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Meerkat
Whether the lake of fire is real or not is actually besides the point, what matters is, if you end up in it, you will be destroyed for ever, body and spirit.
The angels that followed Satan in his rebellion, are commonly referred to as demons; in my Bible they are called devils.
Look at the world and see what condition it is in, it is spiritually dead, without God's Holy Spirit.
When you are physically dead, they put you in your hell, grave. Hell, Sheol, Hades, all means the same, the place were the dead bodies are laid.
We all die in Adam, we are cursed with death, even before we committed a sin we were doomed to die. In other words, we don't die for our sins now.
This is how God arranged it so beautifully, by cursing Adam with death he cursed all humanity; when Jesus ransomed Adam from the grave, he not only removed the curse from Adam, but from all humanity too; otherwise Jesus had to die for each and every one of us. Jesus died once for Adam, but his sacrifice can be applied to all who have faith in Jesus Christ. In Adam we die, in Christ we live.
By overcoming Satan, who has the power of death, he overcame death.
No, not as I say, but as the Bible says; Rev. 20:7-9.
I believe the fire in the lake of fire is real; unless you think the fire coming down on Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't real, or the fire that consumed the sons of Aaron who brought strange fire to the altar. Fire always destroys something; Peter used it to describe the trials the saints had to go through.1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Antichrist brought fire down from his heaven, place of religious authority, on the earth, people.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Jesus was all human, he died as a human, and God raised him up as a spirit being again, because the human body had to remain in the grave, it was the exchange for Adam, the ransom.
God of course would not allow his body to decay, and so he disposed of it.Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Georg
Meerkat
The breath of life is not your soul.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
There is nothing in these scriptures that give even a hind that anything of you remains alive or conscious, when you’re dead. You cannot have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time, etc. etc.; neither can you be dead and alive at the same time. There is nothing immortal about us or in us. Nowhere in the bible will you find that when the body dies the “soul” lives on, you are the soul.
Georg
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 20 2008,10:07) Death is not a physical place – our body decomposes spirit goes back to God – the breath of life from God made the dust a living soul with out the breath of life and the physical body there is nothing only “death”
Hi MK,
Jesus gave us a good description of the waiting place called Hades in Lk16. There is no need for such a place after the second resurrection and judgement so it goes into the lake of fire.Again in Lk16 is shown the bosom of Abraham where those alive to God await their time of rejoicing with Christ in the Millenial kingdom. Possibly this is what is also called “death” ?
Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 20 2008,11:10) Meerkat Whether the lake of fire is real or not is actually besides the point, what matters is, if you end up in it, you will be destroyed for ever, body and spirit.
The angels that followed Satan in his rebellion, are commonly referred to as demons; in my Bible they are called devils.
Look at the world and see what condition it is in, it is spiritually dead, without God's Holy Spirit.
When you are physically dead, they put you in your hell, grave. Hell, Sheol, Hades, all means the same, the place were the dead bodies are laid.
We all die in Adam, we are cursed with death, even before we committed a sin we were doomed to die. In other words, we don't die for our sins now.
This is how God arranged it so beautifully, by cursing Adam with death he cursed all humanity; when Jesus ransomed Adam from the grave, he not only removed the curse from Adam, but from all humanity too; otherwise Jesus had to die for each and every one of us. Jesus died once for Adam, but his sacrifice can be applied to all who have faith in Jesus Christ. In Adam we die, in Christ we live.
By overcoming Satan, who has the power of death, he overcame death.
No, not as I say, but as the Bible says; Rev. 20:7-9.
I believe the fire in the lake of fire is real; unless you think the fire coming down on Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't real, or the fire that consumed the sons of Aaron who brought strange fire to the altar. Fire always destroys something; Peter used it to describe the trials the saints had to go through.1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Antichrist brought fire down from his heaven, place of religious authority, on the earth, people.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Jesus was all human, he died as a human, and God raised him up as a spirit being again, because the human body had to remain in the grave, it was the exchange for Adam, the ransom.
God of course would not allow his body to decay, and so he disposed of it.Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Georg
GeorgWhere does it say that spirit is to be destroyed in the “lake of fire” ? from what I have read in scripture it is the body and soul.
1 Peter 4:6 1 Peter 4:6 (King James Version)
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Yes if we look at the world there is a lot of evil in it on a national level as well as a personal level – however on a personal level I do see some good as well.
When the fire of Sodom/Gommorah is referred to it is as a type (destruction of the flesh)
Yes I agree that Jesus body and flesh was destroyed and he was raised in the spirit by the Holy Spirit – that is what resurrection is about.
Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 20 2008,11:25) Meerkat The breath of life is not your soul.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
There is nothing in these scriptures that give even a hind that anything of you remains alive or conscious, when you’re dead. You cannot have light and dark in the same room at the same time, or hot and cold in the same cup at the same time, etc. etc.; neither can you be dead and alive at the same time. There is nothing immortal about us or in us. Nowhere in the bible will you find that when the body dies the “soul” lives on, you are the soul.
Georg
I agree – the breath of life returns to God who gave it …….. death is deathMeerkat
When Paul says , there is a spirit in man, he is not saying that is your soul.
1 Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
This spirit is our mind, or call it intellect; it allows us to understand the physical world only.
To understand the spiritual world, we need the spirit of God, God's Holy Spirit. The Bible is the written Word of God, when we read in it and ask God for understanding, he gives us his Holy Spirit; only then will be be able to understand his Word.Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
The spirit of the world is Satan's spirit, he has deceived the whole world with it.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Satan knows he has but a short time left, problem is, the world don't know it.
When we die the first time, only the body dies, our mind/spirit/intellect is preserved by God. At our resurrection we will recall everything that is in our mind now. The second death destroys both, body and mind/spirit.
It is hard to understand truth, when your hindered with untruth.Georg
Georg…..you have properly stated, The Spirit is our mind or intellect, and it does not die, why because (thought) can not die, it may cease to function in a body it was in, but itself cannot die, So it returns to its source which is GOD. When thought combines with a body (what ever form that body is in) it becomes a living Soul. All thought both good and evil always existed there is no new thought, while it may be newly introduced to us , it has always existed and it's source is GOD. Thats why its so important we ask God for His SPIRIT or (thoughts). Jesus said you being (existing in a state) of evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will God give of His spirit (mind or thoughts) to them that ask. WE NEED to ALL ASK, remember we recieve not if we don't ask.
enjoy your posts Georg, love to you and yours………………………………gene
Georg……I forgot to add scripture says “let this (MIND) be in you that was also in Christ Jesus our LORD” , And it also says if this (MIND) God's Spirit be in you (IT) will quicken your mortal bodies also. so yes the mind is Spirit and return to God when our Bodies die. The mind without a doubt is SPIRIT and it animates our bodies.
love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
GB,
So if you stitch these two truths together you can draw conclusions that are equally valid?
No you should not add inference to what is written.Nick…….that your problem you can put scripture together and get the proper conclusions so as long as you can't then you will not get the proper understandings. “THE SUM OF GODS WORD IS TRUTH” we need to put things together NICK.
love to you……………….gene
GB,
Let scripture teach.
We do not cobble verses together indiscriminately to justify our doctrines.Nick
Nick everyone has to match scripture against scripture because the plan of God is revealed in ALL of scripture in all of the books, Genesis has prophecy in it which matches to Revelation – it is set up as a piece here and a piece there to be put together – when you use scripture from Corinthians and Revelation and Matthew and other books to cobble together a doctrine of the eternal torment or “rapture” you are doing exactly what you are accusing Gene of, using scripture to support you doctrine.
Hi MK,
I agree that verse must be compared with verse and so truth is built up.So looking at what Gene did
“Georg……I forgot to add scripture says “let this (MIND) be in you that was also in Christ Jesus our LORD” ,
So he shows a scripture about the mind of Christ
“And it also says if this (MIND) God's Spirit be in you (IT) will quicken your mortal bodies also. so yes the mind is Spirit and return to God when our Bodies die. The mind without a doubt is SPIRIT and it animates our bodies. “
Then he shows a scripture about the Spirit which is similar.
He adds the word MIND and then proceeds to tell us the verses therefore mean the same.
Similarity between verses does not prove anything-they must say the same thing.
Such logic is facile and unscriptural and proves nothing.
We could find a verse that says Stephen was filled with the Spirit and another that Jesus was also filled and thus falsely conclude by such logic that Stephen was Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2008,06:33) GB,
Let scripture teach.
We do not cobble verses together indiscriminately to justify our doctrines.
Let the Holy Spirit teach, study the scriptures – I believe the Holy Spirit is the teacher and the scriptures are the text books with the curriculum in it.As Jesus said to the pharisees
Quote John 5:39-40 (King James Version) 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
To whom it may concern.
True, all life begins with God, but only Adam who was made of clay, God personally gave the breath of life. God did not have to breathe in any one of us.
Did you know animals have a spirit too? Solomon wrote the book of Ecclesiastes, we all know he was pretty smart, and yet he ask the question; which spirit goes up?Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
I gave plenty explanation a page or so back, no need to repeat myself.
I just leave it at that.Georg
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 19 2008,05:14) I haven't got all scriptures or pursued this in depth, looking for discussion and applicable scriptures. When I read scriptures I see a mention of seeds, planting, sowing and remnants being saved.
I have been wondering if anyone else has thought that a meaning for the “remnant being saved” is that while flesh (body and soul) are to be destroyed (do not inherit the kingdom of God) that there is a remnant of all – a spiritual seed in all that will be saved.
This also ties back to first natural – then spiritual.
Adam was created totally natural with a spiritual seed. I believe that Adam was not created spiritual, then fell and is to be rescued to a spiritual state with only a remnant of his progeny.
no, thats not what I gather from the passages that speak of a remnant being saved…. it seems to me that since a remnant is defined as a smaller part left behind of a larger whole, and the word is used only 2 times in the NASB, eg at
Romans 9:27-28 (NASB) 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea , it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 For the Lord will execute His word on the earth , thoroughly and quickly.”
and
Romans 11:5 (NASB) In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.”Where the NASB concordance defines the word in which “remnant” is translated:
(Definition: to leave, leave behind:–
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
lack (1),
lacking (2),
lacks (1),
need (1),
remains (1).
—NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary)and that typically it is used in reference to a smaller group being saved from within Israel, and that since Paul lets us know that not all Israel is Israel, and that salvation is not tied to the ethnic or geographical location of Israel at all, but is rather a matter of the heart;
Romans 9:6-8 (NASB) 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”
and
Romans 11:5-6 (NASB) 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.that the phrase is just referring to the elect…. a chosen people, a people within a people if you will, who are the elect of God, by God's gracious choice….. and these people are elect based solely on the grace and mercy of God who has selected them from out of a sinful race… and this is exactly what Paul is dealing with in Romans 9 and 11… the remnant then, is no other than those chosen by God unto salvation by grace and not by works….
blessings,
kenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2008,07:04) Hi MK,
I agree that verse must be compared with verse and so truth is built up.So looking at what Gene did
“Georg……I forgot to add scripture says “let this (MIND) be in you that was also in Christ Jesus our LORD” ,
So he shows a scripture about the mind of Christ
“And it also says if this (MIND) God's Spirit be in you (IT) will quicken your mortal bodies also. so yes the mind is Spirit and return to God when our Bodies die. The mind without a doubt is SPIRIT and it animates our bodies. “
Then he shows a scripture about the Spirit which is similar.
He adds the word MIND and then proceeds to tell us the verses therefore mean the same.
Similarity between verses does not prove anything-they must say the same thing.
Such logic is facile and unscriptural and proves nothing.
We could find a verse that says Stephen was filled with the Spirit and another that Jesus was also filled and thus falsely conclude by such logic that Stephen was Jesus.
Nick………since you say similarity between scripture can not mean the same. that in itself Shows you inability to put scripture together. Prove where i said in one scripture that is not supported by the others i used.. If you can't then Don't give obviously Stupid reasoning. I never gave such a stupid example like you posted, thats just your effort of trying to make me appear as un knowledgeable of scriptures. I'll match me scriptural understand with you any day of the week. I believe your lack of putting scriptures together is a big hinderence to you and many here, Or you would not be pushing you misguided FEAR theologies.. I am not alone in know you lack of scriptural understanding many here know it.
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