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Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,10:52) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,08:29) Ha ha that is so funny. You all believe in a literal lake of fire.
Do you believe in a literal heaven? If so, why do you choose to believe in one as described and not the other?
Bod,I believe the bible not the quran.
Firstly, God is described as a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29, Exodus 15:7, Exodus 24:17, Deut 4:24, Deut 9:3, Psalm 97:3, 2nd Thes 1:7, Hebrews 10:27, 2nd Peter 3:7)
What the literal lake of fire is I don't know. Just the way Mike and you were describing it made me laugh.
The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. (Romans 6:32).
The outer darkness, that Jesus speaks about, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, is separation from God, either in this life or the next.
Jesus himself said, that when he comes in judgement, those on his left will be thrown into the fire.
Revelation continues this, to say the lake of fire is the second death.
To further confirm this, Jesus said “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so whoever believes in him, shall not PERISH but shall have eternal life.
You either believe Jesus or the quran, Bod.
Jesus said his words are truth.
Hebrews 10:27 – But only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will CONSUME the enemies of God.
2 Peter 3:7 – By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION of ungodly men.
Rev 20:12 – And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,07:32) I'm undecided. Why? Does my percieved image of the lake of fire or souls have any bearing on what I said?
It doesn't really, I'm just curious about it as an aside.You seem to be making promises of things that you cannot describe to others.
Stuart
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,17:50) Quote Bod, I believe the bible not the quran.
Firstly, God is described as a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29, Exodus 15:7, Exodus 24:17, Deut 4:24, Deut 9:3, Psalm 97:3, 2nd Thes 1:7, Hebrews 10:27, 2nd Peter 3:7)
What the literal lake of fire is I don't know. Just the way Mike and you were describing it made me laugh.
If you don't know how is it reasonable to suggest that we must be wrong when the text of the bible is where we are getting the information, did the author know?
Quote The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. (Romans 6:32). Romans
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Was he being literal here? He is saying that someone who sins is as if they are dead but obviously they are alive at the time and Jesus said:
Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.Once again why is Jesus calling living people dead?
Quote The outer darkness, that Jesus speaks about, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, is separation from God, either in this life or the next. Yes, so how could someone weep and gnash there teeth if they have been completely anihilated how would they be able to experience any punishment at all?
Quote Jesus himself said, that when he comes in judgement, those on his left will be thrown into the fire. Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Do you believe what Jesus is saying here that there is a place prepared for the devil and his angels? and if you do is it a literal everlasting fire or not? You have already said you believe Jesus and you believe the bible and Jesus said it would be better for you to cut off your hand or gouge your eyes out then to go to hell but if you just died without repentance and that was it with no punishment then it would not be better to cut off your hand or gouge your eyes out or inflict any strict discipline at all after all death would simply mean death what would be the point of even the resurrection of those who will only fall dead again?
Quote Revelation continues this, to say the lake of fire is the second death. To further confirm this, Jesus said “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so whoever believes in him, shall not PERISH but shall have eternal life.
If death was the end there could not be a SECOND death so that simply would mean that a second death means your soul is ruined and hell will be your abode
Quote You either believe Jesus or the quran, Bod. Jesus said his words are truth.
Jesus said hell is a place of torment and you do not believe him but the Quran agrees with Jesus
Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.How can someone be tormented day and night unless they are feeling it and the false prophet is definitely a human being here so we can't say these are spirits
Revelation- 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice that death and hell is thrown into the lake of fire before those who weren't found in the book of life therefore death or the capabiliity to die precedes being thrown into the lake in other words eternal death is a state of Non-death
Do you understand people are judged first then death and hell is thrown into the fire and then those who are condemned will go to the deathless lake of fire
Quote Hebrews 10:27 – But only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will CONSUME the enemies of God.
2 Peter 3:7 – By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION of ungodly men.
Yes destruction in a place where even death has been done away with an endless destruction or as Jesus puts it:
Mark 9
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Do you really believe Jesus?
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2011,00:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,07:32) I'm undecided. Why? Does my percieved image of the lake of fire or souls have any bearing on what I said?
It doesn't really, I'm just curious about it as an aside.You seem to be making promises of things that you cannot describe to others.
Stuart
The only promise I make is that God's will will be done on heaven and on earth. I promise what the scriptures tell me, nothing more. And the scriptures tell me that those on the left of Jesus will go off into everlasting life, while those on the right will go off into everlasting destruction.That “destruction” is often times described as being thrown into the lake of fire.
Do I have to be able to describe what this lake looks like in order to believe the scriptural words?
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,00:50)
I believe the bible not the quran.
Shimmer, I've never read the quran. What I spoke of came straight from the Bible.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,00:50)
What the literal lake of fire is I don't know. Just the way Mike and you were describing it made me laugh.
Then you are not laughing at me or BD, but at the writers of scripture.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,00:50)
The outer darkness, that Jesus speaks about, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, is separation from God, either in this life or the next.
I read “thrown into the lake of fire for an indefinite time of punishment”. Where do you read “separation from God”?Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,00:06)
Yes, of course Jesus is The Word in John 1……..
Good, we agree on that.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,00:06)
Even when we talk about the light Jesus also says that all of his followers are the light:
Actually, Jesus said he was the light of the world. Then later, he told his disciples that he would be leaving the earth, and they would now be the light in his place. But they were never the light of the world through whom the world was created in the first place. Only Jesus was that one.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,00:06)
Now here's the thing, if you say that Jesus is the word in John 1:1 and John 1:2……………
Wait a minute. Didn't you just agree with me on that? Why the “if you say” all of a sudden?Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,00:06)
………then he could not have been begotten unless you are saying he was begat when he became flesh………
Why not? Why couldn't have God begotten a Son unto Himself long before He created all other things through that Son?Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,00:06)
………in which case we agree and if not my argument at the least is not unreasonable that Jesus was uniquely created by Jehovah.
I don't deny that Jesus was uniquely created by Jehovah. In fact, that is the absolute truth of the scriptures.But how does being begotten exclude Jesus from being a creation? I was begotten and am still a creation of God.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,00:06)
When you assert the word begat in what way could Jesus be begat by God who did God become intimate with to need to beget Christ was he begat by God and Mary?
Why would you assume God cannot beget a Son unto Himself without the help of some woman? Do worms need women to beget offspring?Good talk, BD. You are quite a refreshing change from the other half of this site, where most people already know it all, and won't deviate from their beliefs no matter what the scriptures actually say about it.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,03:30) Quote I don't deny that Jesus was uniquely created by Jehovah. In fact, that is the absolute truth of the scriptures. But how does being begotten exclude Jesus from being a creation? I was begotten and am still a creation of God.
It is my understanding that begetting is a human act i.e. procreation the bible generally uses this term as the sexual method of parenting. However other definitions excluding that could be acceptable I guess the point is we both agree that God does not BREED, right?
If the term is being used not to mean Adj. 1. begotten – (of offspring) generated by procreation; “naturally begotten child”
biological – of parents and children; related by blood; “biological child”but used to mean 2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: as in Violence begets more violence.
There have been groups in the past that claim Jesus was procreated as the byproduct of intimicay between Mary and God and I'm sure that this cannot be what you are asserting or believe to me it is much more clear to simply say that God created Jesus but he also created you although you were actually begat by your parents through procreation(sex) Jesus was not begat that way nor does God beget that way.
Quote Why would you assume God cannot beget a Son unto Himself without the help of some woman? Do worms need women to beget offspring? Worms do mate but what I am saying is God does not need a mate to create
Quote Good talk, BD. You are quite a refreshing change from the other half of this site, where most people already know it all, and won't deviate from their beliefs no matter what the scriptures actually say about it. I also see you that same way. The reason I firmly believe in the Quran is because it makes simple and clear things that can be complicated. When we read in the bible that this person begat that person and so on and on it does not seem appropriate or clear that God is not doing something of a physical nature with His creation(mary) when the context of the usage of that word is almost exclusively sexual.
so when we see Adam as the son of God it is misleading as well and because of this misleading you wind up with stuff like this:
The Adam–God doctrine (or Adam–God theory) was the most prominent of several theological ideas taught within mid-19th century Mormonism, and is part of the modern theology of Mormon fundamentalism. Introduced by Brigham Young in the 1850s, the doctrine teaches that Adam is both the common ancestor and the father of spirits for all people who are born on this earth. According to the doctrine, Adam was once a mortal man who became resurrected and exalted. From another planet, Adam brought Eve, one of his wives, with him to the earth, where they became mortal by eating the fruit of the Garden of Eden. After bearing mortal children and establishing the human race, they returned to their heavenly thrones where Adam serves as the god of this world. Later, as Young is generally understood to have taught, Adam returned to the earth to become the literal father of Jesus.
In fact mike all of Mormonism is based on the idea that God begat Adam and Jesus and hence all of God's children are gods and they back the thought up with scripture that says “ye are gods”
Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.So they believe that God is what man will be and God was what man was.
peace,
AsanaQuote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 28 2011,05:07) Quote The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. (Romans 6:32). Romans
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Was he being literal here? He is saying that someone who sins is as if they are dead but obviously they are alive at the time and Jesus said:
Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.Once again why is Jesus calling living people dead?
Yes Bod I agree the Bible has two levels to it, literal and spiritual.Let the dead bury the dead means spiritually dead.
Many don't see the two levels to it.
The book of revelations though, is writen symbolically. So why take one part literally and another symbolically? People do that.
Quote Quote Quote
The outer darkness, that Jesus speaks about, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, is separation from God, either in this life or the next.
Yes, so how could someone weep and gnash there teeth if they have been completely anihilated how would they be able to experience any punishment at all?What happens after this life we don't know. If you ask an Eastern Orthodox for example (who I follow the most), they agree that outer darkness is separation from God and drawing nearer to God is our whole purpose, in this life and the next.
Hi BD,
I agree with your post. And I believe Jesus was the first being ever created by God. I believe that all other things were then subsequently created by God through Jesus. I believe that Jesus was existing in this cushy position next to his God before he was sent on a mission to earth – the success of which depended upon him being flesh for a while.
I don't know why God chose to use the word “begotten” to describe how His Son came to exist. I suppose it was to set Jesus apart as His very own – different from any subsequent creations that came later through Jesus……..to distinguish him from Adam, the nation of Israel, and anyone else called a son of God.
But in scripture, Jesus is said to have been begotten, born, created, and brought forth. He is said to have had an origin and to have been the beginning of God's creation.
So I don't have the Trinitarian hang-up about Jesus having existed from forever – or about him being the God he is the Son of.
I do consider that since his creation, he has truly been God's only directly created Son, and that he existed as such long before he was ever sent to earth.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,10:10) Hi BD, I agree with your post. And I believe Jesus was the first being ever created by God. I believe that all other things were then subsequently created by God through Jesus. I believe that Jesus was existing in this cushy position next to his God before he was sent on a mission to earth – the success of which depended upon him being flesh for a while.
I don't know why God chose to use the word “begotten” to describe how His Son came to exist. I suppose it was to set Jesus apart as His very own – different from any subsequent creations that came later through Jesus……..to distinguish him from Adam, the nation of Israel, and anyone else called a son of God.
But in scripture, Jesus is said to have been begotten, born, created, and brought forth. He is said to have had an origin and to have been the beginning of God's creation.
So I don't have the Trinitarian hang-up about Jesus having existed from forever – or about him being the God he is the Son of.
I do consider that since his creation, he has truly been God's only directly created Son, and that he existed as such long before he was ever sent to earth.
Hi Mike,So I see your point but what does it mean to you when it says in scripture:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.Here God is clearly not talking about Jesus but the word begat is used so how is it Jesus is the only begotten. Let me make clear I love Jesus greatly and am not trying to undermine his true position and glory all I want to do is clarify
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,03:11) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 27 2011,00:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,07:32) I'm undecided. Why? Does my percieved image of the lake of fire or souls have any bearing on what I said?
It doesn't really, I'm just curious about it as an aside.You seem to be making promises of things that you cannot describe to others.
Stuart
The only promise I make is that God's will will be done on heaven and on earth. I promise what the scriptures tell me, nothing more. And the scriptures tell me that those on the left of Jesus will go off into everlasting life, while those on the right will go off into everlasting destruction.That “destruction” is often times described as being thrown into the lake of fire.
Do I have to be able to describe what this lake looks like in order to believe the scriptural words?
I think so.Stuart
Bod and Mike, so do you believe then in this:
Islamic Hell and Unbelievers
Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'Koran 18:28-30
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.Koran 40:67-40:73
Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.Koran 43:74
The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves.Koran 55:41-52
That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?Koran 76:1-5
For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire…Koran 73:12
We have in store for the unbelievers heavy fetters and a blazing fire, choking food and harrowing torment: on the day when the earth shall quiver with all its mountains, and the mountains crumble into heaps of shifting sand.Koran 77:20-77:50
Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels…Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men…”Koran 44:40-49
..The fruit of the Zaqqum tree shall be the unbelievers's fruit. Like dregs of oil, like scalding water, it shall simmer in his belly. A voice will cry: 'Seize him and drag him into the depths of Hell. Then pour out scalding water over his head, saying: “Taste this, illustrious and honourable man! This is the punishment which you have doubted.”Koran 52:1-52:15
..On that day they shall be sternly thrown into the fire of Hell, and a voice will say to them: 'This is the Fire which you denied…Burn in its flames. It is the same whether or not you show forbearance. You shall be rewarded according to your deeds.'Koran 31-37
And burn ye him in the blazing fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits. This was he that would not believe in allah Most high amd would not encourage the feeding of the indignant. So no friend hath he here this day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds.Koran 56:52-56
Ye shall surely taste of the tree Zaqqum. Then will ye fill your insides therwith, and drink boiling water on top of it. Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst. Such will be their entertainment on the day of Requital!Koran 69:30-37
We shall say: 'Lay hold of him and bind him. Burn him in the fie of Hell, then fasten him with a chain seventy cubits long. For he did not believe Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Today he shall be friendless here; filth shall be his food, the filth which sinners eat…Koran 2:39
Those who reject faith shall be the companions of the Fire.Koran 2:89-90
The curse of Allah is on the unbelievers… humiliating is the punishment.Koran 70:15-16
The fire of Hell will pluck out his being right to the skull..Koran 5:10
As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 29 2011,09:03) Bod and Mike, so do you believe then in this: Islamic Hell and Unbelievers
Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'Koran 18:28-30
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.Koran 40:67-40:73
Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.Koran 43:74
The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves.Koran 55:41-52
That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?Koran 76:1-5
For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire…Koran 73:12
We have in store for the unbelievers heavy fetters and a blazing fire, choking food and harrowing torment: on the day when the earth shall quiver with all its mountains, and the mountains crumble into heaps of shifting sand.Koran 77:20-77:50
Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels…Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men…”Koran 44:40-49
..The fruit of the Zaqqum tree shall be the unbelievers's fruit. Like dregs of oil, like scalding water, it shall simmer in his belly. A voice will cry: 'Seize him and drag him into the depths of Hell. Then pour out scalding water over his head, saying: “Taste this, illustrious and honourable man! This is the punishment which you have doubted.”Koran 52:1-52:15
..On that day they shall be sternly thrown into the fire of Hell, and a voice will say to them: 'This is the Fire which you denied…Burn in its flames. It is the same whether or not you show forbearance. You shall be rewarded according to your deeds.'Koran 31-37
And burn ye him in the blazing fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits. This was he that would not believe in allah Most high amd would not encourage the feeding of the indignant. So no friend hath he here this day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds.Koran 56:52-56
Ye shall surely taste of the tree Zaqqum. Then will ye fill your insides therwith, and drink boiling water on top of it. Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst. Such will be their entertainment on the day of Requital!Koran 69:30-37
We shall say: 'Lay hold of him and bind him. Burn him in the fie of Hell, then fasten him with a chain seventy cubits long. For he did not believe Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Today he shall be friendless here; filth shall be his food, the filth which sinners eat…Koran 2:39
Those who reject faith shall be the companions of the Fire.Koran 2:89-90
The curse of Allah is on the unbelievers… humiliating is the punishment.Koran 70:15-16
The fire of Hell will pluck out his being right to the skull..Koran 5:10
As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.If those who enter hell were simply consumed they would be at complete rest but this scripture clearly says there will be no rest day nor night
So as far as you denying the flames and torments of hell
Koran 55:41-52
That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?Koran 77:20-77:50
Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels…Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men…”Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.So you deny Hell, The Bible and The Quran the question then remains will you be able to deny the reality of hell on Judgement Day?
Bod, you seriously believe this stuff?
Rev 14:11 – Bod,
Read it properly. These people are alive on earth,
Continue on into the next chapter and you will see what I mean.
As I said, Revelations is full of symbolism.
Example, the incense of the saints which rises up forever is the prayers of the saints.
Just like the smoke of torment RISES UP in the same way, which is the torment of the sinners – on earth.See that?
And the story of Lazarus and Abraham is telling another story. Jesus spoke in parables.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,20:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,10:10) Hi BD, I agree with your post. And I believe Jesus was the first being ever created by God. I believe that all other things were then subsequently created by God through Jesus. I believe that Jesus was existing in this cushy position next to his God before he was sent on a mission to earth – the success of which depended upon him being flesh for a while.
I don't know why God chose to use the word “begotten” to describe how His Son came to exist. I suppose it was to set Jesus apart as His very own – different from any subsequent creations that came later through Jesus……..to distinguish him from Adam, the nation of Israel, and anyone else called a son of God.
But in scripture, Jesus is said to have been begotten, born, created, and brought forth. He is said to have had an origin and to have been the beginning of God's creation.
So I don't have the Trinitarian hang-up about Jesus having existed from forever – or about him being the God he is the Son of.
I do consider that since his creation, he has truly been God's only directly created Son, and that he existed as such long before he was ever sent to earth.
Hi Mike,So I see your point but what does it mean to you when it says in scripture:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.Here God is clearly not talking about Jesus but the word begat is used so how is it Jesus is the only begotten. Let me make clear I love Jesus greatly and am not trying to undermine his true position and glory all I want to do is clarify
Hi Asana,The Hebrew word “yalad” simply means “brought forth into existence”. It is most often related to natural childbirth, but is also used metaphorically. For instance, in Gen 50:23, the phrase “yalad Joseph's knees” was a Hebrew saying that meant Joseph adopted his grandchildren as his own and left them an inheritance.
Anyway, it is not so much the “yalad” of the OT (which is only said about Jesus in Psalm 2:7 – to my recollection) that distinguishes Jesus, but the “monogenes” of the NT. It is this Greek word that speaks of Jesus being the ONLY begotten Son of God.
That tells me that any other mention of God “begetting” nations or people in the OT means that God “brought them forth”, but in a different way than He brought forth His “only begotten Son”.
For example, God calls Israel His “firstborn” in the OT, but we know that angels and Adam came way before the nation of Israel, right? So “firstborn” takes on a different meaning in this case because of the other things we know.
Lightenup put it nicely a while back. She said: “Firstborn always has the default meaning of “the one born first”………….UNLESS………….there is clear context to the contrary.
When Israel is called God's firstborn, there is clear context to the contrary of the default meaning. When Jesus is called God's firstborn, I have found no context telling us it isn't the default meaning of “the one born first”.
peace,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 27 2011,08:29) Ha ha that is so funny. You all believe in a literal lake of fire.
Actually it is the same fire that will eventually destroy the heavens and Earth.Fire is one of God's tools used in destruction.
All that is wicked will eventually be destroyed.
The old order is passing.Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 29 2011,09:03) Bod and Mike, so do you believe then in this: Islamic Hell and Unbelievers
Koran 98:1-8
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'Koran 18:28-30
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.Koran 40:67-40:73
Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.Koran 43:74
The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves.Koran 55:41-52
That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?Koran 76:1-5
For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire…Koran 73:12
We have in store for the unbelievers heavy fetters and a blazing fire, choking food and harrowing torment: on the day when the earth shall quiver with all its mountains, and the mountains crumble into heaps of shifting sand.Koran 77:20-77:50
Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels…Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men…”Koran 44:40-49
..The fruit of the Zaqqum tree shall be the unbelievers's fruit. Like dregs of oil, like scalding water, it shall simmer in his belly. A voice will cry: 'Seize him and drag him into the depths of Hell. Then pour out scalding water over his head, saying: “Taste this, illustrious and honourable man! This is the punishment which you have doubted.”Koran 52:1-52:15
..On that day they shall be sternly thrown into the fire of Hell, and a voice will say to them: 'This is the Fire which you denied…Burn in its flames. It is the same whether or not you show forbearance. You shall be rewarded according to your deeds.'Koran 31-37
And burn ye him in the blazing fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits. This was he that would not believe in allah Most high amd would not encourage the feeding of the indignant. So no friend hath he here this day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds.Koran 56:52-56
Ye shall surely taste of the tree Zaqqum. Then will ye fill your insides therwith, and drink boiling water on top of it. Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst. Such will be their entertainment on the day of Requital!Koran 69:30-37
We shall say: 'Lay hold of him and bind him. Burn him in the fie of Hell, then fasten him with a chain seventy cubits long. For he did not believe Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Today he shall be friendless here; filth shall be his food, the filth which sinners eat…Koran 2:39
Those who reject faith shall be the companions of the Fire.Koran 2:89-90
The curse of Allah is on the unbelievers… humiliating is the punishment.Koran 70:15-16
The fire of Hell will pluck out his being right to the skull..Koran 5:10
As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell.
Sounds like the Catholic doctrine of everlasting suffering x 10.Both these likely found that fear is a useful weapon to get people to submit to them.
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 29 2011,09:57) Example, the incense of the saints which rises up forever is the prayers of the saints.
Just like the smoke of torment RISES UP in the same way, which is the torment of the sinners – on earth.See that?
Yeah I can see that.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 29 2011,10:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2011,20:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,10:10) Hi BD, I agree with your post. And I believe Jesus was the first being ever created by God. I believe that all other things were then subsequently created by God through Jesus. I believe that Jesus was existing in this cushy position next to his God before he was sent on a mission to earth – the success of which depended upon him being flesh for a while.
I don't know why God chose to use the word “begotten” to describe how His Son came to exist. I suppose it was to set Jesus apart as His very own – different from any subsequent creations that came later through Jesus……..to distinguish him from Adam, the nation of Israel, and anyone else called a son of God.
But in scripture, Jesus is said to have been begotten, born, created, and brought forth. He is said to have had an origin and to have been the beginning of God's creation.
So I don't have the Trinitarian hang-up about Jesus having existed from forever – or about him being the God he is the Son of.
I do consider that since his creation, he has truly been God's only directly created Son, and that he existed as such long before he was ever sent to earth.
Hi Mike,So I see your point but what does it mean to you when it says in scripture:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.Here God is clearly not talking about Jesus but the word begat is used so how is it Jesus is the only begotten. Let me make clear I love Jesus greatly and am not trying to undermine his true position and glory all I want to do is clarify
Hi Asana,The Hebrew word “yalad” simply means “brought forth into existence”. It is most often related to natural childbirth, but is also used metaphorically. For instance, in Gen 50:23, the phrase “yalad Joseph's knees” was a Hebrew saying that meant Joseph adopted his grandchildren as his own and left them an inheritance.
Anyway, it is not so much the “yalad” of the OT (which is only said about Jesus in Psalm 2:7 – to my recollection) that distinguishes Jesus, but the “monogenes” of the NT. It is this Greek word that speaks of Jesus being the ONLY begotten Son of God.
That tells me that any other mention of God “begetting” nations or people in the OT means that God “brought them forth”, but in a different way than He brought forth His “only begotten Son”.
For example, God calls Israel His “firstborn” in the OT, but we know that angels and Adam came way before the nation of Israel, right? So “firstborn” takes on a different meaning in this case because of the other things we know.
Lightenup put it nicely a while back. She said: “Firstborn always has the default meaning of “the one born first”………….UNLESS………….there is clear context to the contrary.
When Israel is called God's firstborn, there is clear context to the contrary of the default meaning. When Jesus is called God's firstborn, I have found no context telling us it isn't the default meaning of “the one born first”.
peace,
mike
As I said before Jesus is a unique creation and I think the word begotten was put there as a clue because It has been revealed to me that Jesus was The ONLY and First BORN of BODY SON in other words God said be and Jesus was conceived in the Womb of Mary a VirginThe first Adam was born from the Earth that was Virgin The Second Adam was Born of A virgin from Earth. The one and only son birthed from a Word and it was “BE”
Adam was formed from the earth{below) and God breathed the breath of life in him Jesus came from the breath of God(above) and the Word became Flesh
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