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Romans 9:5 (NIV)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.Romans 9:5
to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.From what I understand, many Trinitarian scholars agree that this verse is not saying that Jesus is God, while nearly all Trinitarian Apologists will use the verse as support that he is God.
If you move the commas and full stops around, you can get 3 different meanings. NOTE: punctuation is not found in the biblical texts. And because Trinitarian scholars themselves admit more than one translation is grammatically possible, the question then becomes what Paul really intended and this can be determined by comparing it with other scriptures and context. In other words, the correct view is the one that agrees with other scriptures that are clear and have only one meaning. The 3 possible meaning of Romans 9:5 are as follows:
1. Christ according to the flesh who is God over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.
2. Christ according to the flesh who is over all. God be blessed to the ages. Amen.
3. Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.On the outset, using this verse to prove that Jesus is God has a 1 in 3 chance of being right because the other 2 views do not say that Jesus is God. However that 1 in 3 chance is reduced substantially when one realises that the term “be blessed to the ages” elsewhere in scripture is talking about the Father. So to say that this verse is applying that to Jesus then means that this verse as referring to Jesus is the one exception in scripture where it is not used of the Father.
I got most of this information from this page which I think does an excellent job at looking at this issue. Feel free to have a read for yourself and make pertinent points and relevant copy and pastes in this discussion.
Hi:
The “YLT” has it this way:
Quote Rom 9:3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ — for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
Jesus Christ is blessed of God forever. Also, the scriptures must be line upon line, and precept upon precept. Regardless of whether or not someone can use this scripture to state that Jesus is God, he has already stated himself that he is not God, and so the arguement is null.
Love in Christ,
MartyT8,
You forgot to include the version of your second quote.
The ancient Greeks would have something to serve as punctuation but it was possibly context.
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 24 2013,06:53) Hi: The “YLT” has it this way:
Quote Rom 9:3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ — for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
Jesus Christ is blessed of God forever. Also, the scriptures must be line upon line, and precept upon precept. Regardless of whether or not someone can use this scripture to state that Jesus is God, he has already stated himself that he is not God, and so the arguement is null.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyyes I agree with you ,seeing it in a other way would not be in line with the rest of scriptures,
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 24 2013,11:53) Hi: The “YLT” has it this way:
Quote Rom 9:3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ — for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
Jesus Christ is blessed of God forever. Also, the scriptures must be line upon line, and precept upon precept. Regardless of whether or not someone can use this scripture to state that Jesus is God, he has already stated himself that he is not God, and so the arguement is null.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty…………I agree with you on this also. The proper understanding is not that Jesus is a God , but is God “Blessed” forever. That does line up with other scriptures to. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2013,11:51) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 24 2013,11:53) Hi: The “YLT” has it this way:
Quote Rom 9:3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ — for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
Jesus Christ is blessed of God forever. Also, the scriptures must be line upon line, and precept upon precept. Regardless of whether or not someone can use this scripture to state that Jesus is God, he has already stated himself that he is not God, and so the arguement is null.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty…………I agree with you on this also. The proper understanding is not that Jesus is a God , but is God “Blessed” forever. That does line up with other scriptures to. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Your view doesn't fit because the way you word it “God blessed” would require both words to be adjectives and they aren't both adjectives. God is written as the predicate nominative from what I can tell. It definitely is not written as an adjective. Sorry.Taken from the page linked in the first post.
Pauline Terminology: Eulogetes
A review of some similar expressions in the Bible, and especially from Paul, is required so that one can examine his vocabularly, writing style and thought. The first two passages are not Paul's, however, they are included to show that all New Testament occurrences of the word eulogetes (“Blessed be”) exclusively refer to God the Father.
“Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One.” (Mark 14:61).
“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel.” (Luke 1:68).
“They changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed to the ages. Amen.” (Romans 1:25).
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:3).
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ephesians 1:3).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:3).
“They changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed to the ages. Amen” (Romans 1:25).
“The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ knows that I am not lying, he being blessed to the ages.” (2 Corinthians 11:31).
“one God and Father of all, he over all and through all and in all.”
(Ephesians 4:6).“from whom the Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.” (Romans 9:5).
Notice how the above translation of Romans 9:5 harmonizes perfectly with the rest of the Scripture verses while the Trinitarian translation does not. Every single occurrence of the Greek word eulogetes (“blessed be”) in the New Testament is a direct reference to God the Father. The Trinitarian apologist would have us believe that Romans 9:5 should be one exception.
The word eulogetes is variously translated as “be praised” or “be blessed.” The “Blessed be” is the Jewish berakah, an ascription of praise to God the Father. The phrase appears to be an allusion to Psalm 41:13, “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.” And the only instance where Pauls says someone is “over all” in this manner is at Ephesians 4:6 where we find God the Father is the one identified as being “over all.”
Pauline Terminology: Paul's Language
Also carefully compare 2 Corinthians 11:31 and Romans 9:1-5 and note how Paul claims he is not lying in each of these passages. It may very well be that Paul wishes to reinforce that he is not lying to his audience by adding the berakah, “God be blessed to the ages.”
“I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying…. and from whom Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.” (Romans 9:5).
“The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed to the ages, knows that I do not lie.” (2 Cor 11:31).
Pauline Terminology: The Jewish Berakah
It is well known that the word “Blessed” or “Blessed be” is an ascription of praise used exclusively for God in the Old Testament. Some Trinitarians also often try to claim that the word “blessed [be]” should be placed before the word “God” in Romans 9:5 if Paul had intended it to refer to God the Father and not Christ. This is however a very misguided grasping at straws. The LXX at Psalm 69:19-20 does indeed have it both before and after in the very same passage. We also have firsthand evidence that Paul himself who wrote Romans 9:5 does indeed elsewhere use this phrase to refer to God without placing the word “blessed be” before the word “God” in his sentence structure, as we can see in 2 Corinthians 11:31 where it is placed after the word “God.”
“The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed to ages, knows that I do not lie” (o qeoV kai pathr tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou oiden o wn euloghtoV eiV touV aiwnaV oti ou yeudomai. (2 Cor 11:31).
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 25 2013,05:15) T8, You forgot to include the version of your second quote.
The ancient Greeks would have something to serve as punctuation but it was possibly context.
Sorry Kerwin. It was the RSV.
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