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Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 12 2008,11:15)
Nick;The woman is the church, we are the Jerusalem of God. The scripture even gives the no. of days 1260. The manchild is the company of sons of God which are made ruler over all his goods. This is one of the seven parables which apply to this time. John 16 illustrates the woman in labor, so does I Thes. 5.
Steven
Hi Steve,
Does the church give birth to christians?
To join the church we become one with Christ and the church does not give birth to us but those in Christ form the church.Nick;
Here's the point. Paul said that the believers in Christ are the Israel of God, not those of the flesh. What makes a person in the eyes of God today is if they are circumcised in the heart, not the flesh. Romans 2:28-29
Hi Steve,
But the one sheep that begets the other sheep is not a sheep but a collection of sheep?
She is separated from her offspring??Hi steve,
So maybe you should rethink your analogy and draft it rather more on biblical foundations?Paul referred to a man and a woman being joined as one. He said this is a great mystery which speaks of Christ and his Church being one. The woman represents his church. That's what Paul said and that's the truth I was trying to convey. The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church, which is the collective body of Christ which brings forth a manchild. This is also in John, Thessalonians, and Isaiah.
Paul also said in Galatians 4 that Sarah and Hagar are allegories of which Sarah being the freewoman is an example of Jerusalem above and then says is the mother of us all.
Revelation is in the bible for the same reason your on this earth…
GOD put it there.
Just like he put you here.Hi Steve,
From AOL
,
Revelation Chapter 12
All scripture is taken from the King James VersionRev. 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Some say the woman represents the church, let me ask you a question: Did the church give birth to Christ, or is it the other way around?
The woman is Israel. The crown of twelve stars represents the 12 tribes. The following verse will support this:Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. Joseph was the twelfth star. The 12 tribes. The tribe of Joseph is listed in Rev. 7:8 among the 144,000.
Quote Rev. 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Some say the woman represents the church, let me ask you a question: Did the church give birth to Christ, or is it the other way around?
The woman is Israel. The crown of twelve stars represents the 12 tribes. The following verse will support this:Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. Joseph was the twelfth star. The 12 tribes. The tribe of Joseph is listed in Rev. 7:8 among the 144,000.
Nick;
The kingdom of God as taught by Christ does not support this view of natural Israel being the woman. Jesus taught just the opposite. He said the hour is come that true worshippers will not be worshipping in this mountain. He prophesied the judgment upon natural Israel not the salvation. Under the new covenant, they must come to Christ the same way as all of us.
Paul brings this out many times. He said much of what was preached was not to natural Israel but to the believers in Christ. Only the believers make up the true tribes of Israel. Paul said they are not all Israel who are of natural Israel.
Hi Steve,
Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
God has not forgotten His chosen people and we gain salvation through that tree of faith.
Nick;
In verse 27 God says this is my covenant with them when I will take away their sins. This is the same passage of scripture quoted by Paul in Hebrews that was fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ. There is no separate covenant or one to come with natural Israel. That is deception. Paul warns of the anti-christ that the natural Jews believe is their savior.
God's chosen people are those who believe in Christ. Jesus gave the parable and concluded that the kingdom would be taken away with natural Israel and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.
Hi Steve,
Jesus shared the blood of the new covenant with his brothers and when the Jews repent and accept him they will share too. One with each other in Christ in GodQuote Hi Steve,
Jesus shared the blood of the new covenant with his brothers and when the Jews repent and accept him they will share too. One with each other in Christ in GodCorrect. It's been going on for 2000 years. They can accept or reject.
Hi Steve,
If the manchild represents believers then Christ is the head of that body and the child would be headless without him.
If the woman is the Church then Christ is also the head of the woman??Your symbolism is not resilient.
Scriptural truth is.Quote Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.He asks a question: Hath God cast away Israel?
THEN, notice his answer and how he explains his answer. He says: “FOR” I am an Israelite.
Yes, he was an Israelite (fleshly) but a Christian. He had to become a follower of Christ. Those that reject Christ…Jesus himself said you are either on my side or against me. How would God view those who reject his very Son? Of course, Israelites are given the same chance as everyone else. He hasn't rejected them, because as Paul stated: “FOR” I also am an Israelite.The “Israel of God” spoken of in the Greek scriptures refers not to fleshly Israel (“your house is abandoned to you”) but to spiritual israel.
Does not Romans also say:
ROMANS 2:28-29
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”Quote He asks a question: Hath God cast away Israel?
THEN, notice his answer and how he explains his answer. He says: “FOR” I am an Israelite.
Yes, he was an Israelite (fleshly) but a Christian. He had to become a follower of Christ. Those that reject Christ…Jesus himself said you are either on my side or against me. How would God view those who reject his very Son? Of course, Israelites are given the same chance as everyone else. He hasn't rejected them, because as Paul stated: “FOR” I also am an Israelite.The “Israel of God” spoken of in the Greek scriptures refers not to fleshly Israel (“your house is abandoned to you”) but to spiritual israel.
Does not Romans also say:
ROMANS 2:28-29
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”Amen David;
I've wondered about Romans 11 for years then I saw the same language of “this is my covenant with them when I will take away their sins” in Hebrews 8, which refers to the new covenant in Christ Jesus.
All Paul is saying when he says blindness in part is happened to Israel until the Gentiles come in, is that if the Jews would not have rejected Christ then the gospel would not have been preached to the Gentiles. All of the Israelites of the flesh that are going to be saved will be saved in this manner. There's no actual ambiguity until someone imputes the doctrine that Jesus warned of: do not begin to say within yourselves that ye are the children of Abraham.
What's so astonishing is that most of the church is teaching exactly what Jesus preached against proclaiming there is a special covenant with natural Israel that is yet to be fulfilled.
Jesus taught against this. He said the kingdom would be taken from them. He said none of them that were bidden to my supper will partake. Most importantly, he said his brothers and sisters are only those who do his Father's will, which is in heaven. Anyone that rejects Christ cannot be considered a brother or sister of Jesus Christ.
Jesus would hardly recognize his own family because he wanted to emphasize this truth.
Steven
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