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Hi Rudy,
The Holy Spirit was speaking through Paul when he told the Athenians was not far from any of them. Of course the Spirit of God is not limited to the Spirit of Christ in us, as you say.Why do you think “he that letteth” is Christ in us? Do you mean we are raptured away and that opens the door for the antichrist to become manifest? Interesting take.
Some are saved through the tribulation by not taking the mark or worshipping the beast. Yes they have and are responding to the Word and the Spirit. I guess it is unlikely that the saved will be present with them at that time.
Yes, it is Christ in us (the body). He that letteth (withholds, restrains) is He who has His authority given Him by the Father. He awaits permission from the Father to gather His body. Then the righteous are judged, then He recieves the title deed of the earth from the Father and begins to loose the seals.
When He is taken out of the way His body, the church (He being the Head) is taken out of the way.
He (us his body) have already had judgement passed on us the price paid at the cross. There is nothing more to pay. The tribulation is Yaweh's judgement on those who took the “mark of the beast” and went to to battle against Christ. They will be destroyed for rejecting Him and loving iniquity (darkness) rather than righteousness (light). After which when “it is done” Rev. 16:17, the separation of the inhabitants that remain (separation of sheep/goats) will take place bringing only the 144,000 sealed and those who worshipped not the beast but came to repentance into the millenium (sabbath) rest.Two quotes of interest several pages back(passerby?):
1″People will still repent during the tribulation so the Spirit of God must still be present and without a moral voice in the world lawlessness will abound like Soddom & Gomorrah and the days of Noah!”
?? will they still repent? – let the wicked become more wicked and let the righteous become more righteous NT, and
even though 1/3 of mankind is killed, the rest continues on their way without thinking of repenting REVELATION
and as in the days of NOAH (8only) !!! YESHUA
??also, lawlessness already abounds, right?2″The causing of “oblations to cease,” with regards to the spiritual 3rd temple, would have nothing to do with animal sacrifice. But we could be persecuted as other christians have been from the times of Christ.”
???if you're not being persecuted right now, I wonder if you are standing up for the testimony of Yeshua – many today, 1905 through 2005, are dying, suffering, being put out of house and home and job and family, in Mexico, China, the U.S.A.!!!, et al, with more persecution, a lot more than ever before, already at hand…
Yahweh's Shalom to all who trust Him like a little boy trusting his father , YEAH! jeff in tulsa w/2sons
seeking disciples of Yeshua who trust Him more than life itself.
if this belongs on a different post, so be it.
if you know any disciple of Yeshua who has given up everything to follow Him, or wants to, please rsvp, I haven't been able to find any others in tulsa nor on the internet who aren't trying to self-protect their own life at the cost of trampling underfoot the truth and letting the poor be oppressed and murdered. (Pete Snyder in china may be a fine example of true disciple, I haven't had the pleasure of meeting him nor an opportunity that I know of).p.s. when 'holy' is an true adjective, a lot changes.
Yes, the 144,000 are the Jews 12,000 from each tribe.
Rev. 7:9-17 Millions will repent during the tribulation, but, at the cost of their lives.
Look back at the Fifth Seal of Rev. 6:9-11One can only guess at how many church going people will miss the rapture and enter the tribulation only to realize they have made the gravest of mistakest, they played church rather than being the church.
I can't tell how many testimonies I've heard of well meaning people coming to Christ after years of playing church!
Being “born again” has become a trampled upon phrase, but they will find out that He “never knew you”
i looked up those last two refs in revelation chptr 6 and 7,
nothing in those verses/chapters seems to indicate that those with white robes were ones to repent during the persecution, nor because of it, but rather they died because they held fast to their testimony and the blood of the Lamb –they entered the trib/persecution already righteous by faith, and, as promised in Scripture, the enemy was given power over them to kill them…Quote (yeshuaslavejeff @ April 09 2005,21:32) 2″The causing of “oblations to cease,” with regards to the spiritual 3rd temple, would have nothing to do with animal sacrifice. But we could be persecuted as other christians have been from the times of Christ.” ???if you're not being persecuted right now, I wonder if you are standing up for the testimony of Yeshua – many today, 1905 through 2005, are dying, suffering, being put out of house and home and job and family, in Mexico, China, the U.S.A.!!!, et al, with more persecution, a lot more than ever before, already at hand…
Hi YSJ,Yahweh's shalom to you too. Really good point about Noah's 8 there.
With regards to persecution for the name of Christ, there are degrees and types of persecutions—and most christians on some level have had the privilege of sharing somewhat in the sufferings of Christ, but what I have experienced is nothing to be compared to the faithful who daily are persecuted in untold ways and I don't want to insult them by comparing myself to them. But have I suffered rejection and insult for his namesake? Yes. Have I had to make hard choices? Yes.
Do I pray for grace and more grace? Yes.Lets recap:
The body of Christ has been removed (2 Thessolonians 2:7 & Rev 4:1), Yeshua has received the scroll (title deed to the earth from the Father), the Ant-Christ Revealed (2 Thessolonians 2:3 & Rev 6:1), The witnesses have begun their ministry Prophesying the events of the Seals 1-7 & Trumpets 1-6 (Rev. 11:1-14),
Rev.6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord), and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev.7: 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The Greek has the article “the” preceding the word “tribulation” defining it as a distinct period of time, i.e. Jacobs Trouble.
Other scriptures say we as believers will suffer tribulation in this world but the article “the” is left out. The translation is not one of specific but rather generallized trouble.
So the saints here in this chapter come to Christ during “The Great Tribulation”, “Jacobs Trouble”
Note: The KJV leaves out the article “the” but it is there in the greek.
Good points Rudy,
There are three groups specified in Rev 20.4f entering the millenial reign.
Those on thrones[the saved in Jesus],
Those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and
Those who had not worshipped the beast or his image or received the Mark.So the tribulation is complete by this time.
You are 100% correct! The millenium will be as the earth was in the begining of creation (without the tree of Life and temptation). It's is hard for us to imagine a world that will feed it's inhabitants with no “sweat of their brow” The fertility and fruitfullness are beyond words!
All non-glorified people who survive the tribulation to enter the millenium will be required to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Failure to do so will bring a curse on the fruitfullness of their locality they inhabit, Zechariah Ch.14.
The earth will be governed by us according to rewards at the Judgement seat of Christ. We will be glorified as will all those martyred during the Great Tribulation and the government will be directly from Christ through us to the inhabitants! That's the ruling and reigning!
The inhabitants born in the Sabbath will be tempted at the end of the millenium and those who rebel will have thier part in the Lake of Fire (second Death).
The population will explode and the world will be “Heaven on Earth” (so to speak).
It's gonna be wonderful!
Good post,
It upsets my mid trib theory though…. but it was only a theory.unless the wedding feast fits in here. When do you think the wedding feast is held?Quote (Rudy @ April 08 2005,21:58) I don't disagree in the least. The trouble with allegorizing is if not allowing scripture to interpret scripture you end up with the same issue as making Christ the Almighty, then it opens the door to interpretation rather than God saying what He means and meaning what He says. For example, we all use figures of speech and that can be problematic depending on our culture:
Luke 24:32 – And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Does this mean their hearts were on fire? Of course not!
Is it or is it not possible for fire to come out of their mouths? Are not all things possible with God?
I believe that by their word they will rebuke their attacker/s in the name of the Lord and they will literally burn on the spot, so it might actually appear as though the flames came from their mouth.
Hi Rudy,
If commonsense is allowed to guide you as far as hearts being on fire then why is commonsense not allowed some rein in Revelation when logic gets consumed by inconsistency?Allegorising is one thing but discovering hidden divine allegories is quite another. Prov 25.2
A figure of speech is not an allegory from God.
We say, “I'm fixin' to do that.” Here in Texas and the world thinks we are fixing something that is broke. That is not what the phrase means, it simply means “about to do”.
The events in the Old Testament actually happened. To deny that and say they are allegory only is to deny the veracity of God's word. Yes the events had another meaning which is a message for us today, but, the events REALLY happened.
Just as in the book of Revelations, the events actually happen. There may or may not be an allegorical meaning, but, don't look for the allegory without understanding the true event first! Then “IF” another meaning is there it can be properly ascertained!
Hi Rudy,
I find myself in agreement with most of what you say. I agree we need to check out the obvious before we start looking for the obscure. If ever there was a book that shows we need the Spirit's help in deciphering though it is Revelation.for an understanding more in line with the word usage (like 150 to 1 or so) google:
Part 5: Nothing Is Removed In 2 Thessalonians 2:7
By Ed TarkowskiThe first English translation directly from the original tongue.
as it was written, and caused to be written, by them which heard it. To whom also our saviour Christ Jesus commanded that they should preach it unto all creatures.
2 Thessolonians 2: 2:1
We beseech |beseek| you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesu Christ, and in that we shall assemble unto him,
2:2
that ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, and be not troubled, neither by spirit, neither by words, nor yet by letter, which should seem to come from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a departing first, and that that sinful man |man of sin| be opened, the son of perdition
2:4
which is an adversary, and is exalted above all that is called god, or that is worshipped: |called God or Gods service| so that he shall sit |sitteth as God| in the temple of god, and shew himself as |boasteth himself to be| god. {so that he shall sit as God in temple of god}
2:5
Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth: even that he might be uttered at his time.
2:7
For already the mystery of iniquity worketh. Only he that holdeth, let him now hold, until it {hit} be taken out of the way, {For the mystery of that iniquity doeth he all ready work which only looketh, till he which now only letteth be taken out of the way}
2:8
and then shall that wicked be uttered, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the appearance of his coming,
2:9
even him whose coming is by |after| the working of Satan, with all lying power, signs, and wonders:
2:10
and in all deceivableness of unrighteousness, among them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth, {trueth} that they might have been saved.
2:11
And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe lies:
2:12
that all they might be damned which believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.Comparisons of original English Translations:
http://pcministry.com/compare/2Thessalonians.htm
Textus Receptus interlinear:
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