Reason and Religion

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Jan. 13 2012,04:51)

How is it you say……

Quote

……TK

Can you read??
You say things I do not say,do looking to say that I am a liar ??

Pierre

January 12, 2012 at 12:11 pm#271947

ftk

Participant

Pierre: Whether I can read or not makes no difference here. I “quoted” what you said! I didn't say it…you did! TK

January 12, 2012 at 5:07 pm#271963

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Jan. 12 2012,22:11)

Pierre: Whether I can read or not makes no difference here. I “quoted” what you said! I didn't say it…you did! TK

Hi ftk

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

It doesn't mean what it says it's “a spiritual sword”

or when the bible says

Exodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Pierre will say that they just didn't follow the rules thats just how it is.

Now if you take a sentence like:

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #89)

Suddenly Pierre says it's evil, Ed does this to

January 12, 2012 at 7:24 pm#271972

Ed J

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,20:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,14:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,14:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,14:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,13:43)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,13:03)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,12:38)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,12:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:22)

I did, Peter wasn't there he went out and wept bitterly, no one was there according to the scriptures that must have been fulfilled.

I think Ed meant in light of your claim that they all fled, and therefore couldn't have come back later.

The fact that Peter DID come back to Jesus after he fled refutes your “proof” that none of them attended the crucifixion.

How did Peter come back to Jesus, The next time they saw Jesus they were scared and thought they were seeing a ghost but Jesus reassured them that HE WAS NOT A GHOST and that HE WAS FLESH AND BONE he was like it's me I'M NOT DEAD and I'M HUNGRY

Hi BD,

If an imposter was crucified as is the claim of the 'book of fraud',
what do you say about the account of the holes in his hand's and side?

Thomas said: “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into
the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:25)

John 20:27 Then saith [Jesus] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Is this just yet another point you want to pretend is not there?

B'shem (in the Name of)
YHVH (the everlasting God)

No , it's there but it's only in John where everything is super divine and he has a super one and only connection with Jesus

Hi BD,

Shall we pretend that this verse does not exist as well?

Luke 24:38-39 And [Jesus] said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me,
and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

B'shem
YHVH

So are you saying that a resurrected body will still have scars of the old body?

Now keep in mind Jesus didn't say here are the print of the nails he simply said here are my hands and my side, stop disbelieving. Do you think Jesus was walking around like a zombie with an open wound on his side and holes in his hands and feet?

Hi BD,

The bible is clear, Jesus' certainly had his crucifixion scars.
But perhaps we will not have ours, because of this verse…

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Consider carefully the wording I have highlighted.

B'shem
YHVH

So you are thinking that Jesus was standing there with a gaping gash in his side, holes in his hand and asking for food and drink?

Then you claim that this is a resurrected body?

It seems clear that Jesus is showing him no wounds unless you really believe Jesus told Thomas to put his hand in an open wound, no it makes sense that Jesus is saying touch my side touch my hands it is me the Jesus you know and I am alive

Hi BD,

It seems you will do anything to discredit the bible
in an attempt to bolster the 'book of fraud'; right?

B'shem
YHVH

January 12, 2012 at 9:20 pm#271990

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 13 2012,05:24)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,20:48)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,14:52)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,14:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,14:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,13:43)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2012,13:03)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,12:38)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,12:27)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,19:22)

I did, Peter wasn't there he went out and wept bitterly, no one was there according to the scriptures that must have been fulfilled.

I think Ed meant in light of your claim that they all fled, and therefore couldn't have come back later.

The fact that Peter DID come back to Jesus after he fled refutes your “proof” that none of them attended the crucifixion.

Hi BD,

If an imposter was crucified as is the claim of the 'book of fraud',
what do you say about the account of the holes in his hand's and side?

Thomas said: “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into
the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:25)

John 20:27 Then saith [Jesus] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Is this just yet another point you want to pretend is not there?

B'shem (in the Name of)
YHVH (the everlasting God)

No , it's there but it's only in John where everything is super divine and he has a super one and only connection with Jesus

Hi BD,

Shall we pretend that this verse does not exist as well?

B'shem
YHVH

So are you saying that a resurrected body will still have scars of the old body?

Hi BD,

The bible is clear, Jesus' certainly had his crucifixion scars.
But perhaps we will not have ours, because of this verse…

Consider carefully the wording I have highlighted.

B'shem
YHVH

So you are thinking that Jesus was standing there with a gaping gash in his side, holes in his hand and asking for food and drink?

Then you claim that this is a resurrected body?

Hi BD,

It seems you will do anything to discredit the bible
in an attempt to bolster the 'book of fraud'; right?

B'shem
YHVH

This is not about discrediting the Bible or putting the Quran in a comparison with the Bible remember I don't believe in different gods like you, I am simply examing different revelations as they progressed so I can have a fuller picture of the knowledge that God has shared over time.

Each time progree occurs there are some who have trouble giving up preconceived notions

It's like understanding 5 + 5 or 3 – 2
but totally resisting -5 – +2
and really freaking out with x – 2n = 23

January 14, 2012 at 4:07 pm#272287

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,20:40)

No it is not true and you have attempted to change the scriptures Jesus that after he sent them out they would not go through all the cities before he returns in glory and yet you think it means something else please tell me what Jesus meant?

Where are you seeing “in glory” in Matt 10:23?

Jesus wasn't talking about his second coming in that verse, Asana. He was saying, “Go here and there, and we'll meet later”.

January 14, 2012 at 4:10 pm#272289

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,20:42)

No scripture tells me that, but if they had seen him previously they wouldn't have been afraid would they?

Well, there's part of the problem. Try not adding to the scriptures.

Are you suggesting that if they watched him die, they would have been less freaked out when they saw him alive again?

January 14, 2012 at 4:17 pm#272290

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,21:22)

So are you saying that a resurrected body will still have scars of the old body?

The resurrected body of those going off into everlasting heavenly life will be a new, glorious, spiritual body like the one Jesus NOW has.

But not only did Jesus have to die and be raised to heaven, he also had to display himself as raised for 40 days on earth before ascending to heaven. For this reason, Jesus alone was resurrected with the same body in which he died, complete with the scars and holes from his crucifixion.

Thomas actually put his hand into the hole from the spear, Asana.

January 14, 2012 at 4:27 pm#272291

Blocked

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 12 2012,04:38)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,13:46)

I was being serious to, But Mike is a Christian so he doesn't have to take you seriously because you guys can be as many versions of Christianity and disagree on any point it's like the “Make up your own rules religion”

That has been my observation as well.

Tim

Sad but true. Many so-called “Christians” make up their own version of the scriptures.

Asana, you have as much right as any of us to laugh off Ed's sometimes ridiculous, unscriptural understandings. But only when using the scriptures themselves to refute those understandings.

But lately, I've been seeing you “explain away” plain and simple scriptural words because they don't fit in with Mohammed's understanding. Isn't this the same thing you are calling Ed to task for? Are you not also a member of a “Make up your own rules Religion”?

January 14, 2012 at 5:46 pm#272303

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2012,02:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 11 2012,20:40)

Where are you seeing “in glory” in Matt 10:23?

Jesus wasn't talking about his second coming in that verse, Asana. He was saying, “Go here and there, and we'll meet later”.

Hi Mike

If that were true he wouldn't have also said:

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

and before you try to resist that clear verse note the one before it

Matthew 16:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Of course that didn't happen as of yet but also none that were standing there are alive today unless you consider that for Jesus to be right he himself could be still alive today if he was not Killed or Crucified

He difinitely was talking about his second coming and thought it would be soon

January 14, 2012 at 6:30 pm#272315

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2012,02:27)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 12 2012,04:38)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2012,13:46)

That has been my observation as well.

Tim

Sad but true. Many so-called “Christians” make up their own version of the scriptures.

Asana, you have as much right as any of us to laugh off Ed's sometimes ridiculous, unscriptural understandings. But only when using the scriptures themselves to refute those understandings.

Hi Mike,

I believe BD is pointing his finger at both of us, not just me.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 14, 2012 at 7:07 pm#272321

Blocked

Asana, in Matt 16, Jesus WAS speaking about his second coming. He was NOT speaking about it in chapter 10.

But you quoted this verse:
Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Paul also comments about this. He says that not all will “taste death”, but some will simply be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

But then Paul points out later that Jesus most definitely “tasted death” for all of us.

Asana, some people, like Enoch and Elijah, didn't have to “taste death”. They went directly from life on earth to life alongside God, in heaven. They skipped the trip to Hades. I assume Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Moses were also among those who were called to God the second their last human breath expired – without actually “tasting death”.

This is why Jesus can be the firstborn from the dead even though others who lived in the past are still alive. It is because Jesus is the first one who actually “tasted death” and was subsequently raised to eternal life. He is the firstborn among many brethren, because that will be the case for virtually everyone to follow.

But there are a few, like the ones I mentioned earlier by name, and those who are killed as a direct result of refusing to deny the name and gospel of our Lord and his God, who go right from life on earth to life in heaven – without ever tasting death. (Some of those are the souls under the alter in Revelation.)

peace,
mike

January 14, 2012 at 8:42 pm#272353

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2012,10:07)

Quote (ftk @ Jan. 12 2012,22:11)

Pierre: Whether I can read or not makes no difference here. I “quoted” what you said! I didn't say it…you did! TK

Hi ftk

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

It doesn't mean what it says it's “a spiritual sword”

or when the bible says

Pierre will say that they just didn't follow the rules thats just how it is.

Now if you take a sentence like:

Suddenly Pierre says it's evil, Ed does this to

bod

Quote

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

let see it in this way;God is the creator of his creation ,he is by all means the master ,right ? yes

the fact that we are men ,animal ,plants, or insects or what ever does no matter all are his creation ,can God do what he wants with his own creation ,??YES it belong to him ,

when men start to be corrupt on the earth did that change any thing ? NO

at one point God find that some men were doing good and were looking for him ,this was pleasing him ,so he granted them things ,like promised them that their offspring would receive the land on the other side of the Jordan river ,even that there was people living there ,so the question is those people that lived there did not receive permission to live there but took it any way ,without the owner (God ) permission ,right ?? yes

so the time came for God to give the land to his chosen people but the people living there refuse to give it to them ,SO GOD TOLD HIS PEOPLE GO AND FIGHT THOSE PEOPLE AND I WILL BE FIGHTING WITH YOU ,THIS IS WHAT THEY DID AND SO KILLED ALL THE PEOPLE AS IT WAS ASK FROM THEM TO DO ,
THIS IS NOT MURDER THIS IS JUSTICE.

WHEN GOD WILL DESTROY ALL WICKEDNESS FROM THE PLANET THIS WILL BE JUSTICE NOT MURDER ,

MURDER IS NOT JUSTICE ,IT IS TAKE AWAY RIGHTS THAT ARE NOT YOURS,

Pierre

January 14, 2012 at 10:09 pm#272367

Ed J

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2012,03:07)

Quote (ftk @ Jan. 12 2012,22:11)

Pierre: Whether I can read or not makes no difference here. I “quoted” what you said! I didn't say it…you did! TK

Hi ftk

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

It doesn't mean what it says it's “a spiritual sword”

or when the bible says

Pierre will say that they just didn't follow the rules thats just how it is.

Now if you take a sentence like:

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #89)

Suddenly Pierre says it's evil, Ed does this to

Hi BD,

You can't hide from God's word! Muhammad taught his muslim followers that the answer is always murder and death.
(Isa 28:18-20) “your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time
that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night:
and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man
can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.”

“YHVH is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble,
and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them,
The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish
from the earth, and from under these heavens.” (Jeremiah 10:10-11)

B'shem
YHVH

January 15, 2012 at 12:09 am#272380

Participant

bod

Quote

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

the greatest violence as been made by Adam and Eve they have dragged all their offspring into dead ,billions of people

Pierre

January 15, 2012 at 12:10 am#272381

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2012,05:07)

Asana, in Matt 16, Jesus WAS speaking about his second coming. He was NOT speaking about it in chapter 10.

But you quoted this verse:
Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Paul also comments about this. He says that not all will “taste death”, but some will simply be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

But then Paul points out later that Jesus most definitely “tasted death” for all of us.

peace,
mike

WOW Mike

did you just make the context of Jesus saying “SOME STANDING HERE shall not taste death” into some sort of meaning other than physical death which he was talking about if he wasn't why would some taste death and others not when they were all his followers he was speaking to?

January 15, 2012 at 12:12 am#272382

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 15 2012,06:42)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2012,10:07)

Quote (ftk @ Jan. 12 2012,22:11)

Pierre: Whether I can read or not makes no difference here. I “quoted” what you said! I didn't say it…you did! TK

Hi ftk

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

It doesn't mean what it says it's “a spiritual sword”

or when the bible says

Pierre will say that they just didn't follow the rules thats just how it is.

Now if you take a sentence like:

Suddenly Pierre says it's evil, Ed does this to

bod

Quote

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

let see it in this way;God is the creator of his creation ,he is by all means the master ,right ? yes

the fact that we are men ,animal ,plants, or insects or what ever does no matter all are his creation ,can God do what he wants with his own creation ,??YES it belong to him ,

when men start to be corrupt on the earth did that change any thing ? NO

WHEN GOD WILL DESTROY ALL WICKEDNESS FROM THE PLANET THIS WILL BE JUSTICE NOT MURDER ,

MURDER IS NOT JUSTICE ,IT IS TAKE AWAY RIGHTS THAT ARE NOT YOURS,

Pierre

Okay

So why is it you assume that when others get Justice it is murder when you disagree with them?

You are a hypocrite

January 15, 2012 at 12:15 am#272386

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 15 2012,08:09)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2012,03:07)

Quote (ftk @ Jan. 12 2012,22:11)

Pierre: Whether I can read or not makes no difference here. I “quoted” what you said! I didn't say it…you did! TK

Hi ftk

Pierre, does not believe any violence in the bible as actual violence he will make any excuse to pretend that God always wants peace. So when God's Christ says:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

It doesn't mean what it says it's “a spiritual sword”

or when the bible says

Pierre will say that they just didn't follow the rules thats just how it is.

Now if you take a sentence like:

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #89)

Suddenly Pierre says it's evil, Ed does this to

Hi BD,

B'shem
YHVH

It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #29)

Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): “Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #191)

Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #1)

It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, “Be,” behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things).
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #73)

All who know the Creator know these verses cannot be about any other

January 15, 2012 at 12:18 am#272387