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Hi Cubes, cheers for the response. I enjoy reading your posts.
Quote Now to answer your question: Jesus was referring to the 2nd Temple built by Zerubabbel and his fellow returnees from captivity. It was not the Temple that Solomon built.
You are correct, my mistake.Quote Matt 24:1-3 recently caught my attention in a way it hadn't before, which led to my questions and reassessment of the viewpoint you present: ….
- 1. My point is that the Temple in question is in the above verse.
Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”Cubes, notice the disciples are asking Jesus three questions here:
1. when will these things happen?
2. and what {will be} the sign of Your coming?
3. and of the end of the age?I believe question 1 was in response to this statement by Jesus:
“Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” (Matt 24:2)
Here Jesus was most definately referring to the 70AD sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans. Interestingly, the temple caught fire in the seige and the Romans had to literally seperate the bricks to collect the gold that had melted between them. Luke records this statement too and goes on to explain why (this is a digression, but an interesting one):
Luke 19:44
and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”Jesus held the Jews accountable for knowing the prophetic (mathematical) significance of Daniel 9:25,26.
Quote 25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. Not only was the messiah's visitation prophesied but it was possible to pinpoint the exact time he would appear from the data Daniel provided. 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days (the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year). In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C. Jesus presented Himself as King (Lk 19:37-44, also see Zech 9:9) on April 6, 32 A.D. The period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D. (correcting for leap years) is 173,880 days. Exactly the same number as was prophecied by Daniel to the very day! Incredible precision.
anyway….getting back to my original point. Jesus was asked to explain things that would happan in both 70AD as well as that preceding his coming and the end of the age. So two windows of time are in view in Matt 24. Some of Matt 24 relates to the events of 70AD (e.g. v 9,10) and some relates to end time events. Possibly both are in view in the same verses. Jesus was asked for inside knowledge of both events. Perhaps they (the disciples) didn't realise the (2nd) temple's destruction and the end time events were divided by a period of time 1935 yrs (and counting) in duration, but Jesus did and he gave them descriptions of both. The AOD happans in the tribulation period though, because:
1) Paul explains that it is the antichrist that causes the abomination in the temple (this didn't happan in 70AD)
2) Matthew records Jesus saying that following the AOD a period of unprecidented horror will follow, and if “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened”. This prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
3) Daniel explains that He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' then In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. then on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation”. These prohecies have also not yet been fulfilled.
Is this not reasonable?
God BlessHi Is and cubes,
It is interesting to compare the Mark and Luke versions of Mt 24.14Mt says the AOD is standing in the “holy place”
Mk 13 say it is standing”where it should not be”
And Luke 21.20 says “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognoise that her desolation is near” and warns the inhabitants to flee to the mountains.So for us the key is the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies. The “HOLY PLACE” is the centre of the temple in the OT. But could it be Jerusalem herself in the New Covenant? Does a temple have to be rebuilt to house this “Holy place”?
Cubes is right that we form a temple individually and collectively. The place that comes down in Rev 21 is “The New Jerusalem” containing a temple.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 03 2005,04:13) Here Jesus was most definately referring to the 70AD sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans. Interestingly, the temple caught fire in the seige and the Romans had to literally seperate the bricks to collect the gold that had melted between them. Luke records this statement too and goes on to explain why (this is a digression, but an interesting one): Luke 19:44
and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”Jesus held the Jews accountable for knowing the prophetic (mathematical) significance of Daniel 9:25,26.
Quote 25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. Not only was the messiah's visitation prophesied but it was possible to pinpoint the exact time he would appear from the data Daniel provided. 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days (the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year). In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C. Jesus presented Himself as King (Lk 19:37-44, also see Zech 9:9) on April 6, 32 A.D. The period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D. (correcting for leap years) is 173,880 days. Exactly the same number as was prophecied by Daniel to the very day! Incredible precision.
anyway….getting back to my original point. Jesus was asked to explain things that would happan in both 70AD as well as that preceding his coming and the end of the age. So two windows of time are in view in Matt 24. Some of Matt 24 relates to the events of 70AD (e.g. v 9,10) and some relates to end time events. Possibly both are in view in the same verses. Jesus was asked for inside knowledge of both events. Perhaps they (the disciples) didn't realise the (2nd) temple's destruction and the end time events were divided by a period of time 1935 yrs (and counting) in duration, but Jesus did and he gave them descriptions of both. The AOD happans in the tribulation period though, because:
1) Paul explains that it is the antichrist that causes the abomination in the temple (this didn't happan in 70AD)
2) Matthew records Jesus saying that following the AOD a period of unprecidented horror will follow, and if “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened”. This prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
3) Daniel explains that He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' then In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. then on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation”. These prohecies have also not yet been fulfilled.
Is this not reasonable?
God Bless
Thanks, Is.1:18, likewise. Your digression was a very good one, BTW. Good post.How many years would you say 173,880 days is equivalent to—483?
69 weeks X 7 days = 483 Days
483 Days x 360 days = 173,880 days
173,880 days /360 days/7 days = 69 weeksI googled this topic: “destruction of the Jewish temple” and got these returns. I don't endorse any but I thought it might be helpful to examine some of the same historical data on the topic, particularly with regards to the extent and nature of the 70/135 AD attacks on Israel.
http://www.google.com/search?….+temple
If you have any related links, please advise us.
Taken from this website I found on google:
Quote Titus pressed the siege of Jerusalem, which was crowded with people because of the paschal festivities, cutting off the water and food supply. The besieged were terribly hard pressed by these tactics, as well as by the insufferable heat. Those who tried to escape were captured and crucified before the very walls as an example to others. According to Josephus, such famine that a mother actually ate the flesh of her own small son. He tells of 2,500,000 assembled at the last Passover just before the city was taken by Titus. 1,000,000 perished in the siege, 347,000 perished in other places. Of the remainder, 97,000 were carried into captivity and 11,000 starved through neglect or sullen refusal of food. On July 17th the daily sacrifices were interrupted. Some weeks later, after the legions had assaulted the walls and gained entrance like an irresistible stream, the Romans put to the sword all Jews whom they happened to encounter. Titus desired greatly that the Temple should be spared, and promised to spare the Jews if they would stop their resistance. Several times he sent Josephus to persuade his countrymen, but the providence of God directed otherwise. First the Jews themselves set fire to the court of the temple, and afterwards the Romans. Fire consumed the buildings and the temple went up. But the prophecy of the Redeemer had to be fulfilled; the destruction of the temple occurred on the Jewish Sabbath, August 10th, 70. When Jerusalem was captured, the temple was burned and scavengers would turn over every stone to retrieve the melted gold. The Jewish people were expatriated, and never since has sacrifice been offered up to God on Jewish altars.
http://latter-rain.com/Israel/jewar.htm
If 2.5 million of Israel gathered for Passover, and 1 million+ perished, that is nearly half the population. That is noteworthy. Besides the sentence, “and never since has sacrifice been offered up to God on Jewish altars.” To me that would signify a definite ceasing of oblation. It's been nearly 2,000 years of no physical oblation and that is significant.
Hi,
Every time I look at the book of Revelation I am more convinced we are missing all the clues God gave us to unlock the puzzle.This is what I think.It is sequential to about the middle of the book.
Then there are several chapters that are enlargements of important areas.[Eg The whore of Babylon in Ch 17-18]
Some are repeats with enlargements from one perspective[eg Ch11 Church in the tribulation] and some from another[eg The Beast and world politics in the tribulation].
Bearing these things in mind we can line up certain things as they are shown. This includes the tribulation,the return of Jesus, the rapture etc. Possibly events such as the great earthquake too.
I would love to get so much of this sorted out but who is interested?
I am confident I could sort it all out. I really believe that we can find all of the Truth about it all. God has been revealing to me anything I have set my heart the desire and zeal to learn. God knows by searching my mind that I'm not letting the teachings of men stop me from learning the Truth and I'm not putting their teachings before God's. I therefore, denounce everything I learn from men when faced with opposing teachings from the Word of God. Its not that I don't listen to those men as I think having listened to many has helped me to understand some things and give me an idea also at how the devil's craft prospers also.
I know many that will go to a minister or one they trust for the Truth and get the wrong information. I know many that reach for their church's literature or other materials and don't give much further scrutiny to its content or open many pages of the Word of God to find the Truth. This is putting men before God and worshipping idols. I believe until one fully commits themselves to pull everything they can from the Word of God that they may never get the whole Truth. So I do feel we can know the Truth. I'm not sure the whole canon of the Bible is complete however.
Paul
Hi trettep,
It is good to have confirmation too from others who also are guided by the Spirit. Do you meet them walking along the same path or are all others on the wrong path? I agree most are wrong but not all surely? I am sure we are meant to work with others and are not meant to be alone. I enjoy the way God sends people to show us we are on the right track as Jesus guides his body on earth. Even this week cubes has twice written things that have just come to me and that is fellowship in the Spirit in action. What experiences have you had of this nature if I may ask?No, I don't meet anyone else that knows the Truth. Since I believe the Gospel is about getting to the Kingdom of Heaven through Faith in Jesus Christ – I don't find many others that believe that as I do. And when they say they do – I often find that they denouce Christ by the doctrines they accept. I also know that fellowship is being used as a testing tool by God to see who is approved. I see people wanting to align with like thinkers instead of standing alone with the Truth. I judge the truth by Christ example. He was persecuted and said his followers would be also. That doesn't sound like a world embracing His message to me. Therefore, when people persecute me for the knowledge He has given me I use it as a compass to guide me along the right path. The doctrines that I teach are spiritually discerned which requires knowledge of the purpose. I'm not amazed when one disagrees or denounces what I have been revealed. It my hope that everyone could come to the knowledge of how wonderful the Lord is.
Paul
Hi,
Thank you.
If everyone stood alone with the truth then there would be no such thing as truth, or fellowship or even a body of Christ.
” But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's OWN interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men, moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God”We all “see in the mirror dimly”
1Cor 14 29
“And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others PASS JUDGEMENT”We must live in submission to the Body and not just our own spirit surely?
The belief that one cannot stand alone with Christ is unbiblical.
Private interpretation is constantly being distributed in those churches that claim to be “christian”.
We must be in submission to the Body of Christ which is where Christ dwells.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Paul
Quote (trettep @ April 07 2005,23:08) The belief that one cannot stand alone with Christ is unbiblical. Private interpretation is constantly being distributed in those churches that claim to be “christian”.
We must be in submission to the Body of Christ which is where Christ dwells.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Paul
Hi Paul,
The belief that the eye does not need the hand or the toe need the knee is also unbiblical. We all need one another in the body of Christ so that we can be sure that the “light” in us is not “darkness, for how deep that darkness will be”.But then if you think you are superior, the only enlightened person on earth you will cast away whatever we say. Surely then no one can reach you or love you can they, even if they are in the body of Christ?
I make the assumption that I'm not the only one. The hand does need the foot and likewise all parts need each other for the missions of the Church.
I have been enlightened but I do listen and when I find Truth – I embrace it. I have no pride. I can be proven wrong if I am wrong concerning what I teach. I am to conform to the Truth no matter how painful that is for the flesh.
I delight in the others that are contrary to me that look with affliction for the Truth in the hope that I aid their calling and that the Lord will find favor of my works.
This is what I do now. For those all here, I labor. It's a labor of love in the hopes that others will be enlightened by the Truth.
I'm still a babe and have much to learn but what I learn I give unto others as it was given to me. I admonish others to seek the Truth with zeal. That Truth is the Word of God. Pray and ask for that guidance. Turn away from the writings and personal interpretations of men. Turn even from my own and prove all things like the Bereans. Its my desire and not just mine for everyone that is attracted to the goodness of God.
Paul
Hi,
Rudy has suggested in another forum that we should not allegorise what is not plainly said to be allegory. Do we all agree that allegory is always stated as such? Should Daniel and Revelation be taken as literally as the rest of scripture? Personally I would say that the Spirit indicates to me that these books are quite different and contain many hidden allegories. I see risks in studying the stars for asteroids and looking for frogs or fire to come out of mouths. I guess sometimes what is physically impossible should be recognised as allegory too but when stars can mean angels we are into an entirely different ballgame surely?I believe the lampstand (candlesticks) are a good example of how it should be approached. The Bible interprets these things itself. There really isn't a need to interpret most of these things otherwise as it appears God already has for us. The problem is that it takes thorough knowledge of both coventants to understand many things. For example the lampstand in the temple in the old coventant might be referred to differently than in the new covenant depending on translation of the Bible or the word as used in Hebrew vs Greek vs Aramic etc…
Duality must be observed and sought out in every situation. God made it clear that we are given examples from the Old Covenant that would be a shadow of those things that are in the New Covenant. Additionally, those things that are in the former are usually physical and those in the latter or the new covenant are spiritual.
Another thing is that must be understood is that God does everything perfectly. There is only one way that God must do everything and that way is perfection. God is not the author of confusion therefore anything that confuses or contradicts must be sorted out and fit into the must uncontradictory manner.
God doesn't change. Because God does everything perfect God has no need to change. Many will try to say for example that the entire Law was done away with but God doesn't change and God has stated that the Law is Holy and good so we can see that the Law must be included in some portion of the overall plan.
The Gospel – this must be understood because this is really the MISSION or the primary intention or purpose. Everything else supports the Mission or purpose. If something doesn't support or adhere to the Gospel it must be disregarded.
The Godhead – if the Godhead is not understood then the Gospel can't be because the Gospel involves the Godhead directly.
Pray – The Bible makes it clear that praying accomplishes much. Use it to ask for understanding.
Practice – the practice of the things learned will lead one to the Goal of the Mission and eternal salvation and aid understanding.
There and many more things are what have aided me in understanding.
We can learn everything we need to learn – I have become confident of that as I have stated before.
Be zealous for all these things.
Paul
Hi Rudy,
Does the water really become blood in Rev 8.8 or does it become like blood?v13 just after the signs in the sun and moon;
” “…Woe ,woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound”Surely the woes do not belong to us? Does that mean we have been raptured? If there is a trumpet every year of the seven years of the tribulation [feast of trumpets] does this suggest the rapture is before the 4th trumpet and thus mid trib? Or do we not truly 'Dwell” on earth?
One thing at a time, The frog issue is identified from scripture as unclean spirits, not physical frogs
Revelation 16:13 – And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
I have no reason to doubt, the scriptures plainly say “like as” or “like unto”, why try to change it?
The other says it became, this one gets questionable and would require more study, though on the surface it appears to be blood due to the context of the following verse.
I believe the He that letteth is Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.
People will still repent during the tribulation so the Spirit of God must still be present and without a moral voice in the world lawlessness will abound like Soddom & Gomorrah and the days of Noah!
John 6:44 – No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Sorry if I seem short, I'm still at work finishing out the day and don't have a lot of time
Hi Rudy,
We also have fire coming out of the mouths of the witnesses and a sword coming out of the mouth of the Word of God.I agree there are frequent literal parts of Revelation too-signs in the heavens, changes in the sun and moon etc. It is all truth. So was the truth that Jesus spoke in parable form and some are prophetic i believe-the prodigal son. the talents, the wedding feast etc.
That is why we need not be tied to either all literal or all symbolic but we have to rightly divide the word of God according to other revelation and the Spirit. Do you agree?
I don't disagree in the least. The trouble with allegorizing is if not allowing scripture to interpret scripture you end up with the same issue as making Christ the Almighty, then it opens the door to interpretation rather than God saying what He means and meaning what He says.
For example, we all use figures of speech and that can be problematic depending on our culture:
Luke 24:32 – And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Does this mean their hearts were on fire? Of course not!
Is it or is it not possible for fire to come out of their mouths? Are not all things possible with God?
I believe that by their word they will rebuke their attacker/s in the name of the Lord and they will literally burn on the spot, so it might actually appear as though the flames came from their mouth.
Hi Rudy,
Yes all things are possible with God. We do not know any limits to God's ability, but that does not prove that Revelation is literal. God has done amazing supernatural things at times but He usually does things according to the nature He designed.I think we can take the clue that the seas become like blood to decide that the reference to the rivers becoming blood means the same thing. Blood is an amazing mixture of fluids and active cells and antibodies that is specific to species and has several variations even in humanity that are not mutually compatible. If it is really blood then which type?
I do not believe the two witnesses are individuals myself. It is my opinion that they represent the final evangelisation of the World done through christians. And when it says that fire comes out of their mouth to consume their opponents I see a different understanding from the obvious bizarre event that will have little general impact. I suggest it means that those who do not respond to this final plea, which may be detailed in Rev 14.6f, condemn themselves to the future fiery death predicted for the earth and those who are not saved.
What do you think?
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