Reason and Religion

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2011,06:48)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,12:43) Really?  Human sacrifice?  No clear opinion?  Wow. I also don't know how God will deal with your disbelief in Him.  Why would you think I would know God's mind?  I follow Micah 6:8 – Love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with your God.  I don't need to know God's every thought on every subject in order to do that, right?  He has never requested me personally to sacrifice a human being.  If and when He does, I'll let you know. Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,12:43) I noticed that you skipped over the following part of post. I said: Quote Can you name any other “leader of God's people” who was not immediately sanctioned for disobeying God or committing some sinful act?  Jepthah was never rebuked for this action by anyone at anytime ever!  In fact, he was rewarded with more and more victories in battle. Looks to me like what he did was well within the bounds of the law, and Leviticus 27:28-29 is the only part of the law that speaks to his actions. Until you rise to that challenge, it will be clear that you don't really have anything but an apologetic spin to stand on. I'm sorry, I didn't think you could possibly be serious with that question.  Which one of 30 kings would you like me to start with?  Manasseh ruled 55 years over Israel although he was wicked in the eyes of God.

So, let me see if I have this straight.  According to your understanding of God:

Lying is bad.
Stealing is bad.
Murder is bad.
Human sacrifice of one's virgin daughter is a gray area?

By the way, good catch on my challenge.  I stand corrected.  What I should have said was:

Name one leader who was said to have God's spirit on him who was not immediately punished for disobeying God or committing some sinful act.

Remember, right before Jepthah made his vow, the “Spirit of the Lord” came upon him.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2011,14:31)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 19 2011,12:54) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 18 2011,06:50) where did  Jepthah burned his daughter ?? you must have dreamed this ;you are a joker right?? Judges 11:29: Quote Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah … Judges 11:30: Quote And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD … Judges 11:31: Quote … whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me … I will offer it up as a burnt offering. Judges 11:34: Quote When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing … Judges 11:39: Quote … he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. Joke? No. Scripture?  Yes? Hi You show me the scriptures ,that shows Jepthah vow, This is not what I ask you, I ask you where it says he burn his daughter ?? Pierre

You can not be serious.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2012,14:35)

Hi BD, So now you do admit that Jesus was resurrected? (1Cor.15:17) 1Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. B'shem (in the Name of) YHVH (the everlasting God)

Let me demonstrate something here let's say I agreed with everything you have said for the sake of argument and I accept that Jesus was killed by Crucifixion on the cross and was then resurrected on the third day.

Now the scripture you just pointed out says if Christ not be raised their faith is in vain and they are yet in their sins

However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

[terraricca]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2012,09:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2011,14:31) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 19 2011,12:54) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 18 2011,06:50) where did  Jepthah burned his daughter ?? you must have dreamed this ;you are a joker right?? Judges 11:29: Quote Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah … Judges 11:30: Quote And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD … Judges 11:31: Quote … whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me … I will offer it up as a burnt offering. Judges 11:34: Quote When Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with timbrels and dancing … Judges 11:39: Quote … he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. Joke? No. Scripture?  Yes? Hi You show me the scriptures ,that shows Jepthah vow, This is not what I ask you, I ask you where it says he burn his daughter ?? Pierre You can not be serious.

whatistrue

no ,I am ,deadly serious, Jepthah never burned hid daughter,but she was given to the service of God upon his vow,

we are judged by our words ,NO?
so be careful of what you wish for.

Pierre

[terraricca]

bod

Quote

However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

how can a man of God be a sinner if all he does is at God request ?

Pierre

[WhatIsTrue]

terraricca,

And now it's my turn to ask you, “Where is it written that Jepthah's daughter 'was given to the service of God'”?

I am quoting directly from the passage in question.

Quote

… I will offer it up as a burnt offering. … he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed.

What's your source?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2012,06:41)

bod Quote However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins? how can a man of God be a sinner if all he does is at God request ? Pierre

I agree!

[terraricca]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,15:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2012,06:41) bod Quote However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins? how can a man of God be a sinner if all he does is at God request ? Pierre I agree!

bod

this is not the case of Muhammad in 630 AD

it is Christ ,the son of God ;that is the true messiah,and prophet fore told by Moses ,

anyone else is the false prophet ,

Pierre

[bodhitharta]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2012,10:21)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,15:24) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 04 2012,06:41) bod Quote However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins? how can a man of God be a sinner if all he does is at God request ? Pierre I agree! bod this is not the case of Muhammad in 630 AD it is Christ ,the son of God ;that is the true messiah,and prophet fore told by Moses , anyone else is the false prophet , Pierre

Yes Christ is the Messiah what does that have to do with someone being a Prophet?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 03 2012,09:57)

By the way, good catch on my challenge.  I stand corrected.  What I should have said was: Name one leader who was said to have God's spirit on him who was not immediately punished for disobeying God or committing some sinful act. Remember, right before Jephthah made his vow, the “Spirit of the Lord” came upon him.

29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD…….

It must have taken some days to cross Gilead and Manasseh.  Do you suppose the Spirit of Jehovah remained on him the entire time?  And if so, was it the Spirit that made the vow?  Or did Jephthah still have control of his own brain?

WIT, I really don't know what you want from me.  I know that you want to say, “Ha ha!  Your God is bad because He accepted a human sacrifice!”  But that is not said anywhere in the scripture.  In Deuteronomy 18:10, Jehovah expressly forbids the sacrifice of children.  And in Kings, Isaiah and Ezekiel, Jehovah explicitly condemns the Israelites for sacrificing their children to Molech.  Here is one of those condemnations:
Jeremiah 32:35
They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

WIT, Jehovah's Spirit was upon King David much of his life, yet he still stole a soldier's wife, and then plotted the death of that soldier to cover up his first sin.  So apparently having God's Spirit upon you at certain times doesn't mean God is now thinking for you.

King Manasseh was allowed to rule for 55 years, although after his death, God attributed the destruction of Israel in part to the sins with which Manasseh caused Israel to sin.  And there are relatively few instances in scripture where a punishment is handed down immediately upon the sinner.  Most punishments happened YEARS after the sin.

The bottom line is that I just don't know the answer to your question.  Did God approve of Jephthah's sacrifice?  I don't know.  Was Jephthah later punished for sinning in this matter?  I don't know.  Will this action be held against him on judgment day?  I don't know.

What I do know is that God never ASKED Jephthah to make the vow, or to follow through with it.  Saul made a similar vow which would have caused the death of his son Jonathan, but wasn't allowed by the army to follow through.  How did God feel about Saul's vow?  I don't know.  How did God feel about Saul not following through with it?  I don't know.

Sorry dude.  I just don't know the answer you're looking for.

[terraricca]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2012,15:02)

terraricca, And now it's my turn to ask you, “Where is it written that Jepthah's daughter 'was given to the service of God'”? I am quoting directly from the passage in question. Quote … I will offer it up as a burnt offering. … he carried out his vow with her which he had vowed. What's your source?

whatistrue

Jdg 11:36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites.
Jdg 11:37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
Jdg 11:38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry.
Jdg 11:39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite custom
Jdg 11:40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

54 tn Some translate “or,” suggesting that Jephthah makes a distinction between humans and animals. According to this view, if a human comes through the door, then Jephthah will commit him/her to the Lord’s service, but if an animal comes through the doors, he will offer it up as a sacrifice. However, it is far more likely that the Hebrew construction (vav [ו] + perfect) specifies how the subject will become the Lord’s, that is, by being offered up as a sacrifice. For similar constructions, where the apodosis of a conditional sentence has at least two perfects (each with vav) in sequence, see Gen 34:15-16; Exod 18:16.
55 tn Heb “passed over to.”

also human sacrifice was not allowed in Israel according to the law of God ,so it is understood that she entered the service in the temple as a virgin and stay there all her remaining live ,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2012,20:57)

That is true so I will concede that the vision is centered around that time from there I can only say that if John had the preconceived notion that Jesus was dead his vision would also reflect that but I would also conclude that if we hold it within that context all talk of the Antichrist, beast and False prophet was within the mind of John as certain people at that time and could not apply to the future.

Hi Asana,

Revelation starts with the announcement that these are things that “must soon take place”.  (Rev 1:1)

Before getting to the revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Jesus first gives commendations and warnings to present churches.  There are some promises of what WILL happen IF these churches continue to do good or bad, but other than that, the first three chapters are not the revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN.  But, starting with 4:1, which says, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this”, the rest is about future events from John's standpoint.

So the “I was dead” was said in the present, and can not be ascribed to the future events later described, IMO.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2012,20:57)

But let me make one thing really clear I don't believe that salvation relies on Jesus being dead, killed or crucified. I believe that Salvation comes by the Grace of God and I believe that believing in Jesus means to believe in what he said his mission was to do:

I also believe in the latter part of your statement, but I don't discount the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.  

In the days of old, the Israelite priest would lay his hands on the sacrificial animal, symbolizing the putting of Israel’s' sins upon that animal.  Then the slaying of the animal carrying the sins was God's way of atoning for those sins; or blotting them out from His memory.

Jesus was God's own sacrificial lamb.  All the sins of humanity were laid upon this Lamb, and when he died, the sins of humanity died right along with him.  They were blotted out, or atoned for, by our God Himself – through His own sacrificial lamb.

If Jesus was not really sacrificed, then those sins were not really atoned for.  And if Jesus wasn't really raised from the dead, then we are to be pitied more than any other men, because our hope for a resurrection to everlasting life has not been confirmed by God.  More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.

Asana, you are making the writers of the NT, and most of us here on HN, out to be false witnesses about God.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2012,18:06)

it is understood that she entered the service in the temple as a virgin and stay there all her remaining live

Interesting, Pierre.

I have already posted to WIT about different ways one could be “totally devoted/destroyed” to God.  And this reasoning about Jephthah's daughter might apply.

It would be nice to have a time machine, so we could go back and find out for sure, huh?  

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2012,06:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2012,14:35) Hi BD, So now you do admit that Jesus was resurrected? (1Cor.15:17) 1Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. B'shem (in the Name of) YHVH (the everlasting God) Let me demonstrate something here let's say I agreed with everything you have said for the sake of argument and I accept that Jesus was killed by Crucifixion on the cross and was then resurrected on the third day. Now the scripture you just pointed out says if Christ not be raised their faith is in vain and they are yet in their sins However wasn't it clearly mentioned before that repentance is for the remission of sins? If this is true what did John the Baptist have faith in, did he die in his sins?

Hi BD:

The Law and the Prophets were until John, and they were obeying God by faith, but none have obeyed the Law without making mistakes. All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God, and since the wages of sin is death or eternal separation from God, no one would be resurrected from the dead. The sacrifice of Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of all those who were obeying God from eternity until the ministry of Jesus and for all that have come to God through him from the time of his ministry until he comes for the church at which time all of those who were obeying God before his ministry and have died in faith will be resurrected to eternal life. Those who have died in faith since his ministry will also be resurrected from the dead to eternal life. Those who have been reconciled to God through him, and are alive at his coming for the church will be translated receiving a spiritual body and will be caught up in the air with those who have been resurrected from the dead.

Those who have died in their sins since the ministry of Jesus will be raised from the dead and will be judged according to their works 1000 years from the time of the rapture.

Those who have not been reconciled to God through Jesus and are alive at his coming for the church will be judged by the seven last plagues. They will have worshiped the Anti-Christ, and will have received the mark of the beast.

This is what the Apostle Peter stated relative to David, maybe it will help you to understand:

Quote

Act 2:29Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Act 2:30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Act 2:35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Act 2:36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Act 2:37Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Act 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Below are some additional scriptures which may help:

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Hbr 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

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Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

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Col 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; Col 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

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1Th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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2Th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2Th 2:14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

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Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19:17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Rev 19:18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. Rev 19:19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Rev 19:20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh

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Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Rev 20:6Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

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Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 04 2012,18:14)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2012,18:06) it is understood that she entered the service in the temple as a virgin and stay there all her remaining live Interesting, Pierre. I have already posted to WIT about different ways one could be “totally devoted/destroyed” to God.  And this reasoning about Jephthah's daughter might apply. It would be nice to have a time machine, so we could go back and find out for sure, huh?

Mike

Quote

It would be nice to have a time machine, so we could go back and find out for sure, huh?

yes ,it would nice, but if we look at it from Gods point of view and the call of Jephtah and the received blessing in his fight against the enemy of Israel,

and what made him make that vow ?

would it be the overwhelming joy of having be blessed or some thing else ?

[WhatIsTrue]

terraricca wrote:

Quote

Some translate “or,” suggesting that Jephthah makes a distinction between humans and animals. According to this view, if a human comes through the door, then Jephthah will commit him/her to the Lord’s service, but if an animal comes through the doors, he will offer it up as a sacrifice.

That is quite a stretch. It's probably best to go with how 90% of the scholars translated it. Don't you think?

[terraricca]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2012,21:41)

terraricca wrote: Quote Some translate “or,” suggesting that Jephthah makes a distinction between humans and animals. According to this view, if a human comes through the door, then Jephthah will commit him/her to the Lord’s service, but if an animal comes through the doors, he will offer it up as a sacrifice. That is quite a stretch.  It's probably best to go with how 90% of the scholars translated it.  Don't you think?

WHATISRUE

and that would be ???

[WhatIsTrue]

Judges 11:31:

Quote

… whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me … I will offer it up as a burnt offering.

No equivocation there.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 04 2012,11:10)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2012,20:57) That is true so I will concede that the vision is centered around that time from there I can only say that if John had the preconceived notion that Jesus was dead his vision would also reflect that but I would also conclude that if we hold it within that context all talk of the Antichrist, beast and False prophet was within the mind of John as certain people at that time and could not apply to the future. Hi Asana, Revelation starts with the announcement that these are things that “must soon take place”.  (Rev 1:1) Before getting to the revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Jesus first gives commendations and warnings to present churches.  There are some promises of what WILL happen IF these churches continue to do good or bad, but other than that, the first three chapters are not the revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN.  But, starting with 4:1, which says, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this”, the rest is about future events from John's standpoint. So the “I was dead” was said in the present, and can not be ascribed to the future events later described, IMO. Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2012,20:57) But let me make one thing really clear I don't believe that salvation relies on Jesus being dead, killed or crucified. I believe that Salvation comes by the Grace of God and I believe that believing in Jesus means to believe in what he said his mission was to do: I also believe in the latter part of your statement, but I don't discount the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.   In the days of old, the Israelite priest would lay his hands on the sacrificial animal, symbolizing the putting of Israel’s' sins upon that animal.  Then the slaying of the animal carrying the sins was God's way of atoning for those sins; or blotting them out from His memory. Jesus was God's own sacrificial lamb.  All the sins of humanity were laid upon this Lamb, and when he died, the sins of humanity died right along with him.  They were blotted out, or atoned for, by our God Himself – through His own sacrificial lamb. If Jesus was not really sacrificed, then those sins were not really atoned for.  And if Jesus wasn't really raised from the dead, then we are to be pitied more than any other men, because our hope for a resurrection to everlasting life has not been confirmed by God.  More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. Asana, you are making the writers of the NT, and most of us here on HN, out to be false witnesses about God. peace, mike

I understand your point but you're not getting the full picture because when you say

Quote

Then the slaying of the animal

This is the part you get wrong because the goat for atonement is not killed it is set free presented Alive before Jehovah as a SCAPEGOAT:

Leviticus 16:10
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

This is what I have been explaining over and over the mystery of the Baptism of Jesus

Leviticus 16:21
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Jesus was being baptized for the sins of Israel Jesus had no sins so John laid his hands on Jesus and confessed the sins of Israel and Jesus was then led out to the wilderness and once he passed the temptations of the devil he had completed his mission

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 04 2012,11:14)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2012,18:06) it is understood that she entered the service in the temple as a virgin and stay there all her remaining live Interesting, Pierre. I have already posted to WIT about different ways one could be “totally devoted/destroyed” to God.  And this reasoning about Jephthah's daughter might apply. It would be nice to have a time machine, so we could go back and find out for sure, huh?

I think it's interesting that you guys will accept any alternative to Jephthah's daughter being Sacrificed (Consider I was the first to bring up the point that she didn't get sacrificed) But you will not consider Jesus being not sacrificed, would it not be equally horrendous?

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