By stopping their other activities on the Sabbath, God’s ancient faithful people showed that His worship was the most important thing in their lives. As they read and discussed God’s Word on that day they showed their belief that “man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.”—Matt. 4:4.

Really, shouldn’t Christians show they believe these things every day of their lives?
If a Christian refuses to let his secular job interfere with his service to God, is he not keeping the spirit of the Sabbath? How about the Christian who buys out time every day to read God’s Word and apply its principles to his daily conduct?

Jesus healed people on the Sabbath as well as on other days, so isn’t every day a good day to apply the exhortation, “Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all”? (Gal. 6:10)

March 4, 2008 at 5:31 am#263686

Participant

I'm deleting this post because I posted it twice.

March 4, 2008 at 12:26 pm#263687

WaterAmerican

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 04 2008,06:31)

What was the point of the Sabbath?

hey david, I'm sorry I didn't read everything you wrote so I know my answer probably won't satisfy you, but atm I really don't have time to go through all of this. I can answer you this question about the point of the Sabbath though.

The seventh-day Sabbath pictures the 1000-year period of God's rule on earth coming after the first 6,000 years of man's self-rule on earth. The entire reason we have a seven-day week is because it pictures God's plan for mankind (7,000 year period). So the point of keeping the Sabbath, and the reason why it's such an important command, is that man is to be reminded of God's purpose being worked out here below. That's the main point of it. That's why you don't keep the first day of the week, but the seventh day. That plan has never changed from OT to NT times. That's why the world is ingorant of God's plan and the relevance of the times we're living in. Then again, the Jews are keeping the Sabbath and they don't understand this simple fact either. That's one of the reasons why they're wrong also.

And, concerning the question – “shouldn't we worship God on every day of the week?”. Yes, of course we should. Keeping the Sabbath doesn't mean you let down the other six days of the week. Quite the contrary, actually, you put into practice what God teaches you on the Sabbath. But if God commands you to come before Him on the Sabbath day, it's not for man to reason around that. It's an appointment (appointed time, as it says in the Bible in Hebrew) with God. It's a commandment just like “do not muder” or “do not steal”. Breaking the Sabbath command is just as serious as breaking those. All 10 commandments are to be kept. It's just a reality.

Anyway, I just hope anyone has an open mind to consider these things. There's no point in debating this either so I'm not going to as long as people already have their mind made up and refuse to consider the possibility that they MIGHT be wrong about this.

March 4, 2008 at 2:09 pm#263688

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (david @ Mar. 04 2008,15:49)

Who were these commandments given to?

INTRODUCTION TO 10 COMMANDMENTS:
“I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.” (Ex. 20:2)

God sanctified the seventh day before he even created man. Also if you want to say that that this commandment applied only to the physical offspring of Israel/Jacob, how do you know you aren't one yourself? The Jews are only one tribe (Judah), you may well be a descendant of one of the other 11 tribes and not know it, and therefore be breaking the 4th comandment. Even if you are purely Gentile, you can be spiritually grafted onto the olive tree…

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy : and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

What is the olive tree?

JEREMIAH 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

The Olive tree is Israel. So whether you are either physical or spiritual offspring, you are part of Israel, this commandment like all the others does apply to you.

March 4, 2008 at 2:45 pm#263689

stosh64

Participant

Excellent posts David.

March 4, 2008 at 9:09 pm#263690

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 04 2008,13:10)

Hi AoP,
We must be clothed in imperishable heavenly garments like to the Son.

1Cor 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Greetings Nick…..I would think there would be a goodly number of people alive at the end of the tribulation and at the same time they will all be carnel.
These people will be governed by the government of God
and after repentance will be spirit filled..

Iam a little confused with the time line with respect to the
millenium and the 100 year period after…
I would think that during the milenium man would still experience death…And the group scripture speaks of that will be changed in the twinkling of an eye are those who are alive
at the end of the milenium.
In addition the gift of eternal life comes at the end of the 100
year great white throne judgement period.
The exception to my premis would be of course be the 144000

March 4, 2008 at 9:14 pm#263691

Participant

Hi TJ,
Where is this 100 year judgement?
Dividing sheep from goats seems rather easier that that.

March 4, 2008 at 9:34 pm#263692

Participant

Hi tj,

You say
“Greetings Nick…..I would think there would be a goodly number of people alive at the end of the tribulation and at the same time they will all be carnel.”
Yes

“These people will be governed by the government of God”

Yes and they will have no rain if they disobey.

Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

“and after repentance will be spirit filled..”

It only says this about the Jews[resurrected too? [Ez37]

Jl2
23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

March 4, 2008 at 9:57 pm#263693

Participant

Nick….When we speak of “Jews”in this context you must realize that we are speaking of a time when all are under judgement and are obliged to live according to law…and in closing I would think at this time we would all qualify as spiritual jews.

March 4, 2008 at 10:02 pm#263694

Participant

Nick….with reference to the 100 year period I had spoken of…..I need to clearly define
what is mentioned in Rev 20 v3 as a season…(ref. the time period after the 1000yrs that satan is allowed to conduct business)He will be loosed among those ressurected at the end of the miliniunal reighn…

March 4, 2008 at 10:02 pm#263695

Participant

Hi TJ,
The new law is that of the Spirit for those in Christ.
Some gentiles,the saved gentiles, but not all the heathen, are grafted onto the tree of Israel.
Rom 9
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom11
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

March 4, 2008 at 10:16 pm#263696

Participant

Nick….When asked by his deciples “Who is a Jew” Jesus answered “Any one who keeps my commandments in spirit is a jew”…Forgive Iam at a loss for chapter and verse…but it will come to me.

March 4, 2008 at 10:20 pm#263697

Participant

Hi TJ,
Perhaps you mean what Paul wrote in Romans 2
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

March 4, 2008 at 10:22 pm#263698