Revelation

[NickHassan]

Hi Is.1,18,
If the church is not seen to be mentioned in Revelation it is because we are not reading between the lines, in my opinion. It is impossible for the church not be an important part of endtimes [unless you are a pretrib man].

I believe it is in Rev 11, as in the other forum.

“This gospel of the kingdom has to be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come” Matt 24 14.

Who else but the church will do the preaching?
What is your view there?

[trettep]

You must remember in the New Testament God wants us to worship in the Spirit and practice His Laws in the Spirit on fleshy tables of the heart. Those that do ARE the testimony. Because its through Faith in Jesus Christ that they do so. That is why there were two tables of stone in the Old Covenant called the Testimony and that is why there is TWO Witnesses from the New Covenant.

Paul

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 30 2005,08:22)

Hi Cubes, No in the sense that the tribulation events (4-19)are yet unfulfilled. The precurser to the tribulation starting is a contract (decree) is signed btwn Israel and the antichrist: Daniel 9 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. I believe the last 4 verses of Daniel 9 is the key to understanding end time prophecy. In Revelation 1:19 John is told by Jesus to: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter” This gives the outline for the book. – The 'things that thou hast seen' refers to the vision of the risen Lord just experienced previously in Chapter 1 – The 'things which are' refers to the seven churches which were existing at that time in Chapters 2 and 3. These chapters describe us, in the church age. – And 'the things which shall be hereafter' (meta tauta) refers to the remainder of the book (Ch's 4-22), and describes the events before, during and after tribulation. Interestingly, the church isn't mentioned at all (on earth) when the tribulation is being described by John.

Thanks for sharing,  Is 1:18.  

Consider this as dialogue/contribution rather than a rebuttal or any authoritative revelation on my part.

The reason I wonder whether Messiah has started opening the seals is that #1-6 could have been fulfilled already, with the exception of the sky receding and mountains moving out of their places and stars dropping from the sky.  

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The sixth seal as viewed from earth fits best with a polar shift which would make the stars appear to fall or be scrolled up. It fits with Is 24 too. The description of the sun as “black as sackcloth” and the moon “like blood” attracted me to the thought that these may be the witnesses as they are dressed in sackcloth, but the rest did not fit so it got dropped.

Polar shift may also cause the changes in the sun and moon rising and going down at different times and the days becoming shorter. That certainly has not yet happened!

[Cubes]

Yes, Nick. I edited my post with regards to Seal #6. I don't think those cosmic changes have occurred yet and they would be observable. I was thinking of the Servants of God being sealed when I said #6 would not necessarily be observable.

Don't have any insight to add about the two witnesses yet.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The “Trumpets ” may relate to the “feast of trumpets” celebrated by the Jews annually.They expect the Messiah to come on that feast, one whose date cannot be exactly known.[Ref The Watchman site of Greg Killian]

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
I appreciate those who seek insight-the inward teaching of the Spirit-rather than just regurgitating the teachings of other men. That is what we are meant to do if we are following the Spirit.

[Cubes]

Thanks, Nick.

Now how shall we reconcile Romans 14 to the Observance of Biblical Feasts if one is not required to observe the Sabbath, etc?

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
We were never under Law. We are now under conscience guided by the Spirit?

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 30 2005,12:41)

You must remember in the New Testament God wants us to worship in the Spirit and practice His Laws in the Spirit on fleshy tables of the heart.  Those that do ARE the testimony.  Because its through Faith in Jesus Christ that they do so.  That is why there were two tables of stone in the Old Covenant called the Testimony and that is why there is TWO Witnesses from the New Covenant. Paul

Hi Paul,
Interesting. I guess I always thought the two tablets of stone showed some of the Commandments on each, perhaps those that relate to God and those that relate to our fellow man. Were they identical with each witnessing to the other?

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2005,22:14)

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 30 2005,12:41) You must remember in the New Testament God wants us to worship in the Spirit and practice His Laws in the Spirit on fleshy tables of the heart.  Those that do ARE the testimony.  Because its through Faith in Jesus Christ that they do so.  That is why there were two tables of stone in the Old Covenant called the Testimony and that is why there is TWO Witnesses from the New Covenant. Paul Hi Paul, Interesting. I guess I always thought the two tablets of stone showed some of the Commandments on each, perhaps those that relate to God and those that relate to our fellow man. Were they identical with each witnessing to the other?

We don't know if there were two complete sets of 10 commandments or 1 complete set across two.  But the important part is the number two.  It takes two to be a witness.

Joh 8:17  It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

I wrote about this in my 7 Churches of Revelation document.  

http://webpages.charter.net/ptretter/seven.html

There is another evil doctrine that lumps all works in the same catagory.  However, their really is two types of works.

Works of the Letter of the Law  and the Works of the Spirit of the Law.

The latter requires Faith and the indwelling of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Ask any questions about the Holy Spirit – make sure you understand what the Holy Spirit is.  It can help you to understand.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
Good stuff. I guess in a jewish court of Law two witnesses attest to facts concerning a third party, the person accused. But Jesus certainly said two witnesses are sufficient in John 8.17 and that included himself, the person whose veracity was in question by the Jews. Or perhaps both the Father and Jesus witnessed to the Word he spoke or works done-must check.

Now if witnesses attest to each other then the two witnesses of Rev 11 must relate to testimony rather than true prophecy, as never has God used two prophets together -Elisha was with Elijah but only as a student\teacher relationship?

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2005,23:07)

Hi Paul, Good stuff. I guess in a jewish court of Law two witnesses attest to facts concerning a third party, the person accused. But Jesus certainly said two witnesses are sufficient in John 8.17 and that included himself, the person whose veracity was in question by the Jews. Or perhaps both the Father and Jesus witnessed to the Word he spoke or works done-must check. Now if witnesses attest to each other then the two witnesses of Rev 11 must relate to testimony rather than true prophecy, as never has God used two prophets together -Elisha was with Elijah but only as a student\teacher relationship?

The Testimony is that they are a testimony of Jesus Christ and of the Father in Heaven. Therefore if they don't do the Will of the Father in Heaven which sent Jesus Christ then they are not a testament.

For one to understand much more they need to understand the Gospel message. Here is that message:

The Gospel is the Good Message that a person can be born into the Family of God which is a Kingdom. This is the message that Jesus spoke of after he qualified to rule that Kingdom by overcoming the Devil. Its through that message that we can receive the Holy Spirit which identified us as the Children of God. Therefore, one cannot be born again unless they have the Spirit of God.

If one truely believes that message and desires it then I want to fellowship with that person because that person will be my brother or sister and not just that but they will be the Children of God.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ Mar. 30 2005,23:22)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2005,23:07) Hi Paul, Good stuff. I guess in a jewish court of Law two witnesses attest to facts concerning a third party, the person accused. But Jesus certainly said two witnesses are sufficient in John 8.17 and that included himself, the person whose veracity was in question by the Jews. Or perhaps both the Father and Jesus witnessed to the Word he spoke or works done-must check. Now if witnesses attest to each other then the two witnesses of Rev 11 must relate to testimony rather than true prophecy, as never has God used two prophets together -Elisha was with Elijah but only as a student\teacher relationship? The Testimony is that they are a testimony of Jesus Christ and of the Father in Heaven.  Therefore if they don't do the Will of the Father in Heaven which sent Jesus Christ then they are not a testament. For one to understand much more they need to understand the Gospel message.  Here is that message: The Gospel is the Good Message that a person can be born into the Family of God which is a Kingdom.  This is the message that Jesus spoke of after he qualified to rule that Kingdom by overcoming the Devil.  Its through that message that we can receive the Holy Spirit which identified us as the Children of God.  Therefore, one cannot be born again unless they have the Spirit of God.   If one truely believes that message and desires it then I want to fellowship with that person because that person will be my brother or sister and not just that but they will be the Children of God. Paul

Hi Paul,
No one is born of God simply by wishing to be so. God requires a sign.
Scripture does not say Jesus “qualified” to rule after defeating the devil does it?

[trettep]

Can you show me where it says that God requires a sign?

Paul

[NickHassan]

Yes Paul,
In the appropriate forum.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Cubes, I hope you are well.

Quote

As mentioned in another thread, I suspect that Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled with portions of Matthew 24 .

Daniel 9:27
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The “he” in view here is the antichrist. He has not yet appeared, let alone signed a covenent with Israel, therefore by that count alone Daniel 9:27 cannot have been fulfilled. Also consider Matthew 24:15-21:

Quote

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)   16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:   17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:   18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.   19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!   20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:   21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The abomination of desolation (AOD) occurs in the middle of the week (a phrase used to describe the seven year period). Therefore if the decree has occurred then it must have happaned less than 3 1/2 years ago. I don't recall one.

The AOD has not occurred yet. Notice also that Jesus urges the Israelites to split quickly when they see the AOD. This urgency infers that the tribulation events follow quickly and these events are unprecidented in scale and horror (v 21). I don't believe that Jews have left Judea in a great hurry previously in history, and certainly not after an AOD type incident.

In 168 BC Antiochus Epiphanes, a Syrian King that came to power about 175 BC, actually entered the Jewish temple and desecrated the sanctuary by offering unclean animals upon the alter of burnt-offerings, and (if that wasn't bad enough!) erected the statue of a greek (false) deity in the Holy of Holies. This I believe led to the maccebean revolt. However, this was only a type, or foreshadowing, of the AOD alluded to by Jesus. It led to an uprising of the Jews not them fleeing (you can confirm this for yourself with a quick google search of his name).

Quote

Many hope and have an expectation that a 3rd Jewish temple is to be built in order to usher in Daniel 9:27.  But is it? The holy scriptures don't support that viewpoint.  Jesus referred specifically to the 2nd Temple of his day.  Haggai prophesied about the 2nd Temple.   The Romans were reported to have defiled the 2nd Temple about which Jesus spoke.  We also know that the same temple was destroyed, that there was great Jewish persecution and tribulation.  That is consistent with Daniel 9:27 and aspects of Matt 24. To our knowledge, the decree has not gone forth or did it? I admit that modern Israeli history suggests that it is yet to be.  But as with the expectation of a third temple about which God has said nothing, could our projections be wrong with regards to dates?

Where did Jesus referred specifically to the 2nd Temple of his day? I don't recall Jesus referring specifically to Solomons temple in this context.

Cubes, I hope by comparing Matt 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 I have shown you that the seven yr period described in Dan 9 has not yet occurred. If you dispute this, then please show me proof of the AOD, mass fleeing by Israel and the terrible tribulation events. When the tribulation, does occur there will be an order to cease oblations. But to have sacrifices you must have a temple. Therefore, since there is currently no temple in Jerusalem, it is logical to deduce that sometime between now and the middle of the 'week' one must be built. This will be the third temple.

Quote

I suspect that everything overlaps and is not necessarily chronological in nature so that only those that are prayerful and vigilant may notice.

I believe that scripture shows that the Tribulation will be a contiguous seven year period. And that in the middle of it there will be an event that ussers in a period of unprecidented disaster for those unfortunate to still be on earth (this period will also be 3 1/2 years (refer Dan 12:11)). People may miss the significance of the signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:5-8 but not the tribulation events – they will be terrifying.

Cheers  

[NickHassan]

Good post thank you Is 1.18,
I think the point cubes is making is that the AOD is not mentioned in early Revelation. So the first five seals may still have occurred and the AOD may occur between then and the signs in the sun and moon etc. I think it is a valid view.What do you think ?

[Is 1:18]

H NH,
Cubes made several points and I answered some of them. Have the scrolled events of Rev 6 been occurring throughout our history, possibly but I have my doubts. The very first one alludes to the antichrist (v2):

Quote

Revelation 6 1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Since the scrolls are opened in sequence in heaven it is reasonable to assume that the events will unfold in sequence (i.e. 1-7) on earth, starting from the emergence of this world leader. We will know his identity when this decree is signed with Israel. Since he has not yet appeared I don't think that the scroll events could have been occurring.

What do you think?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is,
Why do you think the rider of the white horse is the antichrist? I have heard views that it is representing false religion or false gospels.

We need to search the meanings of
White
Horse
Crown
Bow

He “went out conquering and to conquer” showing 'he' is successful and that success continues. But what is his mission?

Remember there are three more horses and they all represent major events involving thousands of people so this is unlikely to represent one man on a personal mission.

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