Revelation 1:8

[Proclaimer]

Togel, the LORD manifests himself through his people. He appears to us when he sends a messenger or the son. The eternal invisible God doesn’t literally walk around and shake people’s hand and drink a glass of water with them. No, he lives inside people that do things like that. In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD. Did you know that Jesus is the image of the invisible God? That means if you want to see God and know what he is like, then look to Jesus his son. He is the closest resemblance of God. Some important differences though, he is not the eternal spirit but a visible being who has a body. He is not the original God, he is the image of that God. He is our prime person when wanting to know about God.

Many Trinitarians mix the Old Testament which had a lesser revelation regarding God with the New Testament where we are taught the mystery of God which is Jesus Christ his son and how we can be in him. You can’t have an invisible God whom no one has seen and that be the same supposed God who is very visible on Earth as in Heaven. What you are suppose to learn is that the revelation gets greater. For example, did Job know that Satan was behind his suffering? He referred to the LORD (who we know allowed this, but didn’t inflict it). Even others had limited revelation and said:

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

Surely with the revelation found in the New Testament, we know that God is the Most High and he has a son which was a mystery and his adversary the Devil is often used to judge or test people. But if we revert to the Old Testament and ignore the greater revelation, then we just see the LORD who does all these things and yet he did it all which is true, but we know better what is going on.

When people saw the God that cannot be seen, they saw the Angel of the LORD which is perhaps the preincarnate Jesus. They saw an angel of the LORD which could be Michael, Gabriel, or other heavenly messenger. If you see a being that looks like and sound like the LORD, then you are seeing a messenger. And yet you are in a sense seeing the LORD, but through an agent. This is how it was in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament. We can see God because seeing is perceiving. As it is written about some, they have eyes but do not see.

If you want to believe anything about the son, then believe this true message:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

[Proclaimer]

In short, the eternal invisible spirit who is God is seen through creation, angels, and primarily through his son.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

See how we can actually see the invisible God through creation all the while know that God is not creation itself, but is of him. Likewise God is a spirit and angels are spirits, but they are of him. And again, the son too is of him. This is why he is called the Son OF God.

We live in an age of great revelation and God expects us to comprehend it. He doesn’t reveal things so that we can remain ignorant, but to enlighten us.

[Proclaimer]

You seem to take the position of 2

I would say 3, and the explanation is in the two posts above this one.

[Togel]

T8,

You said:

In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD.

==========

Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

Isaiah 6:1

1  In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord (YHWH) sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”

So, Isaiah clearly did not see an angel of the Lord. I agree that there is a special Angel of the Lord, which is very likely Christ before His incarnation, but these verses are not talking about this Angel of the Lord but the Lord Himself, sitting on the throne with the seraphim.

You are trying to reduce these verses into somewhat “erroneous” because it is a lesser revelation than the New Testament. I disagree, I prefer taking these verses as they are.

However, I see that you understand that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah clearly see Jesus before His incarnation, because the Father is invisible, and the only God, i.e. the Son of God declared the Father.

Isaiah clearly saw Jesus on the throne of God. He knew this Lord to be YHWH, the Elohim of Israel. So, I too believe that Jesus was the Elohim of Israel, YHWH.

What about the Father? The Father is also YHWH, but since He is invisible, nobody has seen Him, and can never see Him.

If Moses, Abraham, and Isaiah believe that the Lord they saw was YHWH or the Elohim of Israel, which now we know to be God, how could God not correct them if they were wrong?

Please also look at “Holy, Holy, Holy”… why 3 times? Not 2 times? Not 4 times? 2 times in the entire Bible we see the angels saying “Holy, Holy, Holy” (3 times) to our God. Once is in the New Testament (Rev 4:8).

Also, let’s see it from the perspective of the NT, I guess you already are aware of this as well:

Jesus said 3 times that whoever sees Him (Jesus), saw the Father, the One who sent Him:

John 14:7,9

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Joh 12:45 “And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

So, let’s see it from the perspective of the Father. Do you think the Father agrees with Jesus’ words above? I believe He does. So, the Father could very well have said “If you want to see Me, see Jesus, my Son. If you see Him, you see Me”.

Or, we can put it this way: The Father could have said “If you want to see God (Me), look at Jesus”.

This way, we can see that Jesus is God. Otherwise, the Father could not have said that, and Jesus could not have said the above.

Believing that Jesus is less than God is a blasphemy, because we will be considering the visible image of the invisible God to be not God, whereas the Son Himself says that if you want to see the Father (who is undoubtedly God), look at me, a statement with which, I believe, the Father agrees.

Imagine this: The Father says “You want to see Me (God), look at Jesus (less than God)”. Then the Father is lying, but He does not lie. So, Jesus must be God. Not the Father, but God.

 

[Frank O’Donnell]

John 1:18 (NAS) No one has seen God at any time; the only BEGOTTEN god* who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (Caps mine for emphasis)

* There was no such thing as “capital letters” when the Bible was written.

 

Spirit creatures, angels, are able to behold the brilliance of Jehovah (Mt 18:10; Lu 1:19), an experience that no human eyes could endure, for Jehovah/Yahweh himself told Moses: “No man may see me and yet live.”

[Proclaimer]

Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

Let’s test your words Togel using scripture. First I want to point out what you really said by implication.

Sorry John and Paul, I think your statements do not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

Clearly you do not agree with John and Paul, and remember that I do not believe that no man can see God because of personal understanding, but because our brothers Paul and John wrote this clearly in scripture and they even gave us explanation as to who people saw when men said they saw God. Further, both John and Paul read the same books in the Old Testament that we do, so let’s again revisit their understanding of this. We also know that those who were with Jesus or around his time had a greater revelation than those in Old Testament times, so their view of what happened should be greater or contain more revelation. So let’s again mention what you actually disagree with and by extension of that, which writers you disagree with:

You disagree with John who said:

• No one has ever seen God;
• No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him;
• And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

You also disagree with Paul as he clearly states that the ONLY God is invisible and scripture says that Jesus is a visible being.

• Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen;
• The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So if these two biblical writers state clearly that God is invisible and Jesus the son of God is visible, then by whom did men see when they saw YHWH? Clearly they saw the or a visible image of the invisible God. They saw the glory of God. Like the wind which you cannot see, God is invisible, but you see the wind by looking at its effect and we can see God by seeing his glory in that which is begotten of him and that which is created by him. If mere creation demonstrates to us what God is like and we are without excuse, then his angels all the more so. But the greatest revelation of God is his son Jesus Christ. If you want to see God, then look into the face of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

How does anyone see an invisible God who is actually an eternal Spirit? Well let’s take the best known case which is Moses. I say Moses because he is considered the greatest prophet for his time and before that and he also saw the LORD face to face. So he is the best example to start with. Let’s see how he was able to see the invisible eternal God. In Deuteronomy 34:10 says:
Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

However, when you read exactly how Moses saw this invisible God you see that he first encountered an actual angel who was the representation and messenger of the invisible God.

Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

The writer of Acts 7:30 even agrees when he says:
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

Later we read in Exodus 33:21-23 that Moses was not actually allowed to see YHWH’s face.
And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back… 

So the greatest of all prophets to date, was not allowed to see his face or form, instead while his GLORY passed by he was able to catch a glimpse of something as God’s presence passed by. This is what it means to see God and the greatest prophet to date had this encounter which is described as him communing with him face to face. Now return to the writers of the New Testament who declare that no one can see God. Guess what, they are correct. Seeing God is not as you think, an encounter with a finite being who you can see and talk to like a human or an angel. No, it is an encounter with an eternal invisible spirit who is light and where his presence is his glory resides. We can’t see him directly or his form, but we can see his glory and that glory can emanate from his son, or another messenger that he may send.

Can Moses say he saw God? Yes he did see him, but not all sight is direct as you think. There is hindsight, foresight, and other ways to perceive things. Often I may say that I can see your point, but does that mean I actually saw a point in the sky, or that I perceive and understood to some degree what you are said. It is the latter. When people see God it is not that they see a finite being in a body and can see his mouth moving as he speaks, but that they see the glory of the eternal God of whom the Universe cannot contain.

Remember, if you disagree that no one can see God, then you disagree with at least two writers of the New Testament, and guess what? You also disagree with Moses too as his account in Exodus 33:20 says: But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

Do you still believe that some men can literally see God like you see a man or a tree? Then you disagree with some verses in the Bible. While I agree with them all, you clearly do not Togel. What are you going to do about these discrepancies in your theology?

[Togel]

T8,

I do not disagree with the Scripture or their writers, but I disagree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of their writings.

When John writes that no one has seen God, John meant to say that none has seen the Father. Jesus explains this Himself:

John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

So, I clearly believes more in Jesus’ interpretation of John’s writing that no one has ever seen God, than your interpretation.

But there is ONE GOD that people has seen, in the past and even in Jesus, time, that is the Son, the only God who declared the Father.

Whom do you think was talking to Moses, and whose back do you think Moses see? The Father’s?

And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back…

Of course not the Father’s back. He is invisible. Even Moses could not see Him. If the Father’s back is visible, then He is not invisible. So, this is clearly God the Son whom Moses saw. He is the Elohim of Israel, whether or not you acknowledge.

That’s why the writer of Hebrew writes that it was the Son who created the heaven and earth, because God the Son is the God of Israel. He is the God that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw.

In His full Glory, nobody could see His Face and live. I guess He had to sort of “reduce” His glory in order that people could see Him and live. In other words, God could allow some people to see Him and live. However, this God is not the invisible Father, because no matter what the Father will never be seen. However, God the Son could make Himself visible, and even becomes incarnate.

This same God, the Son, also calls Himself, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, to Isaiah and to John. The Almighty also uses these names, but for you, these two names have different meanings when used by the Almighty and by Jesus. How come? Clearly you read your interpretation ONTO the Scripture instead of letting the Scripture speaks for itself.

Clearly, you are placing your logic above the Scripture.

And once again, remember that Jesus says Himself: You see me, you see the Father (meaning: You see me, you see God, because the Father is God). And you dare to reinterpret that into something else. I am sorry Brother, I guess you disagree with Jesus in order to maintain your theology based on your wrong interpretation of Paul’s and John’s writing.

Now, when you quote this, and wants to use “the only God” to refer only to the Father, you need to see the other translations as well:

(ESV) 1Ti 1:17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

(NKJV) 1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

(AV) 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So, clearly “the only God” can mean “God who alone is”.

It’s like the Shema Yisrael,  where “echad” means not the absolute oneness of God, but that there is only one true God, i.e. YHWH, the Elohim of Israel.

 

[Proclaimer]

When John writes that no one has seen God, John meant to say that none has seen the Father. Jesus explains this Himself:

Well yes, the Father is God. That is what I have been saying all a long.

And he is the only God.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.

No man has seen God, but they have seen the son of God.

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

Yet you believe that God is a Trinity, so if no man can see God, then no man can see the Trinity. You yourself admitted it is the Father. You have made progress.

 

 

[Togel]

T8,

You are totally missing the point!

Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphim and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus explained that it is not “God” in the meaning that you are assuming, but simply “the Father”. Otherwise, John’s statement would totally contradict the established and accepted Scripture, the Old Testament, which is as important as the New Testament. Jesus knew that the God of Israel had been seen by Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah, because it was He, Jesus, the Son Himself, who visited Abraham, and it was also Him whom Moses, and Israeli elders, and Isaiah saw! And I know that you don’t deny this, because the Father is invisible, and so only the Son can declare Him, and the Son had declared the Father to these people.

And these people knew very well that YHWH that they saw was the Elohim (God, theos, if you like) of Israel, and they were not wrong, otherwise they would have been corrected, and this proves that Jesus, the Son, is also an El (God), part of the Elohim (God in plural form) of Israel.

That’s why, Jesus said in John 8:24  “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Who do you think Jesus is claiming to be in the verse above? “I am He” or simply “I Am”, the name of God in the Old Testament, because that’s who He is! That is the title or name that YHWH assumes many times in the OT. And read it carefully because Jesus said that if you do not believe that Jesus is “I Am”, you will die in your sins. That’s Jesus saying, not me, so don’t you say that I am putting words in Jesus’ mouth. I am not. It is written as it is.

Now, if you quote 1 Corinthian 8:5-6 to prove that the person of God is only one, i.e. the Father, I am afraid you are wrong:

5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Read verse 5,  and you see that Paul is differentiating the one God, the Father, not from the Son, but from the other gods, and lords the many other nations. The false gods. Paul is not denying Trinity here, but simply enforces the true identity of the true God. In fact, Paul is confirming the very imporant role of the Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all are all things. If Jesus is created, this is simply impossible.

And if you believe that the latter revelation is greater, you should be very careful, because you are very close to becoming the follower of Joseph Smith (or are you already?) or Muhammad, both of who believe that their latter revelation is GREATER and more correct than the earlier revelation: the OT and the NT. This assumption simply does not work, and is simply your creation in order to justify your theology.

The plurality of the persons of God is already revealed many times in the Old Testament. They are there if you just would read.

[Proclaimer]

Togel, you know it takes much more effort to refute a statement than make one. For this reason, I may not answer every single point you make. But if there is a point I miss and you prefer me to cover that, please let me know.

[Proclaimer]

Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form,

God is not a man, but angels/messengers can come in that form or likeness. 

Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

2 Chronicles 36:15-16
The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; 16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.…

Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus explained that it is not “God” in the meaning that you are assuming, but simply “the Father”.

Yes, God is the Father.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

because it was He, Jesus, the Son Himself, who visited Abraham, and it was also Him whom Moses, and Israeli elders, and Isaiah saw! And I know that you don’t deny this, because the Father is invisible, and so only the Son can declare Him, and the Son had declared the Father to these people.

I don’t deny this, I think this is likely the case. The invisible God has many visible images including us, but there is one image (the first) who is the fullness of the deity. One who is the exact REPRESENTATION of his being. God sends messengers. If he turned up by himself, you wouldn’t see him. You could hear his voice though. such as when God said: And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

So when God appears to people, it is often through angels, sometimes the Angel of the YHWH, other times the son of the living God. Now it is quite possible that before Jesus came in the flesh, he was this Angel of YHWH that appeared to our prophets and fathers. One thing to note here is that the Angel of YHWH is not mentioned while Jesus lived in the world.

Jesus is the image of God. He is the representation of him. Thus he cannot be the God that he represents and cannot be the God that he is the image of. He is not the source but an offspring thus why he is the son. The Father is the source, thus why he is the Father. It really is so simple that a child could grasp it. But adults like to think they are intelligent and came up with the dodgy Trinity Doctrine that no one can fathom.

[Proclaimer]

That’s why, Jesus said in John 8:24  “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Who do you think Jesus is claiming to be in the verse above? “I am He” or simply “I Am”, the name of God in the Old Testament, because that’s who He is! That is the title or name that YHWH assumes many times in the OT. And read it carefully because Jesus said that if you do not believe that Jesus is “I Am”, you will die in your sins. That’s Jesus saying, not me, so don’t you say that I am putting words in Jesus’ mouth. I am not. It is written as it is.

In in John 18:5-6. Jesus answered a simple question: “Are you Jesus of Nazareth”. He answered: “I am”.  He was not claiming to be God, He simply answered the question correctly as you would if asked the same question but with your name being mentioned. Of course people will not fall backward when you say it because you are not the son of God are you. You don’t have to be God for people to fall backward or position yourself as prostrate of the floor. This happens to angels too.

Now in in John 18:5-6 Jesus is simply saying that you will die in your sins if you do not believe in him and who he is. Saying that this means we will die in our sins if we do not believe that he is God is adding to the text and we shouldn’t do that. Remember when Jesus asked Peter who he was, he declared that he was the messiah and son of the living God. No mention of Jesus being God in his confession and Jesus was so impressed by his confession that he said: “Upon this rock I will build my Church”. I wonder if Peter will die in his sins because he failed to acknowledge in scripture that Jesus was God. Sorry Peter, but technically speaking you said a lot of truth, but you never taught that Jesus was God. You will die in your sins. Yeah right as they say.

Togel, all you arguments are just you spouting Trinitarian propaganda. It is very easy for me to expose these arguments you make.

For more on this subject, you might like to read this writing which goes into this subject at greater depth.

John 18:5-6

 

[Togel]

T8,

It’s been very long… been very busy with projects, and evangelizing the Moslems… you know what? Debating with them does not feel too much different from debating with you! They like to use Bible verses that you use, to prove that Jesus is not God. LOL!

I don’t remember quite much the plot of our discussion, but what I remember is that you twist the meaning of many verses into your own doctrine of unitarianism. The Bible clearly writes that Thomas said to Jesus My Lord and My God, but you tried to give a different meaning to that.

We also read that the Scripture clearly says that YHWH visited Abraham in human form, and you said that that is not God, practically saying that YHWH is not God, or that the Scripture (OT) is wrong, or a lesser revelation than the NT.

You have not addressed the Isaiah verse where Isaiah saw the LORD sitting on His Throne. You cannot say that this is another “agent”. I think you will twist this again into somewhat Isaiah saw only a vision not reality or that Isaiah is a lesser revelation. Something like that.

You should also read John 14:23

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

If Jesus is only “the image” of the Father in the sense that He is nobody, not a God personality, then he could not have said that and be truthful. Jesus said that He (Jesus) and the Father would come and live with anyone who loves Jesus. If Jesus is not God, this is simply impossible. Because there are billions of believers who loves Jesus, and there will be billions of Jesus… without Jesus being omnipotent and omnipresent, just like the Father, this will be impossible.

Also Paul said that in Jesus dwells the full deity. He did not say “half deity” or “part deity” or “sub-deity”… what does that mean? He clearly says that the Spirit that lives in the human body of Jesus was fully God. And Paul knows that this God is not the Father. So Paul was saying that Jesus, God the Son, is fully deity, and dwells in that human body called Jesus.

But I guess you will take all efforts possible to twist these verses or “impose” your doctrine into these verses so that these verses do not read like they should any more. You will then be unable to read the Scripture as it is written. So, I guess I will leave you at that. I am afraid that you will finally got totally lost in your understanding of the Scripture because you cannot read it as it is any more, but instead twist everything to fit your theology.

 

[Proclaimer]

It’s been very long… been very busy with projects, and evangelizing the Moslems… you know what? Debating with them does not feel too much different from debating with you! They like to use Bible verses that you use, to prove that Jesus is not God. LOL!

And herein lies a tragedy. We alienate both Muslim and Jew with the Trinity Doctrine when it is not necessary and wrong.

We need to convince both that Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. We need to show them that God made him Lord. While Muslims might give lip service to Jesus being the messiah, they do not believe that he died for our sins and rose from the dead some days later.

Further, if you are trying to preach the Trinity to these people, then you do so in vain. That is a shame IMO.

[Proclaimer]

We also read that the Scripture clearly says that YHWH visited Abraham in human form, and you said that that is not God, practically saying that YHWH is not God, or that the Scripture (OT) is wrong, or a lesser revelation than the NT.

You do not understand. YHWH sends messengers. It is YHWH, but through his messenger. God is invisible and an eternal spirit. How do you think you are going to talk to a being like that? Shake his hand, converse in English, fight with him? Of course if you do any of that, it is the or a messenger of YHWH.

Jesus is the image of the invisible God. This is the truth. He is not the invisible God. but his exact image. The woman is not the man, but is the image of him. Yes they have the same nature, but an image is not the source. Likewise, Jesus is the image of God and has his nature, but he is not that source and not that God. In the most simplistic of terms, God is a ‘he’, not ‘they’.

I had the privilege of encouraging a muslim to become Christian. He was searching and the things Christians said to him prior were terrible. I accepted him and he agreed that Jesus was the son of God and the messiah in the true sense. He agreed that Mohammed was a false prophet. I did not in any way need to teach him of the third century doctrine of the Trinity. That would have been teaching him tradition and dead religion.

[Proclaimer]

Also Paul said that in Jesus dwells the full deity. He did not say “half deity” or “part deity” or “sub-deity”… what does that mean? He clearly says that the Spirit that lives in the human body of Jesus was fully God. And Paul knows that this God is not the Father. So Paul was saying that Jesus, God the Son, is fully deity, and dwells in that human body called Jesus.

Divine nature is not proof you are God just as Spirit is not proof that you are God. While God is a Spirit and has divine nature, so it is that angels are spirits and we can participate in divine nature. You would agree that angels and men are not God right? But you need to accept that the son of God is not God, but of him. He is not of himself. is he? No, he is of the Father who is God making Jesus the son of God. This is what the very definition of Father and son is right?. God is the Father and the only God and Jesus is his son. If you do not believe it, you reject Jesus and Paul’s own words.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

If you preach or teach the Trinity, then ask yourself why your teaching isn’t the same as what Jesus and the apostles taught. The answer is you are the victim of tradition and you teach and preach in vain if this is your gospel.

If I am the only man here to stand like an Oak tree and defend this, then so be it.

[AndrewAD]

I remember as a young believer being at a revival service where the preacher was preaching Num23:19 God is not a man that he should lie,neither the son of man that he should repent, with his emphasis on God’s faithfulness to his word,that we should trust God’s word.He was really harping on this and repeating this verse over and over. I didn’t know the bible well at all but the thought occurred to me that if God is not a man,nor a son of man because men are fallible and he’s not then how is he faithful to his word by becoming a man? Apparently I wasn’t the only one to start thinking this because a woman who spoke after him said yes God is not a man but he became one to redeem us …etc. And the following night we got a sermon about Moses and the I AM revelation with the connotation of it meaning I am what I am and I will be what I will be and by then I was just believing what they said for it’s a sin to question God’s Word. But if God is not a man who doesn’t lie or change his mind then why does he lie by changing his mind to become a man? is that what he had to do to save us? But the great I AM wasn’t lying because he implied also that I will be what I will be. It’s in many ways like has anyone seen God? Moses knew God face to face,yet no man can see my face and live said God to Moses,but got to see his back parts.? So he goes from being a good face to face friend with God,to getting the consolation prize of seeing his back parts? Is this really a God who doesn’t change his mind?

Also not long after that at age 17,I read a book called “Jesus in Exodus” written by a former Jew who had converted to Christianity in which he explained how it was really Jesus on Mt Sinai who had given the law and of course all the types and shadows of Christ etc. It made sense but it didn’t.

If Jesus was the Logos ever by God’s side through eternity,then was he the one who gave the Mosaic law?” for the law came by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”,Jesus in St John says to the Jews “is it not written in your law”. Should he not say my law or at least our law? The way St John and Paul contrast the law and Jesus I have a hard time believing they would fully agree with the Jesus in Exodus theories as to Jesus being Jehovah,angel of Jehovah,shadow of Jehovah or whoever it was that appeared and spoke there.

Gal 4:4,5   but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

This verse makes me think of Jesus being held in reserve until the time appointed by God to call the whole world to himself which is much different than the law or lawgiver.

 

 

[Proclaimer]

God is not a man but he became one to redeem us …etc.

But scripture says that God sent his son into the world. He sent his son to save us so we could become sons.

He didn’t become one of us so we could become God.

[Proclaimer]

Also not long after that at age 17,I read a book called “Jesus in Exodus” written by a former Jew who had converted to Christianity in which he explained how it was really Jesus on Mt Sinai who had given the law and of course all the types and shadows of Christ etc. It made sense but it didn’t.

Personally I think there is a good chance that Jesus was the Angel of the LORD.

One reason is that angel means messenger and Jesus is clearly called messenger. Secondly, the messenger of YHWH is not mentioned when Jesus is on Earth. Finally, if he is that messenger, then Jesus is not YHWH. Rather he is his main messenger.

And as you pointed out. God is invisible. But I say that we can see his messengers.

Let’s be real about it. How can a man see and eternal invisible Spirit. We cannot. We can see his glory and we can see his messengers. God is way beyond us, but relates to us in ways we can comprehend.

[Proclaimer]

If Jesus was the Logos ever by God’s side through eternity,then was he the one who gave the Mosaic law?” for the law came by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”,Jesus in St John says to the Jews “is it not written in your law”. Should he not say my law or at least our law? The way St John and Paul contrast the law and Jesus I have a hard time believing they would fully agree with the Jesus in Exodus theories as to Jesus being Jehovah,angel of Jehovah,shadow of Jehovah or whoever it was that appeared and spoke there.

Why not. The old and new covenants are complimentary.  The old leads us to the new. God has a plan right? Jesus is at God’s right hand side right? God wants to save man right? Jesus asked the cup be removed from him despite this plan right? But Jesus was faithful to God and always did his will, even when it got tough. Thank God for Jesus.

[Author]

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