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Quote (princess @ Dec. 08 2011,10:58) BD, At times I often wonder do people really proof read their own words, your comment to Edj about scripture being scripture is correct, you must remember though, now the koran is placed in that category also.
Perhaps I can help you understand Shimmers post a bit more, so relevance can be seen. She is quoting passages about how the anti christ will interact, come about, and what this antichrist will teach.
It seems that a comparison could be drawn from your belief system that Jesus is not the son of god as she quoted in her second paragraph, that he will arise from within your holy city ect. ect.
So yes there is reference to Islam and context in her post.
Hi Pricess
Actually that would not be correct because there is no belief at all in Islam that Jesus is not the Messiah(Christ) in-fact it is a very serious belief you cannot even be a Muslim unless you believe that Jesus is The Christ.
The Jewish religion does not believe that Jesus is Christ at all not even a possibility for them but you will never hear a Muslim say that Jesus is not The Christ.
Regarding the totle “Son of God” Muslims don't simply reject Jesus as The Son of God the fact is Muslims reject any human being calling themself the son of God in anything more than a metaphoric sense and the fact is Jesus was a Spirit that proceded from God and was CREATED by God Jesus was not begat like my mom and dad begat me unless you want to devalue God and say HE was intimate with Mary and we know that is a blasphemous thought, right?
Yeah Princess I can't understand it. Bod say's lets reason together and I try to and he becomes hostile (haha).
Bod seems to think I'v changed. OK, so maybe I have but I'm starting to see things again.
Bod, these writings I gave were writen long ago (100-200AD or something) by SAINTS. So, they must be relevant, if you consider the fact that a lot they said has happened.
I'm trying to say that I don't think it's Islam they were talking about, but maybe Zionism??Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 07 2011,21:18) Bod, these writings I gave were writen long ago (100-200AD or something) by SAINTS.
Many of the “SAINTS” of old are the ones quoted in support of the illogical theory that Jesus is the God he is the Son of.I read your quotes, and found some of them interesting. But to me it is just the words of men who lived along time ago. The antichrist was already at work in the church long before these men said the things you quoted, so who's to say whether or not we should believe any of these words?
peace,
mikeAsana,
Let's reason together about Jesus being the literal Son of God.
Why would you assume that the Creator of all living things couldn't have begotten a Son unto Himself without the services of a female?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 09 2011,11:24) Asana, Let's reason together about Jesus being the literal Son of God.
Why would you assume that the Creator of all living things couldn't have begotten a Son unto Himself without the services of a female?
My point is that Creating a child without a woman would not be begetting in a biblical sense it would simply be CreatingQuote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 08 2011,13:38) Quote (princess @ Dec. 08 2011,10:58) BD, At times I often wonder do people really proof read their own words, your comment to Edj about scripture being scripture is correct, you must remember though, now the koran is placed in that category also.
Perhaps I can help you understand Shimmers post a bit more, so relevance can be seen. She is quoting passages about how the anti christ will interact, come about, and what this antichrist will teach.
It seems that a comparison could be drawn from your belief system that Jesus is not the son of god as she quoted in her second paragraph, that he will arise from within your holy city ect. ect.
So yes there is reference to Islam and context in her post.
Hi Pricess Actually that would not be correct because there is no belief at all in Islam that Jesus is not the Messiah(Christ) in-fact it is a very serious belief you cannot even be a Muslim unless you believe that Jesus is The Christ.
The Jewish religion does not believe that Jesus is Christ at all not even a possibility for them but you will never hear a Muslim say that Jesus is not The Christ.
Regarding the totle “Son of God” Muslims don't simply reject Jesus as The Son of God the fact is Muslims reject any human being calling themself the son of God in anything more than a metaphoric sense and the fact is Jesus was a Spirit that proceded from God and was CREATED by God Jesus was not begat like my mom and dad begat me unless you want to devalue God and say HE was intimate with Mary and we know that is a blasphemous thought, right?
BD,I am taking it that your definition of Messiah is annointed man of God? Which is the true definition of the word. Hence that is why Mohammad is considered to be the same yes?
So the only begotten Son view is not accepted with your faith, Christ is created, so just off the top of my head, would that put Christ in higher standing then Mohammad, due to Mohammad was not created?
Gods mating with humans is nothing new under the sun in ways of mythology BD. I did not know you consider it to be blasphemous to speak of such.
And yes, Shimmer does have context to her post, especially when you do a comparison of what you believe and what she believes, most assured you see it also.
Take care BD.
BD
I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran .
In Christianity if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today,
Pierre
Hi Bod.
I think maybe the truth is, people get too caught up in who is right and who is wrong. I remember reading something in some booklets from a religious organisation called the United Chuch of God. They believe that all three of the Abrahamic Religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, will eventually all have the truth, though they are all in error right now. I remember feeling it as truth (years ago).. We are after all only human.. but I also believe Jesus is appearing to Muslims today in dreams and visions because – Christians aren't really doing their job. Some are, but I think it's only 1%.. Jesus did say that when he returns he will seperate the sheep from the goats based on what they did and did not do. Maybe the truth is to surrender to God and admit we could be in error. Theres plenty in the bible about that.
Bod, I'm sorry if I ever came across negatively over the past year or so.
Quote (princess @ Dec. 09 2011,14:08) Quote
BD,I am taking it that your definition of Messiah is annointed man of God? Which is the true definition of the word. Hence that is why Mohammad is considered to be the same yes?
The Quran does not call Muhammad a Messiah, nor does it call Muhammad a Spirit proceeding from Allah as it says about Jesus
Quote So the only begotten Son view is not accepted with your faith, Christ is created, so just off the top of my head, would that put Christ in higher standing then Mohammad, due to Mohammad was not created? Asam was created without even a mother does that make him higher than Jesus? Of course not. Why is it Christians are always thirsty to make distinctions of who is better than who this is not what Jesus taught at all.
Mark 10:
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Quote Gods mating with humans is nothing new under the sun in ways of mythology BD. I did not know you consider it to be blasphemous to speak of such. It is blasphemy to even suggest that God mated with someone elses mate even if you thought it was okay for God to mate with humans which is nonetheless also blasphemous thinking and lowering the status of God
Quote And yes, Shimmer does have context to her post, especially when you do a comparison of what you believe and what she believes, most assured you see it also. Take care BD.
There was no Islamic context to her post but she put a better context to it by speaking on Zionism which by its very nature is AntiChrist
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran .
In Christianity if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today,
Pierre
Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblicalQuote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 08 2011,19:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 09 2011,11:24) Asana, Let's reason together about Jesus being the literal Son of God.
Why would you assume that the Creator of all living things couldn't have begotten a Son unto Himself without the services of a female?
My point is that Creating a child without a woman would not be begetting in a biblical sense it would simply be Creating
But the Hebrew word “yalad”, which we translate as “beget”, basically meant “brought forth into existence”.The Greek word “ginomai”, from which the word “monogenes” springs, also refers to the same thing.
Consider that Abraham begot Ishmael before Isaac, but Isaac is the one called his “monogenes”, or “only begotten” son.
For a similar reason, Jesus is called God's ONLY “brought forth” Son, despite the fact that God has brought forth many sons unto Himself.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 10 2011,07:00) Quote
But the Hebrew word “yalad”, which we translate as “beget”, basically meant “brought forth into existence”.Yes, God brought EVRYTHING into existence, correct?
Quote The Greek word “ginomai”, from which the word “monogenes” springs, also refers to the same thing. Consider that Abraham begot Ishmael before Isaac, but Isaac is the one called his “monogenes”, or “only begotten” son.
Yes, Yes, but but that proves the point Isaac was not his only begotten as Ishmael was brought in to existence before Isaac so we can only say that Isaac was his ONLY UNIQUE son being that Isaac was brought into an existence by way of a miracle whereas Ishmael was brought into existence through a normal biological process
Quote For a similar reason, Jesus is called God's ONLY “brought forth” Son, despite the fact that God has brought forth many sons unto Himself. So yes Jesus was brought forth UNIQUELY and therefore is a Unique creation Just as Adam was a Unique Creation but no one had been born of a Virgin and therefore He is The Son of Mary and God's unique creation or God's unique manifestation of Godliness in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.Obviously Godliness consists of having qualities like God and not actually being God
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 09 2011,13:23) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 07 2011,21:18) Bod, these writings I gave were writen long ago (100-200AD or something) by SAINTS.
Many of the “SAINTS” of old are the ones quoted in support of the illogical theory that Jesus is the God he is the Son of.I read your quotes, and found some of them interesting. But to me it is just the words of men who lived along time ago. The antichrist was already at work in the church long before these men said the things you quoted, so who's to say whether or not we should believe any of these words?
peace,
mike
Hi Mike.Your right I think. The only time people will agree with the early church writings, is if it agrees with what they are trying to say. One thing I know is they disagreed on a lot. Even today we have the Eastern Orthodox disagreeing on many early writings/saints. Origen for example, and another, can't think what. They disagreed on eternal torment/atonement/the millenium/trinity/ etc.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 09 2011,16:20) Yes, Yes, but but that proves the point Isaac was not his only begotten as Ishmael was brought in to existence before Isaac so we can only say that Isaac was his ONLY UNIQUE son being that Isaac was brought into an existence by way of a miracle whereas Ishmael was brought into existence through a normal biological process.
Yes, sir. And that was the point I was trying to make. Jesus became the Son of God in a way unique to any other being. God produced for Himself a Son long before the universe and the other angels were created THROUGH that Son. He is not God Himself, but the first creation God ever produced.THEN………….he was later brought forth as a human being in ANOTHER, totally unique fashion, as you have pointed out.
Are we in agreement?
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 09 2011,18:41) Hi Mike. Your right I think. The only time people will agree with the early church writings, is if it agrees with what they are trying to say. One thing I know is they disagreed on a lot.
Yes. After the original Apostles passed on, it seems it was a free-for-all, and anyone could come up with their own “Holy Spirited” claims about spiritual things.Do YOU actually truly believe the things your sources said? If so, how do you reconcile them against scripture, when they are teaching about things not covered in scripture?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 10 2011,13:58) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 09 2011,18:41) Hi Mike. Your right I think. The only time people will agree with the early church writings, is if it agrees with what they are trying to say. One thing I know is they disagreed on a lot.
Yes. After the original Apostles passed on, it seems it was a free-for-all, and anyone could come up with their own “Holy Spirited” claims about spiritual things.Do YOU actually truly believe the things your sources said? If so, how do you reconcile them against scripture, when they are teaching about things not covered in scripture?
I guess it could ammount to nothing more than opinion then.Ok I give up on those.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 10 2011,06:29) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2011,19:46) BD I always wander with all those different Muslim ways and variations because of his vague and clear views, why is not possible to all Muslims to make their own personal opinion of their religion,but I guess this would also mean that if they do not like it they would go to an other group,and this is prevented by the only clear written commandment in the Koran .
In Christianity if you leave the churche it is because you leave God,and this was foretold ,no one will really kill you for it ,well not today,
Pierre
Muslims are converted to Christians all the time without being killed or threatened. Usually people who threat or kill because of conversions including Christians is cultural not biblical
It isn't in the Quran, but it is in the hadiths.Wikipedia:
The two most popular Hadiths usually cited by orthodox Islamic clerics to support the death penalty for apostates are:
“Allah's Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17
“Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him” Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57
Shia hadithSome Shia Hadiths also sanction the death penalty for apostasy. For example, one of the shia Imams has been asked about a Muslim who has converted to Christianity, he answered “he should be killed not called to repent”, and when asked about a Christian converting to Islam then converting back to Christianity, he answered “he should be given the chance to repent, otherwise killed” (Al-Kafi 7:257 | 10), (Men la Yahthuruh Al-Faqeeh (Whom an Islamic Cleric is not attending) 3:91 | 341), and (Tahtheeb Al-Ahkam (Rectification of the Rules) 10:140 | 554).[35]
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 10 2011,11:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 09 2011,16:20) Yes, Yes, but but that proves the point Isaac was not his only begotten as Ishmael was brought in to existence before Isaac so we can only say that Isaac was his ONLY UNIQUE son being that Isaac was brought into an existence by way of a miracle whereas Ishmael was brought into existence through a normal biological process.
Yes, sir. And that was the point I was trying to make. Jesus became the Son of God in a way unique to any other being. God produced for Himself a Son long before the universe and the other angels were created THROUGH that Son. He is not God Himself, but the first creation God ever produced.THEN………….he was later brought forth as a human being in ANOTHER, totally unique fashion, as you have pointed out.
Are we in agreement?
Without knowing every detail(God knows best) But I do believe we are in complete agreement perhaps only lacking in semanticsAgreement is good, especially when those agreeing are in agreement about what the scriptures actually teach.
So, where do you as a Muslim fall away from my beliefs? If you believe in only one God, Jehovah, and His “uniquely brought forth” Son, who had glory alongside his God before all things were created through him, then where is our disagreement?
(I truly don't know where the Muslim faith differs from mine.)
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