Renewing

Participant

I would like to renew this conversation on a better playing field.

This is a quote from T8:

Quote

I thought it pertinent to create a discussion about powerful delusions.

I will make a list and feel free to add to it or edit it.

Evolution
Alienology
Trinity
Unitarianism

Please correct me if I have used the wrong titles.
I am not sure what the title is for those who believe humans are a genetically modified species made by aliens. And I am not sure what the title is for those who deny that Jesus existed in any other form but a man.

Perhaps we come up with a list of the top most powerful delusions to keep us away from the truth found in scripture.

His follow up,

Quote

Here is how I see this system of deceptions work.

Give a person Evolution and deny them God.

If they are smart enough to realise that we are created, then give them the idea that the creator is an alien species who genetically modified us.

If they don’t fall for any of the above two and believe in a creator outside of creation, then give them the Trinity or another God.

If they know that the Trinity or other Gods are wrong, then make them deny the son by giving them a doctrine that says Jesus started life as a created a man 2000 years ago and did not exist with God in the beginning in any form and certainly was not that which God created all things through.

I find in these forums that we debate with people who are under one or more of these influences.
And we tend to spend a reasonable amount of time exposing the lies of these.

Can anyone add to the steps above that attempt to keep men away from God?

By what I can tell he is trying to explain why some are decieved.

July 7, 2012 at 2:19 pm#305212

seekingtruth

Participant

I thought it was more how, than why.

July 8, 2012 at 12:44 am#305269

Participant

A simple rebuttal:

1)Evolution:
Pretty sure ones just take for granted the creation theory means god created humans, however correct me if I am wrong, think it just says male and female.
Ref:(Genesis 1:27 ESV)
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Perhaps someone can tell me what exactly god looks like. By what my understanding is god is to be a spirit.

2)Alienology
Bless their hearts, just another form of finding god, in a strange way.

3)Trinity
This one gets me every time, fought tooth and nail for years against this teaching. However it did bring on some interesting reads.
Question though, why is it if one believes in the trinity they are still consider believers or per say not a skeptic by the standards or beliefs of T8 and others? Makes you think doesn't it.

4)Unitarianism
ah, the godman debate. divinity versus deity, of god, from god. before or after. You would think that if one cannot get it straight on jesus really was, doesn't really do much good in trying to follow him, does it.
So if jesus was just a man, then all men are sons of god, if he had 'special' powers then kinda puts mankind out of the running to be like him.
The ones who place him as being eternal have a hard time explaining the trinity theory away.

So in all honesty the deceiving comes from the bible itself and man just add's more folly over the matter.

July 8, 2012 at 12:46 am#305270

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 08 2012,01:19)

I thought it was more how, than why.

I would have to say you cannot have a why without a how or vise versa when it comes to the subject.

July 8, 2012 at 3:52 am#305285

Participant

Quote (princess @ July 08 2012,18:46)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 08 2012,01:19)

I thought it was more how, than why.

I would have to say you cannot have a why without a how or vise versa when it comes to the subject.

hi princess

and yes you right they are both together how and why ;

why; it has to be creation ,because this is were men are equal;
and all can do;the why and how

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

but for now we are still all mingled together on this earth ,

July 8, 2012 at 11:30 am#305294

Stu

Participant

What's this about evolution being a delusion?

It is a good question to ask what a god looks like, and no one should accept the answer that it is invisible / shy / “outside time” or any other nonsense. This is the special pleading of those who could make claims of knowledge they cannot have for themselves, for the same reasons they give other people.

Modern editions of Origin of Species have an image of Charles Darwin, or sometimes other great apes, or pictures of fossils or reconstructions of the flesh that used to cover those fossil remains.

Why doesn't the Judeo-christian scripture have a photograph or painting of the creator on the front?

Why do creationist books have hilarious photoshopped images of humans riding on dinosaurs?

There's the delusion.

Stuart

July 8, 2012 at 4:42 pm#305312

Blocked

Quote (Stu @ July 08 2012,05:30)

It is a good question to ask what a god looks like, and no one should accept the answer that it is invisible / shy / “outside time” or any other nonsense.

And can you see an atom with the naked human eye, Stu? Hmmm…………… since you can't, I guess they don't really exist.

Surely you don't believe that the only things that exist are the things we can see with our eyes, do you?

July 9, 2012 at 4:56 am#305390

Stu

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,03:42)

Quote (Stu @ July 08 2012,05:30)

It is a good question to ask what a god looks like, and no one should accept the answer that it is invisible / shy / “outside time” or any other nonsense.

And can you see an atom with the naked human eye, Stu? Hmmm…………… since you can't, I guess they don't really exist.

Surely you don't believe that the only things that exist are the things we can see with our eyes, do you?

Firstly, here is a picture of platinum atoms:

We can see atoms with our eyes, there they are.

And, secondly, I would accept it if you could give a plausible explanation for why you cannot see gods with the unaided eye.

The equivalent explanation regarding atoms is that the wavelength of light visible to your eyes is too long to see atoms, and the resolving power of your lens (and possibly your retina) is too low.

So, why can't we see gods? Are they shy? Do you need a special relationship with them before they will avail themselves? Then, can you actually see them?

I might even give your claims some consideration if all christians basically gave the same explanation for why we can't see gods. But of course they can't. They give a wide variety of hilarious nonsense that they have learned from all sorts of hilarious pastors and other ignorant idiots. Compare atoms again: all physicists, no matter where they trained, or what sub-field they work in, should be expected to give exactly the same answer to why you can't see them.

Sorry Mike. You cannot possibly know anything more about gods than I can possibly know. You are unquestionably bluffing. Which is at least amusing, even if you do take it all so hilariously seriously.

You should warn me now that I won't be laughing anymore when I find out your “truth” for myself.

To which my reply is that you are exactly the same species as me, with exactly the same capacity for sense perception as me, and you are bluffing because the same logic that says I can't see any of this magical apparatus of the gods also says that you can't see any of this magical divine apparatus either.

No picture. No alternative explanation. No credibility.

Stuart

July 9, 2012 at 3:33 pm#305410

Ed J

Participant

Hi Stuart,

You cannot see your mind, only it's effects.
You cannot see God, you can only see his effects.
You cannot see God mind like you cannot see your mind.

Hope this helps,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 10, 2012 at 7:14 am#305516

Stu

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 10 2012,02:33)

Hi Stuart,

You cannot see your mind, only it's effects.
You cannot see God, you can only see his effects.
You cannot see God mind like you cannot see your mind.

Hope this helps,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

You hope it helps what?

Stuart

July 10, 2012 at 11:16 pm#305546

Blocked

Quote (Stu @ July 08 2012,22:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,03:42)

Quote (Stu @ July 08 2012,05:30)

It is a good question to ask what a god looks like, and no one should accept the answer that it is invisible / shy / “outside time” or any other nonsense.

And can you see an atom with the naked human eye, Stu? Hmmm…………… since you can't, I guess they don't really exist.

Surely you don't believe that the only things that exist are the things we can see with our eyes, do you?

We can see atoms with our eyes, there they are.

My naked human eye was not seeing a platinum atom, but an image produced from a very powerful electron microscope.

Shall I draw a picture of God and tell you, We can see God with our eyes, there He is?

Can you look at a piece of platinum with your naked eye and see the atoms that comprise it? NO. Does that mean those atoms don't exist?

Stu, I'm not interested in a God debate with you. I only commented because of the weak statement you made. Surely you are more intelligent than to say, We can't SEE it, therefore it doesn't exist, right?

July 11, 2012 at 1:54 am#305566

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2012,14:52)

Quote (princess @ July 08 2012,18:46)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 08 2012,01:19)

I thought it was more how, than why.

I would have to say you cannot have a why without a how or vise versa when it comes to the subject.

hi princess

and yes you right they are both together how and why ;

why; it has to be creation ,because this is were men are equal;
and all can do;the why and how

but for now we are still all mingled together on this earth ,

Good day T,

Who is Lord to you? God of the Hebrews/Jews or God of the Christians?

There can only be one God T, no others. Even to place Jesus in the running for a god, form of a god, part of a god. You find yourself in polytheism, and the list continues as the gods or part of a god is added.

T, there are some that turn from unhealthy or bad behavior, not due to god but due the consequences or lesson that have come from such. Just because God is not attached to the story doesn't make any less admirable. Some use god some don't.
The main factor is changing the unhealthy behavior, now if one wants to use god, then so be it, but the same should be given to those that choose not to.
However, that cannot be the case, due to by the faith of the bible nothing can do this but god, so basically humanity cannot decide for themselves, and that my friend is babaric religion. The catholic church tried this for years and look at them now, really do you want what is called christianity to turn out the same?

July 11, 2012 at 1:59 am#305567

Blocked

Quote (princess @ July 10 2012,19:54)

You find yourself in polytheism, and the list continues as the gods or part of a god is added.

If by “polytheism”, you mean the BELIEF that more than one god exists, then virtually every writer of scripture was a polytheist.

If you mean the WORSHIP of more than one god, then that practice is frowned upon by the Most High God and God of gods (both titles Jehovah could never hold if there weren't other gods in existence).

There are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth, yet for us, there is but one God, the Father…………..

This is not a literal “ONE”, or it would nullify the first part of Paul's statement, (not to mention the fact he called Satan the god of this world). Instead, it is an emphatic statement telling us which God we will serve and worship as our God.

July 11, 2012 at 2:13 am#305569

Participant

Quote (princess @ July 11 2012,19:54)

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2012,14:52)

Quote (princess @ July 08 2012,18:46)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 08 2012,01:19)

I thought it was more how, than why.

I would have to say you cannot have a why without a how or vise versa when it comes to the subject.

hi princess

and yes you right they are both together how and why ;

why; it has to be creation ,because this is were men are equal;
and all can do;the why and how

but for now we are still all mingled together on this earth ,

Good day T,

Who is Lord to you? God of the Hebrews/Jews or God of the Christians?

Princess

hi,

their is only one God ,the God of creation of all things,
and you right many people are turning away of bad behavior for other reason than to please God ,it could be ,a women,a child,a parent, a goal in live, for hearth reason, and because it makes more sens ,ect

but what ever it is ,it was already mention in the scriptures long ago,so this is not new but only new to those that start to practice it ,just like wickedness his a old behavior no news their ,

also for your info I personly do not like organized religion with a passion, their guilt is on their heads ,

I do not mix my God with men's made religion ,I can stand beside My God and his word against all ,because I trust in God and his son ,

what ever others do his not my concern ,what I say and do is .

July 11, 2012 at 2:16 am#305570

Participant

Quote (princess @ July 11 2012,19:54)

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2012,14:52)

Quote (princess @ July 08 2012,18:46)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 08 2012,01:19)

I thought it was more how, than why.

I would have to say you cannot have a why without a how or vise versa when it comes to the subject.

hi princess

and yes you right they are both together how and why ;

why; it has to be creation ,because this is were men are equal;
and all can do;the why and how

but for now we are still all mingled together on this earth ,

Good day T,

Who is Lord to you? God of the Hebrews/Jews or God of the Christians?

Princess

Quote

but the same should be given to those that choose not to.

given what

July 11, 2012 at 2:53 am#305573

Participant

Quote

Paul's statement

How quaint Mike, how you use one god against the other.

Quote

If by “polytheism”, you mean the BELIEF that more than one god exists, then virtually every writer of scripture was a polytheist.

I am prone to agree with you Mike, due to most came from worshipping many gods, and I find it quite surprising for a man of your 'knowledge' to use such a reference, due to it has been documented that the tanak is a collection of the worship of different gods while setting the tone that even the names of the gods were different all along it was just one god. Remember the old pagan trick, combing gods to make one great god.

But now, your adding to the act by telling me there is more than one god in heaven, oh Mike what are you going to do when you find out they could be women. I can see it now………talking to god and trying to explain to him how he made the mistake of having a woman as a god. I personally like the idea, gives a girl an extra skip in her step knowing that she could make to goddess status, I'm in and if all goes well, I will get to be the goddess that you are giving god greif about…………. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

July 11, 2012 at 3:21 am#305574

Participant

terraricca,July wrote:

[/quote]
T you write:
what ever others do his not my concern ,what I say and do is .

Unfortunately T, it is your concern.

I had to go into corporate today, papers needed signed, had to sit down with fiscal to discuss budget blah blah blah, anyway there is a woman there that 'makes' herself to be the greatest Christian there is, even her signature says, quit telling god how big your problems are and start telling your problems how big your god is. I know it well seen it a few times, well needless to say I am one person she loves to talk to or witness too, and of course her first words to me were God is so good, he blessed me, that's great I said how did this happen, she tells me her former sister & brother in law gave her a van, newer model ect, ect…that nice I said, then she continues to tell me she is going to pay it forward, told her that was wonderful how was she going to do this, well she said my housekeeper/babysitter is in need of a vehicle, so I am going to..get this have her pay me for my old van by working the barter system. My mouth about dropped to the floor, she must have seen my expression because she soon told me what she pays the woman and hour, didn't help because then I started calculating the hours the woman would have to work to attain the monies.
So of course I had to ask what thought process did you use to come about that paying it forward meant paying it forward to you, she tells me oh the woman is too proud to not pay for the vehicle, alright I understand I said then why not sell it to her for like twenty dollars……well she said it has already been decided and I am not going back on it now.

So yes T, what you say and do does effect others on how they view god.

July 11, 2012 at 5:27 am#305578

Participant

Quote (princess @ July 11 2012,21:21)

terraricca,July wrote:

[/quote]
T you write:
what ever others do his not my concern ,what I say and do is .

Unfortunately T, it is your concern.

So yes T, what you say and do does effect others on how they view god.

Princess

please read my quote again;

Quote

what ever others do his not my concern ,what I say and do is .

Unfortunately T, it is your concern.

understand that before my God I am judged for what I say and do ,but he does not judge me for what others do ,all of us will be judged for what we have said and done

so what so call self indulged Christian does or say is not my concern ,if confronted with it then I will handled as it should be ,but until then it does not concern me ,many have a Christian face but not the heart so it is God that judge the heart,

Quote

So yes T, what you say and do does effect others on how they view god.

this I know it does ,this is why I told you my concern is what I say and do

look if i would be the one in that office ;I would have ask you to sit ,and ask you what can I do for you ? I would listen to your problem and handled in a fair manner , this is what I mean my concern is what I say and do before my God

July 11, 2012 at 9:05 pm#305604

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Stu @ July 10 2012,18:14)

Quote (Ed J @ July 10 2012,02:33)

Hi Stuart,

You cannot see your mind, only it's effects.
You cannot see God, you can only see his effects.
You cannot see God mind like you cannot see your mind.

Hope this helps,
Ed J

You hope it helps what?

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Your understanding through comparative analysis.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 12, 2012 at 12:24 am#305664