Revelation 1:8

[terraricca]

Togel

look at my quote # 817753

God says that he start to created in the beginning not me so before the beginning of creation God was alone

and Paul says that Jesus /the WORD was his first creation

you are confused and try to twist others ,your knowledge in scriptures is poor and full of opinions

[Togel]

Terrarica,

No, Paul did not say that Jesus/the Word was God’s first creation. You definitely misunderstood the verse. Let’s read it again carefully:

Colossian 1:15-17

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Paul clearly says that the Son created everything (see verse 16).

John also wrote it very clearly:

(NKJV) John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

(KJV) John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Hebrew writer also explicitly says this, (God the Father says to the Son, the Word):

Hebrew 1:10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

John 1:3 says “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

Jesus could not be in the “made category” because if He is, then He will not exist.

Again, you stick only to a few verses by Paul, and ignore the other verses in the Scripture, including other verses written by Paul.

[Togel]

Terrarica,

So, you are saying that the YHWH and Elohim of Israel who visited Abraham, and seen by Moses and Isaiah is just an “ambassador”?

Read again:

Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”

There! Are you still saying that they saw an “ambassador” of God?

[terraricca]

Togel

You are so corruption in your mind that it stinks

You are so bias that only the stinking piles atracting your thoughts

You are only interested in pissing Mach with others no truth is found in you so I have no more time to wast with you

 

 

[Togel]

Terrarica,

Hmmm… is that all you can say? Where and how am I  corrupted?

I am only showing you verses from the Scripture, and you say that I am so bias?

I think it’s you who cannot accept the Scripture, and so it’s you who are biased towards a heretical teaching that is clearly not scriptural, and yet you accuse me of being so?

Don’t you see above, Moses and Isaiah saw YHWH, the Elohim of Yisrael, and you cannot accept that? Poor soul!

[Proclaimer]

T8,

You asked: Is the God of the Bible, the/a Trinity?

=======

I already answered! Yes, He is. God of the Bible has a triunitarian nature.

Then why is it that if you replace the word God for Trinity, it breaks the scripture?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Becomes: For THE TRINITY so loved the world that THE TRINITY gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

So if Jesus is part of the Trinity and the Trinity had a son, then who is the son of Jesus and the other members? Jesus Junior?

And if you think Jesus is God as you say, and the creator too, then also try replacing each instance of God with Jesus. So now you have:
For JESUS so loved the world that JESUS gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Clearly a fail for the most popular biblical verse and that is just the start. Try any of these 100 verses at random and read ‘the Trinity’ where ‘God’ appears. Then with the same random verses, replace it with the word ‘Father’ and see how the scripture is preserved. I cannot even wish you good luck here, but hopefully you are humble enough to learn from this. If not, then I might as well be talking to a Muslim or other person who refuse questioning on their beloved belief system.

Matthew 27:46
Mark 1:24
Mark 10:18
Mark 15:34
Mark 16:19
Luke 2:52
Luke 6:12
Luke 18:19
John 3:2
John 8:42
John 8:54
John 9:3
John 13:31
John 14:1*
John 17:3
John 20:17
Acts 2:22
Acts 2:32
Acts 2:36
Acts 3:13
Acts 4:10
Acts 5:30
Acts 7:55
Acts 10:36
Acts 10:38
Acts 13:23
Acts 20:21
Romans 1:7
Romans 1:8
Romans 2:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 4:24
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:11
Romans 5:15
Romans 5:17
Romans 6:23
Romans 7:25
Romans 8:34
Romans 10:9
Romans 15:5
Romans 15:6
Romans 16:27
1 Corinthians 1:3
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Corinthians 1:30
1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 15:57
2 Corinthians 1:2
2 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 11:31
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 1:1
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17
Ephesians 2:6
Ephesians 6:23
Philippians 1:2
Philippians 2:11
Colossians 1:3*
Colossians 3:17
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 1:3
1 Thessalonians 3:11
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 5:9
2 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
2 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Timothy 1:1
1 Timothy 1:2
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Timothy 5:21
1 Timothy 6:3
2 Timothy 1:1
2 Timothy 1:2
2 Timothy 4:1
Titus 1:4
Titus 2:13
Philemon 1:3
Hebrews 13:20
James 1:1
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:5
2 Peter 1:1
2 Peter 1:2
1 John 5:1*
1 John 5:20
2 John 1:3
Jude 1:1
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:21
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 1:2
Revelation 14:12

[Proclaimer]

You are saying that I am very like Moslems?

Not like them in believing the same doctrine, but by refusing to question ones own faith or religious culture. If we love the truth, then we love The Truth. But if we do not, then we love something else above the truth in this case, tradition.

[Togel]

T8,

You said:

Becomes: For THE TRINITY so loved the world that THE TRINITY gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

====

I don’t find any problem with that. If God’s nature is Trinitarian, and He is called Trinity, then so be it.

It is more unscriptural to change it to:

 

For THE UNITY (or how do you call God?) so loved the world that THE UNITY gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You said this as well:

And if you think Jesus is God as you say, and the creator too, then also try replacing each instance of God with Jesus. So now you have:
For JESUS so loved the world that JESUS gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

=====

There, you should ask the followers of another version of unitarian: the modalists. They believe that Jesus is God and the only God, who was actually the Father.

And remember, you are wrong, because it’s not “I think”! It is WRITTEN in the Scripture. It does not matter what I think or what you think! What matters is what is written in the Scripture. Or have you placed what you think above the authority of the Scripture? It seems like you have!

For Trinitarians, there is no problem with that verse, because Jesus is the name GIVEN to the man who was the incarnated Word/Son. So, technically you cannot say that. Jesus is the Son, who was given by God (the Trinitarian God) for the world.

And your test does not prove that the God of the Bible is a unitarian God, because it does NOT apply to some verses either:

Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Try changing God with Father:

You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore Father, Your Father, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Or this:

John 1:1-2

1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

Try changing God with the Father:

1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the Father, and the Word was the Father.
2 He (the Word = the Father) was in the beginning with the Father.

See? Because your test simply fails in some verses of the Bible, then it is a failed method.

It does not prove anything you know. It simply proves that your unitarian belief of God is unscriptural.

I hope you are humble enough to open your heart to the entire truth of the Scripture, not just its partial/incomplete truth.

And still, you have not answered me on this: Who was the YHWH/Elohim who visited Abraham, and seen by Moses and Isaiah? 

How many times do I have to ask you this question to get your answer? You keep evading this question, whereas this is the SCRIPTURAL key as to the nature of the Bible’s God. But you are afraid to answer it because YOU ARE AFRAID OF THE TRUTH!!

While I am saying that you are just like the Moslems, because the answers to your questions about the nature of Jesus are the same as those given to the Moslems. And this has nothing to do about tradition, but Scripture!! Or are you going to say that the Scripture is just a tradition?

 

[Togel]

T8,

I also want you to reread these verses again from Revelation:

Revelation 1: 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

So, this the Alpha and the Omega speaking, who is also THE ALMIGHTY

verse 11: saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,

So, the Alpha and the Omega is also called the First and the Last

verses `17-18

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive

Then to:

Re 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

So, clearly, this is Jesus Christ speaking; who was dead and came to life. He is the First and the Last, who is also the Alpha and the Omega, and apparently who is also THE ALMIGHTY.

Search if you wish in the Scripture and you will see that that name, The Almighty, belongs only to God. And Jesus uses that name as well. How are you going to reinterpret this?

Or, are you also going to say that The Father was dead and came to life? Because the Almighty is the Father (only) in your opinion?

[Proclaimer]

I don’t find any problem with that.

Oh boy. Well you are the one who said it. You are free to read the Bible and think Trinity where it says God. But I dare not make God into that image. Further, I dare not take the task of reading scripture with that filter on because it makes a mockery of it and God is not mocked.

So for you, this means:

• Jesus is exalted to the right hand of the Trinity;
• Paul’s salutations say ‘Grace and peace from The Trinity our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
• To our Trinity and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen;
• We always thank The Trinity, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray…;
• Grace and peace to you from The Trinity the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Take the first quick random point I make, Jesus is exalted to the right-hand of the Father, Son, Spirit. So that makes four. A Quinity. On that subject, you may be interested to know that preceding the Trinity Doctrine was the Binity. The Spirit was added some 60 years later in a new creed to form your belief today.

The other points says that the Trinity is the Father and then there is also Jesus added in. That doesn’t make any sense. One lie leads to another as the saying goes.

However, when you see it is the Father, then it remains in beautiful harmony because that is the truth.

Yes the world has drunk the wine of Babylon and are in a stupor. No doubt about it. I might as well be discussing with a Muslim or any other person who subscribes to a false mainstream religion and will hang into it no matter what. Even if there own book says otherwise. Funny how they all think they are right. They are as adamant as you. And no I do not think I am right. Jesus is right. The scriptures are right. That is what I respect. Other doctrines I am very wary of.

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

[Proclaimer]

The alpha and omega or first and last is a Jewish idiom that speaks of the ultimate in the category you are talking about. While God is clearly the ultimate without question, clearly Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and everlasting life is through him. Of course we would not say that God was the first and the last in this category because God was not born, rather he always was and is and is to come. I could theoretically use this idiom to describe myself if I was the author of this site and the first and the last to post here. That would make me the ultimate member of this website (category).

There is a map in London called the A-Z. It covers all the streets in London. It is the ultimate London street map. But if God is the A-Z (so to speak) then is he the ultimate map? Well we need to look at the category that we are defining don’t we.

In what category could Jesus be first and last? Well there are many, but here are a couple:

• He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2);
• He is the beginning of grace and the fulfilling/end of the Law (Matthew 5:17).

In the Revelation verse you quote, in what context is the the first and last? Well it tells you and you quoted it yourself.  “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive”. We know that because Jesus rose from the dead, that many others arise thereafter. He is the firstborn from the dead right? Further, we know that God cannot die and that this is not talking about God as you say. Satan would love you to believe that God could die. But he is the God of the living not the dead. If God died, then it would be game over for all life. That would be impossible though and we should be very thankful for that.

[Togel]

T8,

I said that your method is a failed method, but you keep forcing it!

We don’t do that, it’s you who did that, trying to replace God with “Trinity”. When the Bible writers wrote “God” it could include “all three persons” of God, it could be the Father, it could be the Son, or it could also be the Holy Spirit. Since each of the persons is God. So, actually replacing all occurrences of God in the Bible with Trinity does not work, but neither is replacing all occurences of God in the Bible with “The Father”. You just can’t replace all “God” in the Bible with “the Father”, as I have shown you in those verses.

The only working solution is to replace God with whichever suits best. It could be the Father, but it could also be the Son, or since we don’t know who’s at work, we should leave them as they are “God”.

Exampel Hebrew 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore Son (God), Your Father (God), has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

See, it works that way!

When we don’t know which person of the Bible’s God is referred to, we don’t know; so we just use it as it is: God. However, in some cases, we can see clearly whom the Bible is talking about: the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

 

 

[Togel]

T8,

You are missing my point!!

I do not intend to talk about “the First and the Last” because you have found a way to twist it.

I am only using that to identify the speaker: Jesus Christ. And He is claiming to be THE ALMIGHTY!

Now, do you get the point. How are you going to deny that since Jesus, who has died and came to life, is apparently THE ALMIGHTY?

I see your options: calling the Revelation a book of lie, trying to twist the translation again, or John erroneously wrote it?

Let’s see how you twist this……

Also, I am still waiting for your explanation about YHWH visiting Abraham… are you afraid of the truth?

Yes, I am aware of the binitarian… there’s a book by a Jew called “Two Powers in Heaven” by Alan F. Segal. This books shows that in Jesus’ time, the Jews believe in more than one persons of God, which is SCRIPTURAL indeed, but in response to Christianity, they then considered it heretical!

[Togel]

T8,

You are missing my point!!

I do not intend to talk about “the First and the Last” because you have found a way to twist it.

I am only using that to identify the speaker: Jesus Christ. And He is claiming to be THE ALMIGHTY!

Now, do you get the point. How are you going to deny that since Jesus, who has died and came to life, is apparently THE ALMIGHTY?

I see your options: calling the Revelation a book of lie, trying to twist the translation again, or John erroneously wrote it?

Let’s see how you twist this……

And don’t be silly: you are talking exactly like the Moslems: How could God die? This is really sounding like a Moslem talking. Jesus “died” in physical form. Our spirits are eternal, and God is Spirit, so He can never die. But so can’t we!! So, when Jesus physically died, did his Spirit die? Of course not! Even the spirit of a heathen does not die when he dies! How could you be such silly?

Also, I am still waiting for your explanation about YHWH visiting Abraham… are you afraid of the truth?

Yes, I am aware of the binitarian… there’s a book by a Jew called “Two Powers in Heaven” by Alan F. Segal. This book shows that in Jesus’ time, the Jews believe in more than one persons of God, which is SCRIPTURAL indeed, but in response to Christianity, they then considered it heretical!

[terraricca]

togel

you have no point ,you just have a believe that you are defending disregarding the scriptures

 

[Proclaimer]

I said that your method is a failed method, but you keep forcing it!

It is not my method but yours. I see God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ as scripture teaches, but your method is a single being (him) made up of three persons which is not present in scripture. You are the one with the method and I have simply tested it. That is, when you read God in scripture your view is ‘Trinity’. But it doesn’t work does it?

[Proclaimer]

I am only using that to identify the speaker: Jesus Christ. And He is claiming to be THE ALMIGHTY!

Well you did point out both scriptures. But let me answer this question too.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God as well as Jesus. You can’t just blur them together and make all the statements point to Jesus. Sometimes it is God, sometimes it is Jesus. You see this throughout the Book of Revelation and the New Testament.

Reading the beginning of the book and looking at the hierarchy of authority that delivered this message is as follows: God > Jesus > Angel > John > Church

It is quite normal for both God and Jesus to be mentioned in scripture together, but identified as different with different roles. Here is another example.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Most so-called Trinity proof verses simply make no distinction between God and Jesus and then read them from there. They just ignore this part and then read whatever they want as Jesus, while it may well be talking about the Father. You can’t do that because that is not how the book was written and is not meant to be understood using that methodology. You cannot ignore the Father like that. If you do not have the Father or acknowledge him, then how can you have the son? First the Father, togel, then the son.

[Proclaimer]

When the Bible writers wrote “God” it could include “all three persons” of God, it could be the Father, it could be the Son, or it could also be the Holy Spirit. Since each of the persons is God.

Okay. Read those hundred verses that I took about God (at random). Try replacing the word God with Son. You still have a mountain of confusion.

• For the Son so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son… So Jesus has a son now?
• yet for us there is but one God, the Son, from whom all things came…
• And why do you not see, verses like, “grace from the Father AND from God”?

I mean really. Do you even believe Jesus own words of eternal life?

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The Trinity Doctrine like the Islam Doctrine or other mainstream religious doctrines are but the traditions of men and doctrine of demons that lead many astray. If you do not want to be led astray, then listen and believe Jesus own words. Don’t follow the tradition as set by Athanasius and Constantine as they nullify the power of God.

[Togel]

T8,

Did you not read my post? Replacing *ALL* God with the Father also does NOT work!

So, once again, your method does not work.

As for Trinity, you cannot just replace All Gods into Trinity because sometimes God refers to the Son and sometimes to the Father, and sometimes to All. That’s why it does not seem to work.

[Togel]

T8,

You said:

Okay. Read those hundred verses that I took about God (at random). Try replacing the word God with Son. You still have a mountain of confusion.

=====

You are clearly being STUPID here. We cannot do that, as well as we cannot replace God with the Father in *ALL* Bible verses. You have to GET RID OF THE IDEA of God being an absolute ONE to be able to understand those verses and replace God with the correct person.

The doctrine of Unitarianism is a minority doctrine not adhered to by the majority of Christians who live by the Spirit of God, that’s why it was considered heretical from the very beginning, because it has no Scriptural basis. Do not follow a heretical tradition invented by the mind of man: Arius!

Read the Bible in full and understand the ENTIRE truth.

When you cannot understand or explain part of the Bible because of your theology, you should NOT abandon the Bible to stick to your theology, but you should ABANDON YOUR THEOLOGY to STICK TO THE BIBLE!

When, due to your unscriptural theology, you clearly cannot explain who the YHVH (or YHWH)/Elohim of Israel who visited Abraham and whom Moses and Isaiah saw was, while Jesus EXPLICITLY said that no one has ever seen THE FATHER, and Paul also says the same, and John also says the same, EXPLICITLY, you should abandon it, instead of just IGNORING the Bible. You know what, your theology is based on IGNORING the Bible.

DO NOT EVER DARE to give me advice to leave my belief when you cannot even answer me on this issue! How can you try to convince others when you cannot answer them? Are you a philosopher only, who base your judgement solely on human mind and not the Scripture? Even philosophers have answers to nearly all questions. But you don’t!

[Author]

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