Revelation 1:8

[Togel]

T8,

So, from those Revelation verses that I quoted, you should already be able to see that The Father says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, The Beginning and the End, and then in latter verses Jesus also uses this title for Himself.

So, how can you apply diffrent meanings to those names when used by the Father and when used by Jesus? Is that what you call double-standard, and it simply does not work, because then you are losing the point of reference?

Here’s what you said:

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Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

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Revelation 1:10-13

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

So, here, in verse 11, clearly the voice that says “I am the Alpha and the Omega…..” comes from One like the Son of Man, who is clearly Jesus, not the Father, because the Father is not like the Son of Man (where in the Scripture does it say that the Father is like the Son of Man?)

So, in verse 8 you said that the Father is talking, and He is referring to Himself as the A&O and here Jesus is talking and referring to Himself as the A&O. So clearly, the Father and Jesus are distinct but both area A&O meaning, both are God, two persons, one God.

 

[Proclaimer]

Did you not read my post? Replacing *ALL* God with the Father also does NOT work!

The instances where it doesn’t work is where the Most High is not being referred to. This is the point. My point is not that ‘theos’ always refers to the Father, but that “theos” in context of the Most High is always the Father.

For example:

Jesus said: “ye are gods”.

He most certainly wasn’t referring to the Most High here.

“The god of this world” is also not referring to the Most High is it?

Both these examples use the same word, ‘theos’.

Please show me one verse that is talking about the one true God/Most High and identifies another person other than the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

[Proclaimer]

So, from those Revelation verses that I quoted, you should already be able to see that The Father says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, The Beginning and the End, and then in latter verses Jesus also uses this title for Himself.

Please pay attention so we don’t have to repeat ourselves. I will do it though for the sake of convenience.

It is a Jewish idiom and is framed within the context like anything else is. God is by default the first and last. Jesus is the first and last in many things that God is not. For example, Jesus is the firstborn which is the context of the verse. We are told that he has first place in all things by Paul, and that he is also the final Adam. He is the author and finisher of our faith too.

looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 

Notice how Jesus is the first and last as far as our faith goes, and then notice that he sat down at the right-hand of God who is another.

So, how can you apply diffrent meanings to those names when used by the Father and when used by Jesus? Is that what you call double-standard, and it simply does not work, because then you are losing the point of reference?

Easy. It is quite common. Here is an example that comes to mind straight away.

God

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Jesus

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

So Jesus is the light right? So that makes him God because God is light right?

Wrong!

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Can you now see how you can you apply different meanings to those names when used by one and then another?

I could go on. God is spirit. Angels are spirit. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, we are made in the image of God. God has divine nature and we can share in divine nature.

The simple truth here is that attributes of God can describe others who are like God and we are called to be like God right?

[Proclaimer]

So, here, in verse 11, clearly the voice that says “I am the Alpha and the Omega…..” comes from One like the Son of Man, who is clearly Jesus, not the Father, because the Father is not like the Son of Man (where in the Scripture does it say that the Father is like the Son of Man?)

I have already said that the first part is referring to the LORD God and further on it is referring to Jesus Christ. That doesn’t equate Jesus as God just as being the light of the world does not make us God or Jesus, even though God and Jesus claim to be light.

You will find that many attributes and characteristics, even some sayings or idioms that describe God are also present in Jesus and ALSO all who follow God. Simple explanation is that we should be like God and have his character and nature. Trinitarians like to confuse people here by taking only instances of God and Jesus and conveniently not mentioning the children of God as having the same attributes.

For example, a favorite argument made for the Trinity is that Jesus said that he and the Father were one. Well guess what? You hardly ever hear them also mention in the same breath that Jesus prayed that we should also be one and one with him and one with God. If being one with God makes you God, then I guess you cannot be one with God or that would be blasphemy.

Of course we can be one with him and still not be God at the same time. Likewise Jesus. He is the son of this God we are talking about and we are the sons of God. Well I do not speak for you as that is up to you, but for those that are of God is what I am talking about.

[Togel]

T8,

You are asking for verses where God refers Not to the Father but the Most High? I have already shoved you the verses many times: Genesis 18, Exodus 24, Isaiah 6.  (I know these are not “theos” but essentially the same, just different language).

Need more?

John 1:1 also does not work: and the Word was God.

Also the Hebrew verse, Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Clearly these verses are talking about the Son and He is referred to as Theos!

We know that Jesus came into the world not to show Himself as God, but as the Lamb, the Messiah, that’s why He did not show the entire truth about Himself, and we find only few verses about His true identity… but from the many verses in the Scripture we learn that Jesus claims equality with the Father many times, and that should be enough. Except for heretics of course…. who follow their own mind instead of the entire Scripture.

Example:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Jesus says that He will send the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father in your terminology:

Joh 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

If Jesus is inferior to the Father, how can He have authority to make His Father’s Spirit His own messenger?

[Togel]

T8,

Your explanation may contain some truth, but in these Revelation verses, you are clearly putting words into Jesus mouth!!

Lord God says I am the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus says I am the Alpha and the Omega.

But you give different meanings to that exactly the same name! Why? Because you have your own theology binding you! Anyone who reads it with a sincere mind and open and honest mind would have to admit that Jesus is claiming to be God, because HE IS SAYING THAT BEFORE THE FATHER!! If Jesus is not God, then The Father would not have allowed Jesus to use that name! Just think about the situation and don’t try to impose definitions from afar off into this context.

Yes, Jesus is the first and the last in many things, but here Jesus is not talking about any roles at all; He is SIMPLY STATING HIS NAME! Not just attributes.

[Togel]

T8,

The evidence for Trinitarians are ample; that Jesus is claiming equality with God is also evident in the Bible. You are just trying to ignore them and explain away those statements. Jesus says that He and the Father are one is not the only evidence. Jesus will come as the Judge at the end time, while we know from the Old Testament that God is the Judge over the entire world.

He also claimed omnipresence:

Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Isaiah 35:3 is a promise that the God of Israel will come to save His people:

3 Strengthen the weak hands, And make firm the feeble knees.
4 Say to those who are fearful-hearted, “Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, With the recompense of God; He will come and save you.”
5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer, And the tongue of the dumb sing. For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground shall become a pool, And the thirsty land springs of water; In the habitation of jackals, where each lay, There shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

And when the disciple of John the Baptist came to Jesus to confirm who He is, Jesus uses the above prophecy:

Matthew 11:2-6

2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples
3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”
4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see:
5 “The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 “And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”

So, Jesus is basically saying that He is the God of Israel who was coming to save His people as promised to Isaiah.

Very straightforward if you would just open your heart.

And there are many others.

[Proclaimer]

You are asking for verses where God refers Not to the Father but the Most High? I have already shoved you the verses many times: Genesis 18, Exodus 24, Isaiah 6.  (I know these are not “theos” but essentially the same, just different language).

You are kidding me. Are you saying that the three men are the Trinity?

[Proclaimer]

John 1:1 also does not work: and the Word was God.

This takes to long to explain to a Trinitarian, so I will just point you to a page that I wrote on this very subject. I know it is long, but it kind of needs to be because of the questions that get asked. Hopefully it answers any questions that spring to mind. Regardless, it is up to you to test it and see for yourself.

John 1:1

[Proclaimer]

Also the Hebrew verse, Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Don’t you mean Heb 1:8?

[Proclaimer]

Clearly these verses are talking about the Son and He is referred to as Theos!

Yes there are verses that talk about Jesus with the word ‘theos’ or equivalent, just as it is also used to refer to  angels, judges of Israel, and Moses.

Further, even idols and Satan are called ‘theos’.

Again, the question was in relation to the Most High God as referring to any other than the Father. Of course you and I can quote a myriad of verses with ‘theos’ that refer to another besides the Most High.

[Proclaimer]

We know that Jesus came into the world not to show Himself as God, but as the Lamb, the Messiah, that’s why He did not show the entire truth about Himself, and we find only few verses about His true identity… but from the many verses in the Scripture we learn that Jesus claims equality with the Father many times, and that should be enough. Except for heretics of course…. who follow their own mind instead of the entire Scripture.

Do not be confused with being like God with being as great as God or being God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Obviously he is like God to such a degree that he is the visible image of the invisible God.

We are images too, but as you know, an image is not the source and we reflect only in part.

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

This is how Jesus said it. I think Jesus ends this argument. Unless you want to argue with him. But you are free to do that if you want.

The Father is greater than the Son. Full stop.

Further, if you were even equal to something, it simply means that you are also not that thing.

If 5+3=8, then know that 5 and 3 are not 8 themselves. If a football team is equal to another, then by reason of that, it is not the same team, but two different teams.

Women and men may be equal, but females are not males. Equal or equality is a word that is not used to make two things the same thing, rather similar. I have already said that Jesus is the most like God. We cannot see God, but we can see or perceive God by looking into the face of Christ.

[Proclaimer]

So, Jesus is basically saying that He is the God of Israel who was coming to save His people as promised to Isaiah.

I will let Paul teach you.

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

God saved us by sending his son. This is part of the gospel. And when you dig deeper into scripture, Jesus even asked God if this cup could be removed if it were possible, but not his will but God’s will. This shows that it was God’s will to save us. It was God’s plan. Jesus did God’s will and not his own.

What are you trying to do with our Jesus? Devoid him of his unique identity? Why create him as one part of the three part God made into an image crafted from a theological mind?

[Togel]

T8,

You said: You are kidding me. Are you saying that the three men are the Trinity?

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You better read the verses yourself:

Genesis 18:

1  Then the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

verse 22: Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.

verse 33: 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
Genesis 19: 1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

So, the 2 are angels, who went to Sodom after meeting with Abraham, while the LORD (YHWH) stayed with Abraham, and after finished talking, He went to Sodom as well, but was not told again in the Scripture.

Can you figure out who this YHWH is?

Did I ever say that He is the Trinity?

Remember Jesus said no one has seen the Father.

 

 

 

[Togel]

T8,

No, I meant Hebrew 1:9 Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Try replacing both Gods with Father, and you get a failure.

Verse 10 also EXPLICITLY states that the Father says to the Son that the Son laid the foundation of the earth, and that the heavens are the work of the Son’s hands.

This is not me saying, but the Scripture:

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

You cannot twist these verses into your doctrine, I am afraid…..

[Togel]

T8,

you said:

The Father is greater than the Son. Full stop.

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Why full stop? Why in other verses you can twist the meaning in any way you like but here full stop? This is clearly biased.

REad this:

Joh 14:12  “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

The same word Jesus used, that we will do GREATER works than what Jesus did. Can we? So, what does greater here mean?

Remember, Jesus is in the form of a human being, His abilities are limited. That’s His duties:

Philiphian 2:5-7

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

So, at Jesus’ state at the time that He spoke those words, Jesus has made Himself nothing.

You also said this:

==========

I will let Paul teach you.

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

==============

You read well: Paul was talking about a crucified man, A MAN! We don’t worship man, but Jesus before He was incarnate was not a man. But that man Jesus, whom was crucified, was made both Lord and Messiah by God, which include the Son. The Son was not originally flesh, but was made flesh, and this flesh was what they crucified. But the Spiritual Son, who created the world according to Hebrew 1:10, was already God. When Jesus was made Lord, then since then the Son will have that physical body, the glorified physical body, which He did not have before His incarnation.

[Togel]

T8,

And talking about LIGHT, I read these verses:

Revelation 21:22-23

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Lord God Almithty and the Lamb are its temple….

God illuminated, but the light is the Lamb…..

Seems like God and the Lamb have the same roles here….. temple and light

Now… do you think WE, humans, the disciples of the Jesus are still the light? Hehehe….. you must be kidding… of course not. Only God and the Lamb are the light, so your point in saying that just as Jesus is the light, so are we, is CLEARLY rebutted. Only God and the Lamb are the light, no humans, not me, not you can become the light in that sense.

[Togel]

T8,

You said:

If 5+3=8, then know that 5 and 3 are not 8 themselves. If a football team is equal to another, then by reason of that, it is not the same team, but two different teams.

===============

Trinitarians are not just saying that Jesus is the Father. Modalists do say that.

We say that Jesus is the Father and is NOT the Father.

You say that Jesus is NOT the Father period.

Based on the Scripture, if we take everything, we learn that Jesus is and is not the Father. So, your position and that of Modalists are, once again, only half correct.

I actually really want to see you, Unitarians and Modalists, have a debate on the nature of Jesus… must be good to watch, LOL! People who only take parts of the Scipture and consider it the whole truth!

And don’t ask me this: What are you trying to do with our Jesus? Devoid him of his unique identity? Why create him as one part of the three part God made into an image crafted from a theological mind?

Jesus explicitly said this:

John 5:23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father….. (NIV)

You seem like to want to honor the Son, Jesus, lower than you honor the Father, do you?

You are violating Jesus words here….

 

[Proclaimer]

Can you figure out who this YHWH is?

Did I ever say that He is the Trinity?

Remember Jesus said no one has seen the Father

Oh good, so you don’t believe that the 3 men were the Trinity. Moving on then. You say that one of them was YHWH himself, the Almighty God so to speak.

Then you say that no one can see the Father and I agree with you on that.

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37 (English-NIV)
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

Okay, all good so far. But scripture doesn’t just say that the Father is invisible,  but that God himself is invisible. Take a look at these verses:

1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

You and I both know that Jesus is not invisible. He was visible on Earth and in Heaven he has hair like wool, eyes of fire, and legs that glow like molten metal. Jesus is very much a visible being, thus he cannot be the invisible God right? And notice that the invisible God is also THE ONLY GOD as highlighted (bold)  above. This totally fits with Jesus own words on eternal life:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Can you not see that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. He is neither invisible and the original, rather visible and the image.

So what about these verses in the Old Testament where people are said to have seen YHWH? Well that is easy to answer. We know that the New Testament is a greater revelation than the old. The men that saw God or spoke with him face to face saw, an angel or the Angel of the Lord which many ascribe as being Jesus before he came in the flesh. In other words, they saw a messenger of God and maybe even the image of the invisible God. They saw a being that is visible and most like God who represents God and is the fullness of that God. They saw the one that shows us what God is like. The only one who has seen God and the only one who can declare him.

Take Moses for example. He is said to have conversed with God face to face. We read in Deut. 34:10 for example this: Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face . . . Yet we also know that it was the Angel of the Lord that he was conversing with.  You only need to read the context to see that.

There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up (Exodus 3: 2).

Then he spoke: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” (Exodus 3:6).

To explain what is going on here, Revelation 1:1 provides the perfect explanation.

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 

When the invisible God appears to people, he does so through his angels (messengers) and his son who are visible beings. God is eternal, thus no finite body can contain him. He is beyond our understanding, a spirit and eternal. How can you see a being that is infinite? When he talks and appears to us, his greatest glory and representation of him is the face of Jesus Christ followed by angels etc. In fact, the glory of one of these angels was so great that a prophet worshipped the angel. But if you saw Christ, then all the more so. But whatever you may say about God, you cannot deny that God is invisible and that no man has ever seen him. You can only say this if you disregard scripture. What men saw was the closest thing to seeing the invisible God, that is Jesus Christ, the Angel of the LORD, etc. If you understand this, then you do not need to force Jesus to become the only God who we know is invisible. Rather, he is the son of that God, the image of that God, the exact representation of that God.

You asked me is I can figure out who YHWH is. Well if he is the only God and the invisible God, then it is the Father. IF you think Jesus is YHWH, then he must be the only God and invisible. He clearly is neither of those.

[Togel]

T8,

Great! Finally you are willing to address this, instead of just ignoring this. I appreciate your willingness to do this.

I see that your reasoning is very close to the truth, but I think you are still missing a few points simply because you are tied to your theology.

When faced with such opposing/contradictory information from the Scripture:

1. God is visible, seen by men (OT)

Please don’t say “you say that one of them was YHWH himself” because it is not me saying, but the Scripture EXPLICITLY saying that:

Genesis 18:1  Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

It does not say “the messenger of the Lord” or “the Angel of the LORD”, but “THE LORD”.

Also here:

Exodus 24:10  and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11  But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Isaiah 6:1   In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

2  Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

The above verses also do not say “Angel of the Lord” or “messenger of the Lord” but THE LORD, sitting on His Throne! with the seraphims.

 

2. God is invisible, no man has seen Him

We have 1 of 3 possible positions to take:

1. Believe that A is right, and so B is somewhat wrong
2. Believe that B is right, and so A is somewhat wrong
3. Believe that A and B is right, just an explanation is needed

You seem to take the position of 2, by reading the NT idea into OT and thus declaring that OT is somewhat inaccurate. The OT verses clearly says GOD of Israel, and YHWH by name, but you are trying to impose the B position onto A. Your position is confirmed by your statement that NT is a greater revelation than NT. Who says so? There will no NT without the OT. The OT is the law that laid the foundation for the NT. The atonement for sin is laid down in the OT and fulfilled in the NT. So, you basically saying that the OT is not valid, and by invalidating the OT, you are invalidating the entire Scripture. And this is not right.

My position is simple, i.e. the 3rd position. Both revelations are right. Only an explanation is needed, and this explanation is given by Jesus.

When John wrote:

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus provides the explanation:

John 6:46 (English-NIV)
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Actually John already explains that as well:

John 1:18 (ESV) No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Here, you can rightly apply your “method”, By replacing God with the Father:

No man hath seen the Father (God) at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So, why dont’ you? :-)) It is in alignment with what Jesus Himself said: No one has seen the Father.

Therefore, I totally agree with your statement:

================

What men saw was the closest thing to seeing the invisible God, that is Jesus Christ,

================

So, from your statement above, we can conclude that the YHWH who visited Abraham, and seen by Moses and Isaiah was clearly the Son, who become incarnate and named Jesus Christ. Right? He was called YHWH, the Elohim of Israel. I believe this is what you wanted to say right? Because the Father is invisible, and nobody has seen Him except Jesus, then the Elohim of Israel, YHWH, that these OT people saw was clearly not the Father, but the Son, who was visible, and yet, He was called YHWH.

That is why He said in Isaiah 48:12

12  “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

And He repeated that in Revelation, several times.

 

Then you said:

==========

If you understand this, then you do not need to force Jesus to become the only God who we know is invisible. Rather, he is the son of that God, the image of that God, the exact representation of that God.

=============

I am NOT forcing Jesus to become the “only” God. The Modalists do. They BELIEVE that Jesus is the only God, who was the Father, who is then became the Holy Spirit. For me, it is clear that the Father is invisible, His name is YHWH, Jesus is His Image, visible (when He wants to be visible), who is the Elohim of Israel, and His name is also YHWH, but having a distinct personality to the Father.

So, clearly, Jesus is God, but is distinct from the Father who is invisible.

So perhaps my question to you again is this: Is the Son of God not God? Is the Image of God not God? If not God, then what is He? A being less than God? Not equal to God? (this is clearly rebutted by the Scripture, because Paul says that Jesus is equal to God). So, you are placing the Son below God and above the angel? Is that so?

In doing so, you have to remember that the Son is also YHWH, and so dare you call YHWH to be inferior to the Father?

And in doing so, remember this also; you quoted this verse:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

So, God is the King of Kings and Lord of lords. Guess what, the Lamb/the Son/Jesus also has that attribute:

Revelation 17:14  “These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Revelation 19:13, 16 – 13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God…………….16  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

So, please do not just stick to verses that seem to show the Son’s inferiority to the Father and ignoring the verses that show the Son’s equality with the Father, because it was the Son’s mission on earth to become “slave/bondservant”, emptying Himself, to become inferior to the Father, and even inferior to angels!! but look also to His Status before His coming to earth (OT), sitting on the throne with seraphims around Him, and AFTER His return to His glory in heaven (Revelation) where the Son shares the same attributes and name with the God the Father: the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Temple of Heaven, the Light in Heaven, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, sitting on one same throne with the Father.

 

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