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'Hey!, can't you take all this religious trash talk back up into the fantasy conspiracist's section of the website?', he retorted.
'There's nothing here that belongs in a skeptics section!!'
Stuart
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,12:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2011,21:32) What I am saying is that all things were created by God throuh His word I don't have any evidence that Jesus was alive before the word came flesh, if you can show me some that would be great.
How about John 17:5?And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I won't dispute that it is possible that he could have existed in heaven as he was sent down I wouldn't have any problem or difficulty with that in the right context even the Quran saysO People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2011,08:45) 1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.Asana, if Christ never actually died, then what hope is there for those of us who do actually die? If Jesus wasn't really raised from the DEAD, then neither will we be.
(Good comments about Jonah! I am in Jeremiah right now, but when I get to Jonah, I will read it a little differently thanks to your insight and comparisons.
)Were you going to address John 17:5 that I brought up?
Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after he had been dead even longer than Jesus was assumed to be so Jesus would not have been the first to rise from the dead. In-fact2 Kings 13:21
And as a man was being buried, behold, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha, and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.
The Quran says this:
Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).
( سورة الحج , Al-Hajj, Chapter #22, Verse #5)Surah 75 THE RISING OF THE DEAD
1 I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
2 And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit: (Eschew Evil).
3 Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
4 Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
5 But man wishes to do wrong (even) in the time in front of him.
6 He questions: “When is the Day of Resurrection?”
7 At length, when the sight is dazed,
8 And the moon is buried in darkness.
9 And the sun and moon are joined together,-
10 That Day will Man say: “Where is the refuge?”
11 By no means! No place of safety!
12 Before thy Lord (alone), that Day will be the place of rest.
13 That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back.
14 Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
15 Even though he were to put up his excuses.
16 Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
17 It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
18 But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
19 Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):
20 Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
21 And leave alone the Hereafter.
22 Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);-
23 Looking towards their Lord;
24 And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,
25 In the thought that some back-breaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;
26 Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit),
27 And there will be a cry, “Who is a magician (to restore him)?”
28 And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting;
29 And one leg will be joined with another:
30 That Day the Drive will be (all) to thy Lord!
31 So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!-
32 But on the contrary, he rejected Truth and turned away!
33 Then did he stalk to his family in full conceit!
34 Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
35 Again, Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
36 Does man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)?
37 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
38 Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did ((Allah)) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
39 And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
40 Has not He, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 02 2011,10:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,12:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2011,21:32) What I am saying is that all things were created by God throuh His word I don't have any evidence that Jesus was alive before the word came flesh, if you can show me some that would be great.
How about John 17:5?And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I won't dispute that it is possible that he could have existed in heaven as he was sent down I wouldn't have any problem or difficulty with that in the right context even the Quran saysO People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Jesus also says he came down from heaven and that many would see him ascend to where he was before. (John 6)I have always understood that even as the Word of God in heaven, Jesus was the same being/person – only without the flesh.
In other words, I truly believe that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God long before he was born of Mary. And that is why God, who so loved the world, could SEND His only begotten Son into it.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 02 2011,10:42) Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after he had been dead even longer than Jesus was assumed to be so Jesus would not have been the first to rise from the dead.
That's a whole different subject – which we can discuss if you'd like. I also wonder how Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” when Jesus himself says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still living. I wonder how he could be the “first” when Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus resurrected people before Jesus was resurrected.Most think it refers to Jesus being the first to be raised to EVERLASTING life – but I'm not sure. I haven't really delved into it so far.
Asana, who is the WE in the stuff you posted? Ie: “WE created you out of dust”.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 02 2011,04:47) 'Hey!, can't you take all this religious trash talk back up into the fantasy conspiracist's section of the website?', he retorted.
'There's nothing here that belongs in a skeptics section!!'
Stuart
It's funny to me that you think t8 set up a section of his site just for you, Stu.In reality, the whole site belongs to the Christians among us that want to discuss God and scripture. Just be thankful that you have your own little corner from which to peddle your wares.
Just to clarify, WE can come into YOUR corner if we want to, because WE have full run of the entire house. YOU, on the other hand, are not welcome anywhere in the house EXCEPT FOR your own little corner.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,08:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 02 2011,10:42) Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after he had been dead even longer than Jesus was assumed to be so Jesus would not have been the first to rise from the dead.
That's a whole different subject – which we can discuss if you'd like. I also wonder how Jesus is the “firstborn from the dead” when Jesus himself says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still living. I wonder how he could be the “first” when Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus resurrected people before Jesus was resurrected.Most think it refers to Jesus being the first to be raised to EVERLASTING life – but I'm not sure. I haven't really delved into it so far.
Asana, who is the WE in the stuff you posted? Ie: “WE created you out of dust”.
Genesis 1:2626Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Genesis 3:22
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us
This is one of the reasons why Islam refers itself as theoriginal default religion as in the beginning God referred to HIMSELF as ELOHIM
Webster’s Dictionary gives the definition and etymology of Allah as follows. Allah is the Muslim name for “the God.” Allah is derived from two words “al,” which means “the” and “ilah,” which is related to the feminine Hebrew word for God, “eloah.”
Now the Hebrew title or name for God is 'Elohim' and it is the plural form of eloah. It is made plural by adding “im,” which is masculine. This corresponds to adding “s” to make a word plural in English. So the commonality between Allah and Elohim is “eloah” and “ilah.”
According the Huston Smith’s book The World’s Religions (p. 222), it states: “Allah is formed by joining the definite article al meaning ‘the’ with Ilah (God). Literally, Allah means ‘The God.’ … When the masculine plural ending im is dropped from the Hebrew word for God, Elohim, the two words sound much alike.” Eloah (Hebrew feminine) is similar to Ilah (God). Both Elohim and Allah are titles and not names.
It just was revealed to me I believe why God says to Moses your Forefathers knew me as the Almighty or Elohim but then God takes possession or ownership of the people setting them apart by revealing a more personal aspect therefore saying Jehovah or Yahweh which is to say the one that Causes to be.
Remember in the beginning there was no mention of “gods” until after they left the garden so therefore for God to tell Moses to call HIM Jehovah was to seperate the real God from the idols.
When Allah is used it has no plural form there are no “Allahs” like how we say “gods” Therefore to me GOD Being ALMIGHTY has THE ONLY RIGHT to be called God so the Quran makes it clear that there is ONLY “THE GOD” this is the process that Abraham went through
74 Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar: “Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error.”
75 So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.
76 When the night covered him over, He saw a star: He said: “This is my Lord.” But when it set, He said: “I love not those that set.”
77 When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord.” But when the moon set, He said: “unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.”
78 When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: “This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all).” But when the sun set, he said: “O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
79 “For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.”The Holy Quran is the only revealed scripture whose main subject is the unity of the Divine Being, which has remained unaltered in its original text, and it lays claim to protection by the Divine hand.
Hi BD,
The words of Muhammad were not written down until years
after his death(by one of his wives killing him).
He was illiterate you know.B'shem
YHVHI assume that YOU are “all that you are”. Should we start calling you “they” and “them”? Do you call yourself “we”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,13:39) I assume that YOU are “all that you are”. Should we start calling you “they” and “them”? Do you call yourself “we”?
What I am saying is that there is a tool in language called “the Royal we” but consider also that in the truest sense God cannot be a “HE” that is also just a tool because God does not have a gender that is why it says HE made male and female in OUR IMAGE. If you think Jesus was there with HIM where is the female? But if “Our” has to do with God's attributes it would explain God speaking in that way.Asana,
The plural form of any Hebrew word refers to one of two things:
1. One majestic thing.
2. More than one thing.The singular gods Molech, Dagon, and Ashteroth were all called “elohim” in scripture.
The plural word “adonim” was used of the singular being of Pharaoh.
The plural word for “tree” could either mean one great tree, or many trees. Same with “river”, “mountain”, or anything else.
In fact, the definition for the Hebrew word for “plural” is “term of grandiosities”.
Jehovah is not only called “elohim”, but also “el” and “eloah” in scripture. Jehovah is not a “unity”, but a singular Being.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 02 2011,09:06) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 01 2011,21:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 01 2011,15:30)
I do not believe it to be the case that he was crucified or killed and it is in my case reasonable to believe that since I totally believe the Quran to be the revealed word of God. The bases for me to reasonably believe this must be rooted in biblical revelation itself:Revelation 10
1And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
To me it is reasonable to assume the Quran is that little book since it is not a Bible “collection of books” but a little book of 114 chapters and Muhammad is called the seal of the Prophets
A revelation does not always focus on the Future it often times refers to revealing the past, 90% of Moses revelation is focused on the past even thousands of years before his birth in-fact he starts with “In the beginning” the ultimate revelation.
Jesus said THE ONLY sign he was going to give that wicked generation was the sign of Jonah:
Jonah appeared to have drowned:
Jonah 1:14-18
King James Version (KJV)
14Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
15So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
16Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.
17Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
So Jonah was ALIVE day and night for 3 days and 3 nights but to those fishermen he would have appeared to have perished.
compare:
Jonah 2
1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Matthew 26:38-40
King James Version (KJV)
38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Bod, with Jonah and Jesus, if you believe in the afterlife, then it can't be hard to understand that Jesus went down to Shoel to preach to the spirits in “prison”.1Peter 3:18-Youngs Literal:
Christ once for sin did suffer — righteous for unrighteous — that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah — an ark being preparing — in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us — baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven — messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him.
Have you read the book of Hebrews? What do you think of that? Paul didn't write Hebrews.
I don't doubt anything “written” in the bible because if it was written according to that persons understanding at the time it doesn't really have to be accurate if you notice in the NT it really never says that “God said, “go and say this”” itgenerally says I am giving my account or my best recollection.
So when the Quran says it appeared that Jesus was killed by Crucifixion, to me it reinforces the reality of Jesus being condemned to Crucifixion and all that was written about it.
The bible went around the world as Jesus said it would.“And this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for the testimony of all the nations and then the end will come”.
What other book has done that?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,14:26) Asana, The plural form of any Hebrew word refers to one of two things:
1. One majestic thing.
2. More than one thing.The singular gods Molech, Dagon, and Ashteroth were all called “elohim” in scripture.
The plural word “adonim” was used of the singular being of Pharaoh.
The plural word for “tree” could either mean one great tree, or many trees. Same with “river”, “mountain”, or anything else.
In fact, the definition for the Hebrew word for “plural” is “term of grandiosities”.
Jehovah is not only called “elohim”, but also “el” and “eloah” in scripture. Jehovah is not a “unity”, but a singular Being.
u·ni·ty (yn-t)
n. pl. u·ni·ties
1. The state or quality of being one; singleness.Noun 1. unity – an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting;
Once again I know we are not in disagreement just perhaps clarifying what sounded awkward.
So in the case of “The God” i.e. Jehovah HE is The Only One capable of being a Unity of Being because all else relies on HIM but HE doesn't rely on or lack anything that is why these “other”gods mentioned fail to be actual gods because the very grasp of what it means to be TRULY God in Title is to have the Highes rank.
Jehovah i.e. “The ONE that Causes to Be” is THE ONLY ONE worthy of Worship because HE is TRULY “THE GOD” [translated in Arabic as ALLAH]
So when speaking to Moses, Moses is asking God a question of who shall I say has sent me? as in “which god are you”?
God completely clarifies this matter by saying your ForeFathers knew me as “The God” or The Almighty but more than My Rank “I AM, the one that causes to be” and this is what you shall know me as. In doing this God demonstrates and explains that HIS NATURE (Jehovah)(Yahwey) is the Identity or Name of HIS RANK.
Just like when God says that Jealous/Zealous is His Name
u·ni·ty /ˈyunɪti/ Show Spelled[yoo-ni-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1. the state of being one; oneness.
2. a whole or totality as combining all its parts into one.
3. the state or fact of being united or combined into one, as of the parts of a whole; unification.You'll notice from definitions 2 and 3 that a “unity” can only apply to MORE THAN ONE part that are unified together.
How many parts make up Jehovah so that “HE” is a unity?
Asana, God Almighty is not a “WE”. And any scripture that says “Let US” or “Whom shall WE send” is obviously a case of God speaking to other(s) who are NOT the God who is speaking to them.
Just like if I said, “WE went to the park”, you would never in a million years assume I was speaking of the various unified parts of me going to the park as one unified being.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2011,03:11) u·ni·ty /ˈyunɪti/ Show Spelled[yoo-ni-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1. the state of being one; oneness.
2. a whole or totality as combining all its parts into one.
3. the state or fact of being united or combined into one, as of the parts of a whole; unification.You'll notice from definitions 2 and 3 that a “unity” can only apply to MORE THAN ONE part that are unified together.
How many parts make up Jehovah so that “HE” is a unity?
Asana, God Almighty is not a “WE”. And any scripture that says “Let US” or “Whom shall WE send” is obviously a case of God speaking to other(s) who are NOT the God who is speaking to them.
Just like if I said, “WE went to the park”, you would never in a million years assume I was speaking of the various unified parts of me going to the park as one unified being.
Why would you concern yourself with definition 2 and 3 and not simplify it to definition 1 which does not apply to more than 1.It doesn't matter if God is addressing anyone or not it still would not identify who He is addressing but whomever He is addressing they are also unified in purpose with Him, right?
Absolutely! One in purpose with him. That means there are MORE THAN ONE, all of whom are one in purpose with each other.
So when God says “Let us create”, our singular God is speaking to other(s) who are “unified” in purpose WITH Him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 04 2011,06:51) Absolutely! One in purpose with him. That means there are MORE THAN ONE, all of whom are one in purpose with each other. So when God says “Let us create”, our singular God is speaking to other(s) who are “unified” in purpose WITH Him.
That's fine but they are not HIM and do not specify who “us” is and to me that's okay because ALL PRAISE is DUE to GOD and not anyone HE is instructing , commanding or creating with.
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