Reason and Religion

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 04 2012,22:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2012,11:06)

also human sacrifice was not allowed in Israel according to the law of God ,so it is understood that she entered the service in the temple as a virgin and stay there all her remaining live ,

Pierre

I would find it easier to understand your love of the Hebrew version of God if it were not necessary for you to continually make excuses for his behavior.

Tim

I have the same issues with their mental gymnastics, To me if it says God does not allow Human Sacrifice there are 2 possibilities about Jesus either he was MURDERED simply because the people wanted him dead because Jesus himelf didn't feel like a sacrifice or he would not have said:

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Or God saved him from the cross as the Quran says:

Sura #3

54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55 Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme;……

Sura #4

157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Also the Quran explains that the commandments were community commandments it does not bar violence against others just like we have laws in America that we shall not kill one another but that does not include others we are at war with

If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #93)

O you who believe! do not devour your property among yourselves falsely, except that it be trading by your mutual consent; and do not kill your people; surely Allah is Merciful to you.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #29)

January 4, 2012 at 4:32 pm#270748

terraricca

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2012,09:30)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 04 2012,22:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2012,11:06)

also human sacrifice was not allowed in Israel according to the law of God ,so it is understood that she entered the service in the temple as a virgin and stay there all her remaining live ,

Pierre

I would find it easier to understand your love of the Hebrew version of God if it were not necessary for you to continually make excuses for his behavior.

Tim

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Or God saved him from the cross as the Quran says:

Sura #3

Sura #4

bod

Quote

this quote is meaningless

Pierre

January 4, 2012 at 5:25 pm#270752

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2012,14:41)

terraricca wrote:

Quote

Some translate “or,” suggesting that Jephthah makes a distinction between humans and animals. According to this view, if a human comes through the door, then Jephthah will commit him/her to the Lord’s service, but if an animal comes through the doors, he will offer it up as a sacrifice.

That is quite a stretch. It's probably best to go with how 90% of the scholars translated it. Don't you think?

Hi WIT,

If you reject God, you are not going with any of the translators; correct?

God bless
Ed J

January 4, 2012 at 5:28 pm#270753

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,17:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 04 2012,11:10)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2012,20:57)

That is true so I will concede that the vision is centered around that time from there I can only say that if John had the preconceived notion that Jesus was dead his vision would also reflect that but I would also conclude that if we hold it within that context all talk of the Antichrist, beast and False prophet was within the mind of John as certain people at that time and could not apply to the future.

Hi Asana,

Revelation starts with the announcement that these are things that “must soon take place”. (Rev 1:1)

Before getting to the revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Jesus first gives commendations and warnings to present churches. There are some promises of what WILL happen IF these churches continue to do good or bad, but other than that, the first three chapters are not the revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN. But, starting with 4:1, which says, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this”, the rest is about future events from John's standpoint.

So the “I was dead” was said in the present, and can not be ascribed to the future events later described, IMO.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2012,20:57)

But let me make one thing really clear I don't believe that salvation relies on Jesus being dead, killed or crucified. I believe that Salvation comes by the Grace of God and I believe that believing in Jesus means to believe in what he said his mission was to do:

I also believe in the latter part of your statement, but I don't discount the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

In the days of old, the Israelite priest would lay his hands on the sacrificial animal, symbolizing the putting of Israel’s' sins upon that animal. Then the slaying of the animal carrying the sins was God's way of atoning for those sins; or blotting them out from His memory.

Jesus was God's own sacrificial lamb. All the sins of humanity were laid upon this Lamb, and when he died, the sins of humanity died right along with him. They were blotted out, or atoned for, by our God Himself – through His own sacrificial lamb.

If Jesus was not really sacrificed, then those sins were not really atoned for. And if Jesus wasn't really raised from the dead, then we are to be pitied more than any other men, because our hope for a resurrection to everlasting life has not been confirmed by God. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.

Asana, you are making the writers of the NT, and most of us here on HN, out to be false witnesses about God.

peace,
mike

I understand your point but you're not getting the full picture because when you say

Quote

Then the slaying of the animal

This is the part you get wrong because the goat for atonement is not killed it is set free presented Alive before Jehovah as a SCAPEGOAT:

Leviticus 16:10
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

This is what I have been explaining over and over the mystery of the Baptism of Jesus

Leviticus 16:21
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Jesus was being baptized for the sins of Israel Jesus had no sins so John laid his hands on Jesus and confessed the sins of Israel and Jesus was then led out to the wilderness and once he passed the temptations of the devil he had completed his mission

Hi BD,

There are two goats, one is sacrificed and the other is sent away into the desert.

B'shem
YHVH

January 4, 2012 at 6:20 pm#270756

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,06:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2012,14:35)

Hi BD,

So now you do admit that Jesus was resurrected? (1Cor.15:17)

1Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;
ye are yet in your sins.

B'shem (in the Name of)
YHVH (the everlasting God)

Let me demonstrate something here let's say I agreed with everything you have said for the sake of argument and I accept that Jesus was killed by Crucifixion on the cross and was then resurrected on the third day.

Now the scripture you just pointed out says if Christ not be raised their faith is in vain and they are yet in their sins

However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

Hi BD,

You believe “The 'lah'” put an imposter on the cross to save Jesus,
but you don't believe that YHVH put Jesus on the cross to save you?
Isn't this inconstancy on your part, believing in a sacrificial substitution?

B'shem
YHVH

January 5, 2012 at 12:06 am#270784

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,03:28)

Hi BD,

There are two goats, one is sacrificed and the other is sent away into the desert.

B'shem
YHVH

ED,

The one sent away to be presented to Jehovah ALIVE is for atonement

January 5, 2012 at 12:16 am#270785

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,04:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,06:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2012,14:35)

Hi BD,

So now you do admit that Jesus was resurrected? (1Cor.15:17)

1Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;
ye are yet in your sins.

B'shem (in the Name of)
YHVH (the everlasting God)

Now the scripture you just pointed out says if Christ not be raised their faith is in vain and they are yet in their sins

However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

Hi BD,

B'shem
YHVH

I didn't say an imposter I am only quoting what it says how it was done is not my concern:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

There is no reason for ALMIGHTY GOD to sacrifice anything to HIMSELF HE OWNS EVERYTHING

Psalm 50:7-14

New International Version (NIV)

7 “Listen, my people, and I will speak;
I will testify against you, Israel:
I am God, your God.
8 I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices
or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me.
9 I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.
13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?

14 “Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,

Why can't you just say thanks to God and be grateful?

January 5, 2012 at 12:41 am#270790

terraricca

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2012,17:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,04:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,06:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2012,14:35)

Hi BD,

So now you do admit that Jesus was resurrected? (1Cor.15:17)

1Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;
ye are yet in your sins.

B'shem (in the Name of)
YHVH (the everlasting God)

Now the scripture you just pointed out says if Christ not be raised their faith is in vain and they are yet in their sins

However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

Hi BD,

B'shem
YHVH

I didn't say an imposter I am only quoting what it says how it was done is not my concern:

There is no reason for ALMIGHTY GOD to sacrifice anything to HIMSELF HE OWNS EVERYTHING

Psalm 50:7-14

New International Version (NIV)

14 “Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,

Why can't you just say thanks to God and be grateful?

bod

Ps 50:14 Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,
Ps 50:15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”
Ps 50:16 But to the wicked, God says:
“What right have you to recite my laws
or take my covenant on your lips?

why do you not serve the true God the Most high Jehovah

Pierre

January 5, 2012 at 1:02 am#270793

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,00:59)

This is the part you get wrong because the goat for atonement is not killed it is set free presented Alive before Jehovah as a SCAPEGOAT:

Leviticus 16
7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat. 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.

15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain……….

16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been.

21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.

Asana, I see what you are saying. But it seems that one goat was killed while the other was released. I don't understand all the reasons.

It also seems that goats were the preferred sin sacrifice, although lambs, bulls, and doves were also used at times.

I don't know what it has to do with it, if anything, but Jesus is not said to be the sacrificial GOAT of God; he is the LAMB of God. If he is not a “goat”, then there's no chance he could have been the “scapegoat”. And all except for the scapegoat were sacrificed.

peace,
mike

January 5, 2012 at 1:13 am#270794

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2012,10:41)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2012,17:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2012,04:20)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,06:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2012,14:35)

Hi BD,

So now you do admit that Jesus was resurrected? (1Cor.15:17)

1Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;
ye are yet in your sins.

B'shem (in the Name of)
YHVH (the everlasting God)

Now the scripture you just pointed out says if Christ not be raised their faith is in vain and they are yet in their sins

However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

Hi BD,

B'shem
YHVH

I didn't say an imposter I am only quoting what it says how it was done is not my concern:

There is no reason for ALMIGHTY GOD to sacrifice anything to HIMSELF HE OWNS EVERYTHING

Psalm 50:7-14

New International Version (NIV)

14 “Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,

Why can't you just say thanks to God and be grateful?

bod

why do you not serve the true God the Most high Jehovah

Pierre

Ps 50:15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”

Jesus was delivered on his day of trouble, God saved him from death on the cross?

January 5, 2012 at 1:17 am#270795

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,01:02)

I think it's interesting that you guys will accept any alternative to Jephthah's daughter being Sacrificed (Consider I was the first to bring up the point that she didn't get sacrificed) But you will not consider Jesus being not sacrificed, would it not be equally horrendous?

I said “interesting” and “might apply”, Asana. I did not say I accept that explanation. Rather, I mostly agree with Tim that people are making excuses and imagining things not written to protect their understanding of God's righteousness.

Jephthah said “BURNT offering”, right? And then he fulfilled that vow, right? I don't see how remaining a virgin in service to God would fulfill a BURNT offering vow.

Also, here is something similar to what Pierre posted. This one is from NETNotes:
Some translate “or,” suggesting that Jephthah makes a distinction between humans and animals. According to this view, if a human comes through the door, then Jephthah will commit him/her to the Lord’s service, but if an animal comes through the doors, he will offer it up as a sacrifice. However, it is far more likely that the Hebrew construction (vav [ו] + perfect) specifies how the subject will become the Lord’s, that is, by being offered up as a sacrifice.

January 5, 2012 at 1:23 am#270798

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,11:02)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,00:59)

This is the part you get wrong because the goat for atonement is not killed it is set free presented Alive before Jehovah as a SCAPEGOAT:

15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain……….

16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been.

Asana, I see what you are saying. But it seems that one goat was killed while the other was released. I don't understand all the reasons.

It also seems that goats were the preferred sin sacrifice, although lambs, bulls, and doves were also used at times.

peace,
mike

The term scapegoat has more importance then the animal used obviously Jesus is not a lamb, goat or any other animal the point is the sins are laid upon the animal that is to be presented ALIVE before Jehovah for ATONEMENT and is not killed so this is definite proof that there is atonement without Sacrifice.

Quote

He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.[/color]

This totally corresponds to John the baptist where Jesus is sent out to the desert after his baptism.

The bottom line is I have shown you atonement without Sacrifice

January 5, 2012 at 1:42 am#270801

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2012,11:13)

Jesus was delivered on his day of trouble, God saved him from death on the cross?

Hi BD,

You put a 'book of fraud' above Jesus' words?
John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. …What do you say about this?

B'shem
YHVH

January 5, 2012 at 1:45 am#270802

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,01:02)

Hi BD,

“The Word” of God says Jesus was resurrected three days later, does it not?

B'shem
YHVH

January 5, 2012 at 1:56 am#270812

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,18:23)

The bottom line is I have shown you atonement without Sacrifice

Wrong. You have pointed to where TWO goats are brought forth, and ONE of them is sacrificed for the sins of Israel, while the OTHER one is let go.

You'd have a chance at something here if there were TWO Jesuses, one of whom died and one of whom was scapegoated.

Asana, Jesus is the LAMB of God. Were any lambs ever scapegoated?

January 5, 2012 at 1:59 am#270814

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2012,18:42)

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
Father, save me from this hour?

Surely Jesus was in on the plan to fool others into thinking he died, right?

Kind of makes you wonder why he was troubled then.

January 5, 2012 at 2:00 am#270815

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2012,11:56)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,18:23)

The bottom line is I have shown you atonement without Sacrifice

Wrong. You have pointed to where TWO goats are brought forth, and ONE of them is sacrificed for the sins of Israel, while the OTHER one is let go.

You'd have a chance at something here if there were TWO Jesuses, one of whom died and one of whom was scapegoated.

Asana, Jesus is the LAMB of God. Were any lambs ever scapegoated?

Hi Mike,

Correction. BD only mentioned the scapegoat.
I mentioned that there were “TWO” goats.

B'shem
YHVH

January 5, 2012 at 2:23 am#270822