Revelation

[NickHassan]

Hi Is,

Some thoughts:

The rider is “given” a crown symbolising authority but he already had the bow.
The Horse is white and we know nothing of the rider's clothes.
Horses symbolise strength and power beyond the natural man's resources.
White symbolises purity or righteousness.
The Bow symbolises attack, war or aggression.
The Arrow allows influence from afar.
The Horse allows travel far and wide.

Since we know this person does not represent true righteousness then it seems likely to me that it represents the international success and popularity of a false gospel encouraged by the false church and accompanied by false signs and wonders.

What do you think?

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 01 2005,08:19)

Where did Jesus referred specifically to the 2nd Temple of his day? I don't recall Jesus referring specifically to Solomons temple in this context. Cubes, I hope by comparing Matt 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 I have shown you that the seven yr period described in Dan 9 has not yet occurred. If you dispute this, then please show me proof of the AOD, mass fleeing by Israel and the terrible tribulation events. When the tribulation, does occur there will be an order to cease oblations. But to have sacrifices you must have a temple. Therefore, since there is currently no temple in Jerusalem, it is logical to deduce that sometime between now and the middle of the 'week' one must be built. This will be the third temple.

Hello Is. 1:18:

Thanks for your response. It is consistent with what I've heard prophetic scholars on TV say, and having no opinion of my own, I pretty much had no reason to dispute it. I still don't dispute it but I question it now given my recent look at Matthew 24 as I shared earlier.

Now to answer your question: Jesus was referring to the 2nd Temple built by Zerubabbel and his fellow returnees from captivity. It was not the Temple that Solomon built. Matt 24:1-3 recently caught my attention in a way it hadn't before, which led to my questions and reassessment of the viewpoint you present:

Mat 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
Mat 24:2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

I hope that is a satisfactory answer to your question.

[Cubes]

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Just noticed a difference b/n these two verses and that of Matt 24:1-2. In these verses that speak of Yeshua's body, either he is destroying or the religious are destroying the temple (his body. Makes me think of the verse that says of his life, [no man takes it from me, I lay it down myself. This command I received from my Father]…or something like that). Jesus in this case said that he would raise or build another temple (his body) not made of human hands.

These things are said only of his body, and not of the 2nd Temple. If a 3rd temple is to be built, it would have to be by Yeshua himself and one that is not built by human hands–But he is already risen and is also building his Church/body–if we correlate the two viewpoints. So what else is left concerning that, biblically speaking?

Viewpoint #1 makes the assumption that there has to be a third temple since it doesn't accept that the AOD occurred in 130/70 AD or whatever date that was. And think the tribulation that the jews went through in the 30s and 40s. Surely, that wasn't some common day occurrence.

Now Is. 1:18 can you show us proof of a third temple in scripture? Believe me, I don't know where this is leading but I am finding out as we go along.

All the best.

Edited parameters of green font color and grammar for clarity–Cubes

[NickHassan]

Here is a question that just occurred to me cubes,

Jesus referred to his body as the temple.
We too are together a temple then.[Eph 2.20f]

Could this temple BE the third temple?

I don't know how the AOD could fit but I'll throw it in anyway?

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2005,03:04)

Here is a question that just occurred to me cubes, Jesus referred to his body as the temple. We too are together a temple then.[Eph 2.20f] Could this temple BE the third temple? I don't know how the AOD could fit but I'll throw it in anyway?

Hi Nick,

That very thought was occurring to me as I posted the 2nd message.  Here is what I am getting so far:

We seem to have jumbled Matt 24:1-2, Matt 14:58 and John 2:19 together, thinking they referred to the same thing:  The Passion.  Thus we overlooked the relevance of the clue to  the Temple Mount as relates to End Time Prophecy.

I now see that Yeshua spoke of two different temples and yet, they could be two sides of the same coin, and therefore the same coin in a way in the same way he is head of the Body:

a)  Solomon's temple was built by human hands and was destroyed.  

b)  The 2nd temple was built by human hands and was destroyed.  

c)  I would not have considered Yeshua's body to have been built by human hands but it is he who said it, so I shall have to think he referred to his humanity.

d)  Yeshua rose again, raised by God.  I am seeing now that there IS a THIRD Temple of God and we are that Temple being partakers together with the saints in the light.  Our Temple is not like the first or second and is not being built by human hands.  It is holy indeed.  

1Pe 2:4   And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
1Pe 2:5   you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6   For {this} is contained in Scripture: “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER {stone,} AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
1Pe 2:7   This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER {stone,}”
1Pe 2:8   and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this {doom} they were also appointed.  

Also, Revelation 21 is coming to mind:

Rev 21:22f And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. .

So then, AOD, if it didn't occur in Israel during the Roman days, could be occuring in the Church instead!  And yet, how?  No defilement should be able to enter into the holy city of God or his temple.

Speaking of the oblation ceasing, what is the Oblation or sacrifice of the church?  Worship of the True God?  Praise?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oblation

This is where the scriptures have led.

Please share your thoughts and/or rebuttals.  Thank you.

[NickHassan]

Hmm cubes,
The scripture in Mk 14 and again in Mk 15 is hearsay. It is the reported words of those who were manipulating those words against him.

If the body of Christ is the third temple then mass apostasy must occur. Such a thing is mentioned in 2Thess 2.

[NickHassan]

By the way cubes,try this on for size.

The rebuilding of the temple in three days in Jn 2.19: Could it fit with the 1day =1000yrs. 2000yrs ad + 1000 yr millenium =3000 =3 days
and
The “death of the two witnesses” could it be the great apostasy?

[Is 1:18]

Hi Cubes,
Im in the middle of writing you a post but in the meantime I wanted to ask you 3 questions:

1. Do you accept that the tribulation will be seven years in duration (years in the literal sense)?

2. Do you accept that the AOD will occur in the middle of this period?

3. Do you accept that the tribulation will culminate in the earthly return of Jesus Christ?

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2005,04:31)

Hmm cubes, The scripture in Mk 14 and again in Mk 15 is hearsay. It is the reported words of those who were manipulating those words against him. If the body of Christ is the third temple then mass apostasy must occur. Such a thing is mentioned in 2Thess 2.

Hi Nick,

I didn't read the chapters of Mark 14 & 15 in its entirety so I shall do that and see if it nullifies what I've said so far, that if there is a third temple (and there is), then it is one built by Yeshua and not by man.

Another thought occurred to me from John 4:21-24

21: Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22: Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spiirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24: God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If a third physical temple is to be expected, Jesus should not have said that. And yet what he said is very consistent with the scriptures that teach that we are lively stones being built up into a spiritual house [temple], with Yeshua being our chief cornerstone. We too offer up sacrifices of a spiritual kind, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Additionally, Hebrews teaches about Christ as our holy sacrifice, once and for all. How then shall God revert back to accepting sacrifices of a lesser quality and if so, then doesn't that make the cross of Christ in vain?

So I don't know about the rest–I am taking it one step at a time–but I am now certain that the third temple is not physical in nature but is presented in Revelations 21 in its finality, and we are the lively stones thereof, together with Christ in our union with the Father.

Is the AOD in Daniel the same as the son of perdition in 2 Thess 2? We can study the scriptures from both perspectives and see where they lead. Something is expected to happen in the church, if it hasn't happened already. The Trinity Doctrine is one major one that has already happened to attempt to change the image of God into that made by man.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2005,04:49)

By the way cubes,try this on for size. The rebuilding of the temple in three days in Jn 2.19: Could it fit with the 1day =1000yrs. 2000yrs ad + 1000 yr millenium =3000 =3 days and The “death of the two witnesses” could it be the great apostasy?

Worth looking into. My ponderings are a little slow in nature.

3 Days = 3000 years would support viewpoint one (Is 1:18). But I now doubt it because of the points made in my previous posts, particularly with regards to holy sacrifices and worship in truth and spirit.

There is no longer Jew or gentile spiritually, so it stands to reason that we should not have two forms of sacrifices and worship.

All sacrifices/oblations are now spiritual in nature…for the Jew and the gentile (whether or not the “Jew” realizes or accepts this). We are also worship God outside of Jerusalem and the physical address of the temple. The Ethiopian Eunuch and many in that day had to go to Jerusalem but we haven't had to.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 02 2005,08:02)

Hi Cubes, Im in the middle of writing you a post but in the meantime I wanted to ask you 3 questions: 1. Do you accept that the tribulation will be seven years in duration (years in the literal sense)? 2. Do you accept that the AOD will occur in the middle of this period? 3. Do you accept that the tribulation will culminate in the earthly return of Jesus Christ?

Hi Is 1:18,

I shall have to say at this time that I've scrambled all that I thought I knew about the subject and am now reconstructing it from the two viewpoints presented so far. So, I don't know. I'll update as I find out.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
One thing about hidden prophecy is that we may only fully understand it in retrospect.We must remain open to spiritual understandings and we would be foolish to cling to only a literalist viewpoint.

It has always bemused me that life seems to carry on as relatively normal such that most will not be expecting the return of Jesus. That must mean that things slip past unnoticed by the sleeping bridesmaids.They lose their lamp oil and that is obviously essential.

Despite what is said about the sacrifices and oblations there is no doubt that the only new temple is shown in Eph 2, 1 Peter and Rev 21.That temple has been being built since the time of Jesus but is only as shown completed at the end of the “3 Days”in Rev 21.

I say we need to keep searching as there is truth to be found here.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ April 02 2005,20:15)

Is the AOD in Daniel the same as the son of perdition in 2 Thess 2?  We can study the scriptures from both perspectives and see where they lead.  Something is expected to happen in the church, if it hasn't happened already.

Hi Cubes,
I think you are right about 2 Thess 2:

Quote

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

To me, this is certainly a reference to the AOD by Paul. The Antichrist (actually he has about 56 other titles; 33 in the Old Testament and 13 in the New Testament) sitting in the temple declaring himself to be God. Paul explains to the Thessalonians that the day of Christ is not yet at hand because there must be a “falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”. This reinforces the scope of the tribulation 'week' written in Daniel 9. So the antichrist must appear and he will dessicrate the temple by declaring himself to be God. To do this there must be a literal temple.

[NickHassan]

Not necessarily Is,
If Christians fall into apostasy and worship the “beast” as God when he is revealed [in their own temple] would that not be similar?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is,
It is an understandable assumption to derive from scripture that a third temple must be built. But the fact is scripture does not say a third temple will be built by human hands does it. We need to stay with what is revealed to be sure we are in line with truth surely?

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2005,21:10)

Hi cubes, One thing about hidden prophecy is that we may only fully understand it in retrospect.We must remain open to spriritual understandings and we would be foolish to cling to only a literalist viewpoint. It has always bemused me that life seems to carry on as relatively normal such that most will not be expecting the return of Jesus. That must mean that things slip past unnoticed by the sleeping bridesmaids.They lose their lamp oil and that is obviously essential. Despite what is said about the sacrifices and oblations there is no doubt that the only new temple is shown in Eph 2, 1 Peter and Rev 21.That temple has been being built since the time of Jesus but is only as shown completed at the end of the “3 Days”in Rev 21. I say we need to keep searching as there is truth to be found here.

Hi Nick, I agree that we must remain open and keep seeking God on it. One thing that ministered to me today was Daniel's attitude of prayer in Daniel 9 concerning these very things. He sought the Lord with fasting and prayer. I think a little of that wouldn't hurt our cause either. Jesus did indicate that we shall need to fast in his absence. Perhaps we could agree on a time to do similarly as a group. Though we could do it individually as well at anytime.

Here is the Ephesians 2 scripture on the topic:

Ephesians 2:19-22
19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but felow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21: In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 02 2005,21:16)

Cubes,April wrote: Hi Cubes, I think you are right about 2 Thess 2: Quote 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. To me, this is certainly a reference to the AOD by Paul. The Antichrist (actually he has about 56 other titles; 33 in the Old Testament and 13 in the New Testament) sitting in the temple declaring himself to be God. Paul explains to the Thessalonians that the day of Christ is not yet at hand because there must be a “falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”. This reinforces the scope of the tribulation 'week' written in Daniel 9. So the antichrist must appear and he will dessicrate the temple by declaring himself to be God. To do this there must be a literal temple.

Is. 1:18:

So then this antichrist should be connected in someway to christianity or Judaism — Or not necessarily?

***I don't think a third temple is necessarily required, Isaiah.
The causing of “oblations to cease,” with regards to the spiritual 3rd temple, would have nothing to do with animal sacrifice. But we could be persecuted as other christians have been from the times of Christ.

Shall we look again at Daniel 9:24-27, a verse at a time and share our thoughts?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The time period here appears to encompass the time of Daniel through to the end of days when everlasting righteousness is restored. And what does it mean to “anoint the most holy?”

Could it refer to the Holy Spirit's sealing of the saints/servants of God who are also the temple of God?

Any thoughts?

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2005,21:27)

Not necessarily Is, If Christians fall into apostasy and worship the “beast” as God when he is revealed [in their own temple] would that not be similar?

Now your on the right track.

Paul

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2005,21:27)

Not necessarily Is, If Christians fall into apostasy and worship the “beast” as God when he is revealed [in their own temple] would that not be similar?

Hi NH,
Lets look at this from a Jewish perspective.

Quote

Matt 24 15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand– 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

Notice the urgency that Jesus confers to his listeners (and the subsequent readers of the Gospel). When they see this event described by Daniel (and subsequently elaborated on by Paul in 2 Thess 2) they are to get out of Israel quickly. He underscores this by telling them not even to worry about their clothes! How much clearer can He be. BTW, Zech 13:8 specifies that two thirds of Israel will ignore this warning and perish. That's double the body count of the holocaust! or approximately 12 million (the population of Israel today is about the same as it was in the 1940s).

If the temple was somehow spiritualised – where are the Jews to look?, and what for specifically? an antichrist type figure emerging in the church? That's a little subjective don't you think (and dangerous given the gravity of the situation and the speed at which the carnage will follow)? How many people have falsely been labeled the antichrist? George Bush is the latest 'short odds favourite' going by the internet prophecy sources.

To me this is clearly a extreme abomination that will occur in a future-built temple. I don't see the point in applying an allegory to the temple, when the literal interpretation fits.

[NickHassan]

Good points Is.

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