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Hi t8,
I think some chapters of Revelation are enlargements of things shown earlier. These parts are not necessarily in time sequence but add detail to what was shown in sequence.eg Rev 17 and 18 are enlargements of Ch 14.8
Some are celestial signs . Some primarily show particular aspects or events in heaven or the same events on earth presented in different symbolism.eg 12.4-12.
Just before the scriptures you showed in ch 8 we see in 7.9 those who have come out of the great tribulation. Could that be evidence that it is all over for those who are saved through faithful suffering before the final woes of the earth?Yes could be as we may go through Tribulation, persecution etc. But the bowls seem to be for wrath.
We could be taken after the persecution but before the wrath. As this seems to fit with what God has done in the past. But of course we still do not know the day nor hour, only the time or season.
One thing is for sure though, the gospel will have been preached to all nations. This seems to be something concrete that we can measure the end by. Although I cannot remember if it says if the end is immediately after the preaching of the gospel to all.
Ok then t8,
Matt 24.29 says that the changes in the sun,moon and stars occurs 'immediately after the tribulation of those days[but not the Great tribulation?]' Then the sign of Son of Man appears followed by Jesus himself. His elect are gathered by the angels[rapture]Now we meet him' in the air' which I would have thought was before he landed on earth.Those in Rev 7.14 appear to have suffered greatly;hunger, thirst, sunburn and stifling heat. Are these the same as Rev 15.2?
Rev 16v 1f ,preceded by a celestial sign in 15.1, specifies the bowls of the wrath of God and we will not have to endure those plagues.Just before that in 15 2 are mentioned those who have been saved through being victorious over the testing by the beast and his image[see above].
Rev 11.15 suggests that the return of Jesus as king is beginning-matching 19.11f
2 steps forward and one and a half back with this book for me even if I work on it! help
ps1Thess 1.9
” For they themselves report about us what kind of reception we had with you and how you turned from idols to serve a living and true God and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, WHO RESCUES US FROM THE WRATH TO COME”Hi :
Could it be that in the process of creation that could be the same in the distruction of creation except the spiritual relm? Creation started in a void and all other creations came afterward; seeds, life, light, stars, planets ect. ?………Could it be ?
hi happyman.
There will be more than the presence of God. Rev 21 says there will be a new heaven and a new earth. There will be those whose names are written in the book of life. There will be light and trees and streams.Rev 21.3″…behold the tabernacle of God is among men and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people and God Himself shall be among them”
God will dwell with His purified creation.
First, Nick, Enoch and Elijah (and Moses, too), like all others, are still waiting for the resurrection. I know that scripture SEEMS to say that they were taken up without seeing death, but it doesn't and they weren't. There are a lot of great sites that explain this quite well (do a google search on Enoch and Elijah). If you read the faith chapter of Hebrews (Chapter 11) very carefully you will see that they ALL died (see verse 13 and see that Enoch is included in the “all”…also verse 39). Verse 40 confirms that EVERYONE (including us and those still yet to come) will receive the promise (of resurrection or eternal life) TOGETHER at the same time (after the last trump).
Here's a verse I would like to add:
Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,
burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.I included verses 10 and 11 because I believe they are the cause of the woe of verse 12. I am confidant that the star called Wormwood is a comet or asteroid that will hit the earth and change its rotational speed. We know that there are 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of darkness in a day. If both day and night are shortened by a third, this means that there will be 8 hours of day and 8 hours of night, or 16 hour days. This means that the rotational speed will be increased and, therefore, the comet will come in at an angle from the west.
This is what I expect to happen. I could be wrong.
Good stuff bic,
Certainly Is 24 and others demonstrates massive earth changes in relationship to other bodies and the days are shortened, clouds cover a rainless earth [3and half years]and crops and grapevines fail. Kings hide in caves. It is hard to imagine how normal functioning can continue on earth at all let alone the mischief of the beast and his sidekick.Heb 11.5
” By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up, for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God”
v13″ All these died in faith, without receiving the promises ..”Now you say verse 13 contradicts and denies verse 5?
Unlikely because in v5 there are two witnesses to the truth and scripture says two witnesses are sufficient to establish a fact[2Cor 13.1]The answer lies in the end of the v 13. Enoch was taken before Abraham, as in Heb 11, and it was Abraham that received the promise spoken of in that verse. The promise was given to Abraham and his descendants and does not apply to those born before the promise was given and the verse refers to those who died “without receiving the promises”
Matthew 17:3-4
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”Hi ,
I find it interesting that only those who accept the mark suffer the loathsome skin disease? skin Cancer.
Those who are saved through the tribulation seem to suffer the effects on the excess heat of the Sun[talk about global warming] but not the skin disease. How does God do this? A genetic change or angelic protection? I don't know.t8: You're taking that bit of verse out of context and you are extrapolating meaning that just isn't there. A vision is not an actual being, no more than a video image is the actual item it portrays. For example, if I see a documentary about Elvis and he is saying that he is still in the building, I know that, in reality, he is not: Elvis HAS left the building! Let's read a bit more from where you posted:
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and
behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him…
…17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.Now, instead of trying to see how this proves that Elijah and Moses have been taken up , read that passage carefully again and see what the message (to the apostles) really was. What do Moses and Elijah represent? The Law and the Prophets! Why, after listening to Jesus, did they (Moses and Elijah, the Law and the Prophets) mysteriously just disappear?
God was showing the disciples that Jesus (His Son) was the FULFILLMENT of the Law and the Prophets.
Before, they wanted to erect three tabernacles.
Afterwards, not even ONE. The times they were a'changing.
Nick: Using your own reasoning, do you think that verse 5 contradicts and denies Hebrews 9:27 and John 3:13 and 1 John 4:12?
Further proof: Scripture shows (2Chron.21:12) that Elijah was STILL alive (in a different place) some 20 years later (AFTER he was taken up in a whirlwind). God's purpose was to remove Elijah so that Elisha could take over but He didn't want to kill Elijah (Elijah had many years of life left in him).
It's obvious you didn't do that google search on Enoch and Elijah. Do you need a link or should I post some of these great explanations for you?
Bic,
I am sorry but am a bit thick and do not understand the question so clarification would help. Thanks.Jn 3.13
” No one has ascended into heaven,
but he who descended from heaven;the Son of Man”Heb 9 .27
” For inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement”1Jn 4. 12
“No one has seen God at any time :..”Compare with v 5 of Mt 17.5
” While he was still speaking , a bright cloud overshadowed them , and behold a voice out of the cloud said' This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased;listen to him”Now if you mean that the Father was on earth because His voice was heard I remain unconvinced that His complete presence was necessary.
If you are suggesting that Yeshua had already ascended the text is confusing . But it is true no one has ascended [Elijah and Enoch were taken there]. It is also true that the Son of Man has been there with the Father, and he has descended to earth to partake in our manhood.
You have lost me as to the relevance of Hebrews9.27.
I was saying to compare Hebrews 11:5 with those listed verses and not Matthew. Sorry for the confusion.
Hi bic and t8
Lk 9.28f
” About 8 days later[mt and mk say 6]after saying this he took Peter, John and James, and went up onto a mountain to pray. While he was praying ,his face changed in appearance and his clothes became dazzlingly white. Suddenly two men were talking with him-Moses and Elijah.They appeared in glory and spoke of his passage, which he was about to fulfill in Jerusalem. Peter and those with him had fallen into a deep sleep;but awakening, they saw his glory and likewise saw the man who were standing with him”Who told them who the two men were? I presume Jesus introduced them?
Hi bic,
Are the following just coincidences?
1) That Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ.
2) That Elijah didn't see death.
3) That Michael and the Devil disputed over the body of Moses.It fits quite well that both these men are in glory and actually appeared to the disciples in their glorious resurrected bodies next to Christ who was transfigured at that moment. After all both Moses and Elijah get special treatment regarding their bodies. The only other person that I know who gets some kind of special treatment is Enoch.
Did not the disciples want to erect 3 tabernacles and we know that Christ wasn't a visual representitive of himself. It was Christ himself who was transfigured.
I think that if we say the whole thing is a vision and not real but representational, then that is reading too much into it. I read these verses as they are and that is the understanding I deduce. Of course I can be wrong, but I need proof in order to change my view which I get from reading these scriptures literally and logically.
Yes t8,
The dispute over Moses body in Jude is interesting. Why the body and not the soul? The only implications I can see is firstly that Moses body must have been rescued from natural degradation in the same way as Enoch and Elijah though he was unique in that his body had died first. The other implication is that Satan has a role in that natural physical degradation on earth.Hi cubes and Is 1.18,
The signs in the sun and moon are.before the return of Jesus. Matt 24 say”immediately after the tribulation of those days”. They seem to follow the overthrow of Jerusalem in Lk 21. Before then armies have to surround Jerusalem, and the abomination of desolation before that and we are not there yet.But do the first five seals of Rev 6 relate to events already past I do not know? I personally would be surprised if the great world wars, the great depression and the Spanish flu did not feature here.
Hi Cubes,
you wrote:Quote Has the revelation of the endtimes been unfolding all along through the ages so that we are nearer the end of it, rather than waiting for it to begin. By this, I mean the signs that are supposed to happen, including the Tribulations. I shall be interested in your scriptural viewpoint. The answers is yes and no. Yes in the sense that events described in chapters 1-3 of the book have occurred and are occurring. No in the sense that the tribulation events (4-19)are yet unfulfilled. The precurser to the tribulation starting is a contract (decree) is signed btwn Israel and the antichrist:
Daniel 9
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.I believe the last 4 verses of Daniel 9 is the key to understanding end time prophecy.
In Revelation 1:19 John is told by Jesus to:
“Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter”This gives the outline for the book.
– The 'things that thou hast seen' refers to the vision of the risen Lord just experienced previously in Chapter 1
– The 'things which are' refers to the seven churches which were existing at that time in Chapters 2 and 3. These chapters describe us, in the church age.
– And 'the things which shall be hereafter' (meta tauta) refers to the remainder of the book (Ch's 4-22), and describes the events before, during and after tribulation.Interestingly, the church isn't mentioned at all (on earth) when the tribulation is being described by John.
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