Reason and Religion

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,10:55)

Sounds like the Catholic doctrine of everlasting suffering x 10.

Both these likely found that fear is a useful weapon to get people to submit to them.

Are you saying there is no punishment of the wicked T8?

November 30, 2011 at 2:45 am#266377

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2011,20:50)

Jesus came from the breath of God(above) and the Word became Flesh

I'm getting mixed signals from you. Do you believe that Jesus existed and had glory alongside his God long before he became flesh?

Do you believe that all things in heaven and on earth were created through him?

November 30, 2011 at 3:12 am#266381

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,12:53)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,08:29)

Ha ha that is so funny. You all believe in a literal lake of fire.

Actually it is the same fire that will eventually destroy the heavens and Earth.

Fire is one of God's tools used in destruction.

All that is wicked will eventually be destroyed.
The old order is passing.

I know, I believe that too, it's just the way Mike and Bod were saying it.

Example:

Stuart:

When you write that, do you actually have a picture in your head of human beings immersed in something that could be literally described as a lake of fire?

Or is it a more metaphorical mental picture than a literal one?

Stuart

Mike:

I mentally picture it as something like an active volcano. The mentions of sulfer and brimstone cause me to picture it this way.

But at this point, it is not “human beings” who are cast off into everlasting destruction. It is the souls of those who used to be human beings that are being judged at this time.

Stuart:

I see, so what is your mental picture of a human soul, and how does fire affect souls?

Stuart

Mike:

I'm undecided. Why? Does my percieved image of the lake of fire or souls have any bearing on what I said?

Bod:

You are totally correct here it doesn't matter what the perceived image of hell is what matters is the warning is heeded and repentence follows.

There are lots of things in this life we will never experience simply because we heed warnings that are sometimes too graphic, violent…etc to correctly comprehend but nevertheless do the work of pursuaing us not to follow certain paths.

November 30, 2011 at 3:15 am#266382

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,14:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2011,20:50)

Jesus came from the breath of God(above) and the Word became Flesh

I'm getting mixed signals from you. Do you believe that Jesus existed and had glory alongside his God long before he became flesh?

Do you believe that all things in heaven and on earth were created through him?

Mike, In Islam, they say the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is truth.

However, in the Quran, Jesus is not the Son of God.

Jesus will come back soon (He never died) and live 30 years then die – is this correct Bod?

November 30, 2011 at 4:32 am#266385

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,12:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2011,20:50)

Jesus came from the breath of God(above) and the Word became Flesh

I'm getting mixed signals from you. Do you believe that Jesus existed and had glory alongside his God long before he became flesh?

Do you believe that all things in heaven and on earth were created through him?

What I am saying is that all things were created by God throuh His word I don't have any evidence that Jesus was alive before the word came flesh, if you can show me some that would be great.

To me it wouldn't mean that much though because we are to Worship God and not His word. God is One and there is NO ONE BESIDES HIM.

Psalm 86:10
For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

So we know that if the Word was God that Jesus can only be the word when the word became flesh because there are not 2 gods so God sent out His Word and it became Flesh

November 30, 2011 at 4:45 am#266386

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 30 2011,13:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,14:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2011,20:50)

Jesus came from the breath of God(above) and the Word became Flesh

I'm getting mixed signals from you. Do you believe that Jesus existed and had glory alongside his God long before he became flesh?

Do you believe that all things in heaven and on earth were created through him?

Mike, In Islam, they say the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is truth.

However, in the Quran, Jesus is not the Son of God.

Jesus will come back soon (He never died) and live 30 years then die – is this correct Bod?

The Quran just says he will return and that it appeared that he was crucified but He was not.

But I will say if that Jesus is to be first in all things then him living the longest of all humans would fit into that Methusalh and Adam who sinned lived almost 1,000 years so if Jesus returned slightly over 2,000 years with Hair as white as wool, a voice like running rivers and feet like refined brass I would not be surprised because it would show that he has aged.

Have you ever asked yourself why you think Jesus would be the same age as when “he was on the cross”?

Jesus was taken up to heaven ALIVE according to the Bible Jesus was extremely clear in telling them HE was not a spirit, that he had flesh and bones and was hungry and the angels said this same Jesus will return as you seen him leave.

Remember Jonah and the Whale at what point did Jonah die? Four 3 days and 3 nights he was in the whale ALIVE but to the boat men it appeared that Jonah was dead that he had been killed by the raging waters but God put him in a special place in that darkest hour.

Jesus did not come out of the loins of God, God did not do an intimate act with Mary, God does not release sperm, God does not need a mate to create with(Notice Adam was created with no help at all) God and I will repeat God does not have children in any biological sense because all who were created to bear children were made to MULTIPLY and GOD DOES NOT MULTIPLY HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE.

November 30, 2011 at 9:50 am#266402

Participant

Quote

The Quran just says he will return and that it appeared that he was crucified but He was not.

Thats what the Quran says. but its not what Jesus said:

“I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death” – Rev 1:18

Jesus never said he would come back and die, he said he is alive forever more.

Quote

I agree.

November 30, 2011 at 10:02 am#266403

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 30 2011,15:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,14:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2011,20:50)

Jesus came from the breath of God(above) and the Word became Flesh

I'm getting mixed signals from you. Do you believe that Jesus existed and had glory alongside his God long before he became flesh?

Do you believe that all things in heaven and on earth were created through him?

Mike, In Islam, they say the Bible is corrupted and the Quran is truth.

However, in the Quran, Jesus is not the Son of God.

Jesus will come back soon (He never died) and live 30 years then die – is this correct Bod?

Quran:

Sura 4:171:
People of the Book (Christians), do not transgress the bounds of your religion. Speak nothing but the truth about God. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God's apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary: a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His apostles and do not say: 'Three.' Forbear, and it shall be better for you. God is but one God. God forbid that He should have a son! His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. God is the all-sufficient protector. The Messiah does not disdain to be a servant of God, nor do the angels who are nearest to Him. Those who through arrogance disdain His service shall all be brought before Him.

Sura 10:70:
They say: 'God has begotten a son.' God forbid! Self-sufficient is He. His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. Surely for this you have no sanction. Would you say of God what you know not?

Sura 7:111:
Pray neither with too loud a voice nor in silence, but, between these extremes, seek a middle course. Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom; who needs none to defend Him from humiliation.' Proclaim His greatness.

Sura 19:85:
Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!

Sura 19:30:
Such was Jesus, the son of Mary. That is the whole truth, which they still doubt. God forbid that He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need only say: 'Be,' and it is.

November 30, 2011 at 10:25 am#266405

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,12:55)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 29 2011,09:03)

Bod and Mike, so do you believe then in this:

Islamic Hell and Unbelievers

Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

Koran 18:28-30
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.

Koran 40:67-40:73
Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.

Koran 43:74
The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves.

Koran 55:41-52
That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?

Koran 76:1-5
For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire…

Koran 73:12
We have in store for the unbelievers heavy fetters and a blazing fire, choking food and harrowing torment: on the day when the earth shall quiver with all its mountains, and the mountains crumble into heaps of shifting sand.

Koran 77:20-77:50
Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels…Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men…”

Koran 44:40-49
..The fruit of the Zaqqum tree shall be the unbelievers's fruit. Like dregs of oil, like scalding water, it shall simmer in his belly. A voice will cry: 'Seize him and drag him into the depths of Hell. Then pour out scalding water over his head, saying: “Taste this, illustrious and honourable man! This is the punishment which you have doubted.”

Koran 52:1-52:15
..On that day they shall be sternly thrown into the fire of Hell, and a voice will say to them: 'This is the Fire which you denied…Burn in its flames. It is the same whether or not you show forbearance. You shall be rewarded according to your deeds.'

Koran 31-37
And burn ye him in the blazing fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits. This was he that would not believe in allah Most high amd would not encourage the feeding of the indignant. So no friend hath he here this day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds.

Koran 56:52-56
Ye shall surely taste of the tree Zaqqum. Then will ye fill your insides therwith, and drink boiling water on top of it. Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst. Such will be their entertainment on the day of Requital!

Koran 69:30-37
We shall say: 'Lay hold of him and bind him. Burn him in the fie of Hell, then fasten him with a chain seventy cubits long. For he did not believe Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Today he shall be friendless here; filth shall be his food, the filth which sinners eat…

Koran 2:39
Those who reject faith shall be the companions of the Fire.

Koran 2:89-90
The curse of Allah is on the unbelievers… humiliating is the punishment.

Koran 70:15-16
The fire of Hell will pluck out his being right to the skull..

Koran 5:10
As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell.

Sounds like the Catholic doctrine of everlasting suffering x 10.

Both these likely found that fear is a useful weapon to get people to submit to them.

Just that.

If i got the story right, Mohammad was a man who met travellers, in speaking to them he learnt about christianity and judaism, so, it seems he mixed the two, and added on bits and took away bits. all in a cave, where he heard a voice whisper to him, who he says was the angel Gabriel.

The truths in islam is, the elimination of idol worship, etc, and also they try to lead a sinless life.
However the error (or lie) is not believing Jesus is who he said he was, and placing anothers words higher than Jesus'.

Many have never heard the truths of Jesus, so just dont know.

However some do, such as Bod who studied the bible before accepting islam.

However Bod was put off christianity due to experience, but needs to go back to what he once believed.

In Islamic countries, they are having dreams and visons of Jesus, where Jesus appears to them, and shows them the truth of who he is.

This is what it said in the bible would happen, before the day of the Lord.

November 30, 2011 at 11:39 am#266408

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,13:01)

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 29 2011,09:57)

Example, the incense of the saints which rises up forever is the prayers of the saints.
Just like the smoke of torment RISES UP in the same way, which is the torment of the sinners – on earth.

See that?

Yeah I can see that.

Thanks, I'm glad somebody did=)

November 30, 2011 at 7:31 pm#266429

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 30 2011,20:25)

However some do, such as Bod who studied the bible before accepting islam.

However Bod was put off christianity due to experience, but needs to go back to what he once believed.

I wasn't put off Christianity at all I simply was guided to the revelation that makes things clear that Christians often can't agree on themselves the Quran eliminates a lot of speculation so you can face the ULTIMATE point which is to SUBMIT yourself to GOD ALMIGHTY and GOD ALONE, Do not make Prophets or Christ your God because ULTIMATELY Salvation comes from GOD ALONE

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

December 1, 2011 at 2:46 am#266490

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2011,21:32)

What I am saying is that all things were created by God throuh His word I don't have any evidence that Jesus was alive before the word came flesh, if you can show me some that would be great.

How about John 17:5?

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

December 1, 2011 at 2:47 am#266491

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 30 2011,12:31)

SUBMIT yourself to GOD ALMIGHTY and GOD ALONE, Do not make Prophets or Christ your God because ULTIMATELY Salvation comes from GOD ALONE

I can't comment on the Quran, because I've not read it. But I agree with the part I quoted whole-heartedly.

December 1, 2011 at 2:55 am#266493

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2011,21:45)

he Quran just says he will return and that it appeared that he was crucified but He was not.

But I will say if that Jesus is to be first in all things then him living the longest of all humans would fit into that

Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

Jesus really died, Asana.

December 1, 2011 at 3:30 am#266496

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,12:55)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 29 2011,21:45)

he Quran just says he will return and that it appeared that he was crucified but He was not.

But I will say if that Jesus is to be first in all things then him living the longest of all humans would fit into that

Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

Jesus really died, Asana.

I do not believe it to be the case that he was crucified or killed and it is in my case reasonable to believe that since I totally believe the Quran to be the revealed word of God. The bases for me to reasonably believe this must be rooted in biblical revelation itself:

Revelation 10

1And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

To me it is reasonable to assume the Quran is that little book since it is not a Bible “collection of books” but a little book of 114 chapters and Muhammad is called the seal of the Prophets

A revelation does not always focus on the Future it often times refers to revealing the past, 90% of Moses revelation is focused on the past even thousands of years before his birth in-fact he starts with “In the beginning” the ultimate revelation.

Jesus said THE ONLY sign he was going to give that wicked generation was the sign of Jonah:

Jonah appeared to have drowned:

Jonah 1:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.

15So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.

16Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.

17Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

So Jonah was ALIVE day and night for 3 days and 3 nights but to those fishermen he would have appeared to have perished.

compare:

Jonah 2

1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Matthew 26:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

December 1, 2011 at 4:13 am#266498

thehappyman

Participant

Hi All: I believe that William and Pierre has spoken very well ; God , the Father; and His Holy Spirit ; the Son of God , Jesus Christ. As it has been recorded that people have made gods by their own beliefs ; yet their is only one God . Creator . the I AM . YHWH.

December 1, 2011 at 11:27 am#266524